Bernie Sanders— the only Jewish candidate— accused of antisemitism by top Israeli official
116 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094060]what? who said anything about my state not existing? i meant "without us" in the context of severing economical and political ties.
and whether or not US presence in the ME is a good thing or not is not my business nor is it the point. the point is that without us, it's going to cost you a fuckload more to maintain the same level of power projection in the region. and you're kidding yourself if you think the US will give up on one of the most if not THE most problematic region in the world just because israel accidentally kills a few hundred civilians in one of the worlds most dense population centers fighting an enemy that wears no uniform. all the while our next door neighborhood killed about 150,000 more civilians in half a year than we did in our entire existence put together multiplied by 20 and spawned one of the most vile and problematic terrorist organizations in recent history.[/QUOTE]literally not what hes talking about
[QUOTE=Aztec;50094050]Haha, I think it's hilarious that in one post you say that the US is helping support a flourishing tech industry and in the next post you return to the fact that it's about military logistics.
And I also think it's neat that you think billions of completely wasted money couldn't potentially go to my nation's poor sector if all of our politicians weren't corrupted by your state.
I think it works like theft where your state steals money that I am working for week by week.[/QUOTE]
yeah israel has corrupted the worlds strongest state. we also steal money from your paychecks. we are literally a comic book villain made manifest.
don't blame your shitty politicians or yourself or anything. israel is single-handedly making americans poor and stealing their money.
[QUOTE]"Don’t you think that merits an apology?"[/QUOTE]
Are you really pulling the "we deserve an apology" card? I really don't know half of what's going on here but I tend to wince whenever someone outright demands an apology for any reason.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094092]yeah israel has corrupted the worlds strongest state. we also steal money from your paychecks. we are literally a comic book villain made manifest.
don't blame your shitty politicians or yourself or anything. israel is single-handedly making americans poor and stealing their money.[/QUOTE]not what hes saying
[editline]8th April 2016[/editline]
did you put all that us funding into building strawmen lmao
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094092]yeah israel has corrupted the worlds strongest state. we also steal money from your paychecks. we are literally a comic book villain made manifest.
don't blame your shitty politicians or yourself or anything. israel is single-handedly making americans poor and stealing their money.[/QUOTE]
I'm loving the sarcasm you have resorted to in lieu of an argument for why I should be wasting my money on your state.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50094078][B]I've actually not made a single post in reference to Palestine at all[/B]. You seem to be projecting there. I don't support US foriegn interests in Iraq because their purpose is solely to fund weapons contractors (the same contractors you and svinnik have been praising up and down all over this thread) who make billions and billions on things that don't help support any tangible aspect of the US economy for the average US citizen.
I would love to rather be spending money on our infrastructure, education, technology HERE.
In my city alone we've closed 5 schools because of budget cuts to education. I wonder if any of the billions that you call chump change could have prevented that.[/QUOTE]
then contact your local representative and protest about it if you care so much about your infrastructure, why are you telling me this
i'm pretty sure in a country that has a budget of over a trillion dollars, a few billion going to israel isn't the reason why 5 schools were closed in your region, but you need a scapegoat, so i admit responsibility. it was me all along. all funds have been transferred to my account using my corrupted team of american politicians tasked with stealing your money.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094120]then contact your local representative and protest about it if you care so much about your infrastructure, why are you telling me this
i'm pretty sure in a country that has a budget of over a trillion dollars, a few billion going to israel isn't the reason why 5 schools were closed in your region, but you need a scapegoat, so i admit responsibility. it was me all along. all funds have been transferred to my account using my corrupted team of american politicians tasked with stealing your money.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I really have to explain that when the US spends a disproportionate amount of money on military spending it has consequences on domestic spending. I think you already know that judging by your sudden spiral into sarcasm. Contacting local representatives isn't going to help me when the entirety of the US economy is doing actually very well but none of the money is being allocated for anything worthwhile.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094120]then contact your local representative and protest about it if you care so much about your infrastructure, why are you telling me this
i'm pretty sure in a country that has a budget of over a trillion dollars, a few billion going to israel isn't the reason why 5 schools were closed in your region, but you need a scapegoat, so i admit responsibility. it was me all along. all funds have been transferred to my account using my corrupted team of american politicians tasked with stealing your money.[/QUOTE]he is taking issue with a 'few billion' going to a country that does not need it, with an excuse of putting money into a US military that doesnt need it. him going out protesting makes no difference to the argument he is making, mr fallacyman.
[QUOTE=Tarver;50093868]I'm prett Pro-Israel but I believe Israel has gone beyond needing financial support,they can defend themselves adequetly enough against attack from their neighbhors.[/QUOTE]
I'm not even against the US providing funds for their iron dome, but it's the right wing government of theirs that keeps doing antagonizing shit that's my issue. The US has said the settlements are illegal for years yet Israel keeps doing it anyways. We tell them to try to work out agreeable deals, we even help them at the table, but they go and do illegal shit like making Palestinians defacto slave labor in the West Bank through visa manipulations. I think it is time Israel needs to be shocked away from their current course which has enabled groups like Hamas to subvert the legitimate govenment of Gaza
[QUOTE=Aztec;50094113]I'm loving the sarcasm you have resorted to in lieu of an argument for why I should be wasting my money on your state.[/QUOTE]
it was never the argument
i never tried convincing you to support my state because my state doesn't really need that support in the first place and simultaneously i merely presented some reasons as to why it is unlikely that supporting israel somehow damages the finances of your country, but alright.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094120]then contact your local representative and protest about it if you care so much about your infrastructure, why are you telling me this
i'm pretty sure in a country that has a budget of over a trillion dollars, a few billion going to israel isn't the reason why 5 schools were closed in your region, but you need a scapegoat, so i admit responsibility. it was me all along. all funds have been transferred to my account using my corrupted team of american politicians tasked with stealing your money.[/QUOTE]
The Narcissism is strong in this one.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094137]it was never the argument
i never tried convincing you to support my state because my state doesn't really need that support in the first place and simultaneously i merely presented some reasons as to why it is unlikely that supporting israel somehow damages the finances of your country, but alright.[/QUOTE]he is not saying that the relationship damages the finances of his country, he is saying that the money could be used elsewhere, that the poliical capital and effort could be used elsewhere.
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;50094133]he is taking issue with a 'few billion' going to a country that does not need it, with an excuse of putting money into a US military that doesnt need it. him going out protesting makes no difference to the argument he is making, mr fallacyman.[/QUOTE]
it makes no difference to my argument either because i wasn't arguing anything, i was trying to explain why american support of israel means absolutely nothing to the largest economic state in the world, and that it is unlikely that the support of israel somehow damages him personally to any significant degree financially or otherwise.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094137]it was never the argument
i never tried convincing you to support my state because my state doesn't really need that support in the first place and simultaneously i merely presented some reasons as to why it is unlikely that supporting israel somehow damages the finances of your country, but alright.[/QUOTE]
It's bogus to claim that spending the billions that we give you annually elsewhere wouldn't be helpful to the US. It might not be a large help but I guarantee it's worth cutting. Your state stealing my money is only part of the problem, but it is a problem.
Melnek you're getting defensive over the wrong things,relax man
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094151]it makes no difference to my argument either because i wasn't arguing anything, i was trying to explain why american support of israel means absolutely nothing to the largest economic state in the world, and that it is unlikely that the support of israel somehow damages him personally to any significant degree financially or otherwise.[/QUOTE]the argument he is making is not about damaging, the money could be used elsewhere. it literally means more than 'absolutely nothing' when its in the billions, billions that could be spent at home rather than on your state that you yourself admit doesnt need it. when he is taking issue with the funding of israel it also obviously implicates his state and representatives of his state too. you are using the obvious unstated premises of his argument to set up strawmen that are not relevant to the point he is making: that your state doesnt need the money and that he would prefer that money to be spent on those in need cus theres a few poor communties who would very much enjoy those billions.
'i wasnt arguing anything' clearly
[QUOTE=Aztec;50094154]It's bogus to claim that spending the billions that we give you annually elsewhere wouldn't be helpful to the US. It might not be a large help but I guarantee it's worth cutting. Your state stealing my money is only part of the problem, but it is a problem.[/QUOTE]
oh right i was going to address this also
we're not "stealing" anything. it is entirely your country's decision to lend us foreign aid. whatever conspiracy theories you believe about israel strong arming, again, THE WORLDS STRONGEST NATION is just laughable.
all your troubles seem to be self-inflicted tbh. it just irks me that you blame israel for it but it's probably out of frustration or similar as to how politicians blame immigrants for everything, guess it's the same type of rationalization.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094192]oh right i was going to address this also
we're not "stealing" anything. it is entirely your country's decision to lend us foreign aid. whatever conspiracy theories you believe about israel strong arming, again, THE WORLDS STRONGEST NATION is just laughable.
all your troubles seem to be self-brought tbh. it just irks me that you blame israel for it but it's probably out of frustration or similar as to how politicians blame immigrants for everything, guess it's the same type of rationalization.[/QUOTE]
I really don't care what words you use. I don't support my country's foriegn policy and therefore it is theft because it is blatantly a waste of money on states that do not matter at all realistically to US national security. Like your state.
You can continue acting weird and shouting about conspiracies, but I'm not going to humor it.
[quote]. it just irks me that you blame israel for it but it's probably out of frustration or similar as to how politicians blame immigrants for everything, guess it's the same type of rationalization.[/QUOTE]
hahahhahahaha
[QUOTE=benzi2k7;50094189]the argument he is making is not about damaging, the money could be used elsewhere. it literally means more than 'absolutely nothing' when its in the billions, billions that could be spent at home rather than on your state that you yourself admit doesnt need it. when he is taking issue with the funding of israel it also obviously implicates his state and representatives of his state too. you are using the obvious unstated premises of his argument to set up strawmen that are not relevant to the point he is making: that your state doesnt need the money and that he would prefer that money to be spent on those in need cus theres a few poor communties who would very much enjoy those billions.
'i wasnt arguing anything' clearly[/QUOTE]
if the points i am making are not relevant to the point he is making maybe that means that im not fucking arguing against him, but rather trying to explain why his anger is probably misdirected
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094211]if the points i am making are not relevant to the point he is making maybe that means that im not fucking arguing against him, but rather trying to explain why his anger is probably misdirected[/QUOTE]
My argument is simple. Take the billions we are spending on Israel and spend it at home. I was looking for some possible reason why it makes sense to give you any aid at all besides just "deal with it your government is the one making the bad decision not me" and you haven't provided me with much of an answer.
I obviously am being critical of my own government so I don't know why you keep pointing this out.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50094198]I really don't care what words you use. I don't support my country's foriegn policy and therefore it is theft because it is blatantly a waste of money on states that do not matter at all realistically to US national security. Like your state.
You can continue acting weird and shouting about conspiracies, but I'm not going to humor it.
hahahhahahaha[/QUOTE]
theft by definition is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
your country using taxes to support a nation they so chose is not theft you dingus. you not supporting your country's foreign policy also doesn't make it theft, sorry.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094221]theft by definition is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
your country using taxes to support a nation they so chose is not theft you dingus. you not supporting your country's foreign policy also doesn't make it theft, sorry.[/QUOTE]
You can frame it however you want to, if that's what you want to do. Just like you tried to frame my frustration as on the same level as migrant xenophobia.
The only thing I've been stating this entire time is that we shouldn't be giving you aid, especially not billions, and you've mostly told me that it's true that you don't need aid.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;50093798]I don't care if it's a penny or a dollar, it's my money and I want it redirected to my own country, not yours.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I agree with you on the merit that we need to stop wasting so much money on Israel, and even giving them this much blind support but
When they take your taxes, that's the government's to do as it sees fit. If it sees giving it to Israel as fit, then that's how it is. If the rest of the U.S. didn't want that, then they can vote in more people who aren't so pro-Israel, over time.
I wish I could say "if it got bad enough, civilians could gather a rally and protest," but it is bad enough, imo, and the U.S. and its culture just isn't fit for such a rally.
[QUOTE=Aztec;50094217]My argument is simple. Take the billions we are spending on Israel and spend it at home. I was looking for some possible reason why it makes sense to give you any aid at all besides just "deal with it your government is the one making the bad decision not me" and you haven't provided me with much of an answer.
I obviously am being critical of my own government so I don't know why you keep pointing this out.[/QUOTE]
i gave you reasons, both military and civilian uses of our cooperation together and the fruits that this partnership brings, you just dismissed both of these points thinking they contradict eachother (???)
i also mentioned power projection, best ally in the region, etc. you dismissed this also because you don't believe your state should indulge in the ME. what more could i say other than, well, deal with it?
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094238]i gave you reasons, both military and civilian uses of our cooperation together and the fruits that this partnership brings, you just dismissed both of these points thinking they contradict eachother (???)
i also mentioned power projection, best ally in the region, etc. you dismissed this also because you don't believe your state should indulge in the ME. what more could i say other than, well, deal with it?[/QUOTE]
It's been mentioned before, but any technological advancements from Israel could also be accomplished in the US. It's not like we don't have massive technology hubs here.
As for the bogus claim that there are somehow jobs for people to benefit from, as it was pointed out earlier, those are all specialized jobs that exist only for a minority of the population. Not the blue collar unskilled jobs that US citizens actually need.
[QUOTE=Melnek;50094211]if the points i am making are not relevant to the point he is making maybe that means that im not fucking arguing against him, but rather trying to explain why his anger is probably misdirected[/QUOTE]his anger is at the money being given to a state that doesnt need it, blame is on both politicians within israel and the US. 'trying to explain' is the act of an argument!! you started with arguments on what america gets out of the relationship with your state, he clearly does not care for the highly specific benefits in that the issue in place is that the money could be spent at home, on things that need it. what is he misdirecting it to? that your state does indeed take money in deals from politicians who could be using their power to make te case for things at home rather than about how close they are with israel.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;50093409]Bernie Sanders did incorrectly say 10,000 civilians were killed.
United Nations:
That figure- 7 in 10, is more damning than whatever the death toll Israel yields in Gaza. Whether it was 1,000 or 10,000 people dead overall, it is the fact that 7 in 10 civilians were indiscriminately targeted by IDF is what makes it so damning. Not some arbitrary "8,000 number" that Bernie used.[/QUOTE]
Would it make it somehow okay if the death tolls and civillian to soldier ratios were equal?
I never understood that logic. Of course the civillian death rates are immense when soldiers fire from hospitals (yes that did happen).
Israeli never use any kind of weapon that's not precisely targetted, as opposed to Hamas blind firing missiles, IED and random knife attacks.
I would like to know how exactly Israel soldiers specifically target civillians. Please explain your point
What I don't understand is the assumption that so many make that if we were to pull a substantial amount of aid to Israel it is equivalent to us wanting to cut ties with them. We can still be strong allies without us pouring billions of dollars into Israel. They aren't in any way mutually exclusive.
I like how melnek pointed outt that Israel doesnt need the money then spent the rest of the thread arguing that israel should keep getting money.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;50094536]I like how melnek pointed outt that Israel doesnt need the money then spent the rest of the thread arguing that israel should keep getting money.[/QUOTE]
I can get where he's coming from but he's all over the place lol
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