Norway killer Breivik returns to court accusing Norwegian government of breaching the Human Rights. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=maeZtro;49935943]It's not about if he deserves it or not, he clearly doesn't. We have come together and decided that we are going to try to rehabilitate all people and don't use death penalties. We can't pick and choose and say that Brievik is an exception because that would go against everything the justice system currently stands for. Everyone should be treated the same in the eyes of the law so if we kill Brievik we should also kill all other murderers because they don't deserve being rehabilitated either.[/QUOTE] Thing is, he isn't like other murderers though. He committed the deadliest attack against Norway since WWII.

[QUOTE=Zero!;49935935]He lost his right being treated like a human being the day he did the shooting. I'm all for being above him, but he is getting a way better treatment then he deserves.[/QUOTE] Yeah he's getting better than he deserves because he has a game console and half decent furniture. Clearly the epitome of luxury.

[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;49935952]Thing is, he isn't like other murderers though. He committed the deadliest attack against Norway since WWII.[/QUOTE] So what? a murderer is still a murderer. I agree that he is much worse than everyone else but once you have crossed the line of taking someone else's life in cold blood you don't deserve being rehabilitated anyway. If you are arguing that we should rehabilitate regardless of if people deserve it or not and that he can't be rehabilitated because he's too fucked in the head that's another thing entirely, but unless you are a criminal psychologist I don't thing you are able to make that call. I don't think the severity of the crime past a certain point (like murder in cold blood) necessarily corresponds to how likely you are of being rehabilitated.

[QUOTE=Zero!;49935935]He lost his right being treated like a human being the day he did the shooting. I'm all for being above him, but he is getting a way better treatment then he deserves.[/QUOTE] That isn't how rights work. He committed a horrible crime and is being punished to the extent of the law, going beyond that and treating him as though he is not Human is not justice, it is revenge.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;49935945]There is something ironic about the anti-EU guy invoking the European Conventions on human rights while simultaneously donning the Nazi Germany salute.[/QUOTE] So, taken from a speech given by Adolf Hitler in 1933, sometime re-attributed to Gobbles, [quote] We will use the weapons of democracy to destroy democracy. [/quote] The unfortunate fact is that, even though he has a standard of living that most NEETs would aspire to, his case has merit on the formal letter of the law. That the letter of the law be observed is what divides a bureaucratic democracy from a wanton dictatorship of the masses. His legal counsel has every reason to, on his behalf, bring forth the argument that holding him in solitary isolation like this, even if it is relatively splendid isolation, is inhumane treatment. He has every right to back that claim up, while himself advocating for and believing in world where no such treatment would ever happen. It is abject tyranny if we tear up the letter of the law, just to satisfy ourselves and the way we feel. No matter what you might think [I]of[/I] the prisoner in question, to deny him his rights as you have enumerated them for every other prisoner is wrong. Even if his crimes are particularly heinous. No to side track this conversation, but this is one reason why I believe in the administration of the death penalty. There are such crimes and such actions that I think it is only right that we as people look upon the person who committed those crimes and say, "you are worthy only of death."

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49935827]I still don't want him to get the death penalty but, y'know, I sure do hope he chokes to death on something.[/QUOTE] How is that any different?

Fine, if he views solitary confinement as torture then try integrating him into the prison population and see how that goes because I guarantee he'll still claim mistreatment and complain again. Anyway, it's probably for the best if we forget about Breivik - the less attention and media coverage he gets, the better.

[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;49935927]He is beyond help. Its very clear that he is. But honestly, this guy is only in for [B]21[/B]years. Minimum is 10. They should at least try something. But hes going to be free by 2033, for a guy who killed 77 people.[/QUOTE] The maximum sentence may be 21 years but at the end they will deem whether or not he is ready and safe to be released into the free world. If they find he is not rehabilitated then they can give him another sentence, possibly another 21 years, at the end of which they will judge if he is ready or not, if not they can jail him again. Its a good system which stops arbitrary jail sentences of 100 years, its designed for rehabilitation - not punishment.

[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;49935927]He is beyond help. Its very clear that he is. But honestly, this guy is only in for [B]21[/B]years. Minimum is 10. They should at least try something. But hes going to be free by 2033, for a guy who killed 77 people.[/QUOTE] His sentence can be, and will very likely be, indefinitely renewed.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49936021]How is that any different?[/QUOTE] I have no personal problem with the deaths of the worst humanity has to offer, but at the same time I don't believe in state sponsored executions. I draw the line at government intentionally causing a harmless person's death.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49936021]How is that any different?[/QUOTE] It's the "I won't kill him, but I won't be sad if he died". It's a perfectly normal reaction when faced with someone this awful. For the record, I won't shed a tear at his passing either.

[QUOTE=GordonZombie;49936022]Anyway, it's probably for the best if we forget about Breivik - the less attention and media coverage he gets, the better.[/QUOTE] Not writing about him would be like to sweep a problem under the rug. He is alive and in prison, people decided to let him be. Sooner or later there will be another one like him, and people need to know did they make the right decision, so they know how to handle the next one. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49936025]The maximum sentence may be 21 years but at the end they will deem whether or not he is ready and safe to be released into the free world. If they find he is not rehabilitated then they can give him another sentence, possibly another 21 years, at the end of which they will judge if he is ready or not, if not they can jail him again. Its a good system which stops arbitrary jail sentences of 100 years, its designed for rehabilitation - not punishment.[/QUOTE] If the system fails to rehabilitate a person in 20 years or 40 years, and then the person dies of old age in prison, I wouldn't call it a good system, but; a) complete waste of resources. or b) complete incompetence of people/doctors involved. or c) pretending that the system is civilized to feel better, but it is a death penalty in disguise (involves a) )

Put him in an American prison. See how he feels.

[QUOTE=BenJammin';49936100]Put him in an American prison. See how he feels.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure that says more about the American prison system than about Breivik.

[QUOTE=AntonioR;49936085]Not writing about him would be like to sweep a problem under the rug. He is alive and in prison, people decided to let him be. Sooner or later there will be another one like him, and people need to know did they make the right decision, so they know how to handle the next one. If the system fails to rehabilitate a person in 20 years or 40 years, and then the person dies of old age in prison, I wouldn't call it a good system, but; a) complete waste of resources. or b) complete incompetence of people/doctors involved. or c) pretending that the system is civilized to feel better, but it is a death penalty in disguise (involves a) )[/QUOTE] I was saying before about how if someone is beyond hope of rehabilititation what to do with than, and how do you know when someone is rehabilitiated. I'm not for the death penalty but I think scenarios like this are the biggest tests of my belief. I'm on the edge most of me is against the death penalty but this really provides a challenge. In anycase its a better system than most others which focus on punishment and its infinitely better than the for profit prison systems (with punishment and maximum sentences of 1000s of years with a lifetime of hard labour for minimum pay with no choice in the matter, the prison has a financial incentive to make sure you are never rehabilitated) in the USA. Not sure you can name a better system with regard for rehabilitating citizens and preparing them for the real world. With regard to reoffending rates please only use reoffending rate stats from Norway - you'll find they have the lowest reoffending rate in europe. If someone is never going to be rehabilitated though... I agree its a waste of money I guess you just have to be ambivalent. Accept that the system can never fit everyone but for the majority of people it is the best system. Like welfare, some abuse it but you shouldn't remove it for that abusive minority, then you screw over all the people who benefit from it.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;49936107]I'm pretty sure that says more about the American prison system than about Breivik.[/QUOTE] It's not great, but at least we know the worst criminals aren't feeling too cozy with videogame consoles and other home comforts. Norway is being far too soft. He knew that if he was caught his punishment wouldn't be as bad if he was in another country. He's only suing to get MORE comforts, because he's a fucking piece of shit. He deserves nothing more than a fucking hole in the ground to shit in and slops for food. You aren't proving anything about yourselves for letting this guy live a cozier life than some of the nicest gentle people living in poor countries. The only thing you are proving is that you would give the same treatment to a criminal if he brought a flamethrower to a Norwegian elementary school.

[QUOTE=AntonioR;49936085]Not writing about him would be like to sweep a problem under the rug. He is alive and in prison, people decided to let him be. Sooner or later there will be another one like him, and people need to know did they make the right decision, so they know how to handle the next one. If the system fails to rehabilitate a person in 20 years or 40 years, and then the person dies of old age in prison, I wouldn't call it a good system, but; a) complete waste of resources. or b) complete incompetence of people/doctors involved. or c) pretending that the system is civilized to feel better, but it is a death penalty in disguise (involves a) )[/QUOTE] Or D.) the person is not able to be rehabilitated. You cannot put sole blame on 'the system' as maybe the person just cannot / does not want to be rehabilitated.

[QUOTE=BenJammin';49936100]Put him in an American prison. See how he feels.[/QUOTE] He's just going to get togheter with the local Nazis.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49935982]That isn't how rights work. He committed a horrible crime and is being punished to the extent of the law, going beyond that and treating him as though he is not Human is not justice, it is revenge.[/QUOTE] revenge is an incredibly important part of justice but, that doesn't excuse poor treatment of a person if his claims are true, then they must be rectified

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936155][B]revenge is an incredibly important part of justice[/B] but, that doesn't excuse poor treatment of a person if his claims are true, then they must be rectified[/QUOTE] I could not possibly disagree with this statement more.

[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;49936142]Or D.) the person is not able to be rehabilitated. You cannot put sole blame on 'the system' as maybe the person just cannot / does not want to be rehabilitated.[/QUOTE] do you understand what happened in the early life of Breivik you understand that he was abused as child, brought up in a broken family, psychologically evaluated at a young age as brought up in a fucking terrible environment breivik is definitely the product of his environment

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936155]revenge is an incredibly important part of justice[/QUOTE] Ha, no.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49936163]I could not possibly disagree with this statement more.[/QUOTE] disagree with it all you want, but you will be representing an opinion that isn't reflected in modern legal systems, nor thoughts on justice [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;49936174]Ha, no.[/QUOTE] ha, yes.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936171]do you understand what happened in the early life of Breivik you understand that he was abused as child, brought up in a broken family, psychologically evaluated at a young age as brought up in a fucking terrible environment breivik is definitely the product of his environment[/QUOTE] That's no excuse.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936177]disagree with it all you want, but you will be representing an opinion that isn't reflected in modern legal systems, nor thoughts on justice [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] ha, yes.[/QUOTE] Modern legal systems are based on systems which have been around for 1000s of years. If you want a modern legal system look to norway and rehabilitation. Torture and punishment don't work, solitary confinement is down right medieval - probably much older. American prisons go by the standard of the worse/more humiliating/longer the sentence the less likely they are to re-offend. Norway proves that wrong 100%

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936171]do you understand what happened in the early life of Breivik you understand that he was abused as child, brought up in a broken family, psychologically evaluated at a young age as brought up in a fucking terrible environment breivik is definitely the product of his environment[/QUOTE] But that isn't the justice's systems fault if he cannot be rehabilitated, is it? That also doesn't excuse his actions in anyway, plenty of people are brought up in the same, or worse conditions, yet they don't bomb a city and massacre a youth camp.

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;49936063]I have no personal problem with the deaths of the worst humanity has to offer, but at the same time I don't believe in state sponsored executions. I draw the line at government intentionally causing a harmless person's death.[/QUOTE] Isn't that noble of you.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49936195]Modern legal systems are based on systems which have been around for 1000s of years. If you want a modern legal system look to norway and rehabilitation. Torture and punishment don't work, solitary confinement is down right medieval - probably much older. American prisons go by the standard of the worse/more humiliating/longer the sentence the less likely they are to re-offend. Norway proves that wrong 100%[/QUOTE] if you think norway practices a 100% rehabilitative system, you are wrong this very thread is evidence that it doesn't, because breivik is being punished via isolation and confinement [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] clarification: i am not arguing to bring back the fucking rack, i am saying that revenge/punishment is a key-aspect of justice that every justice system in the world, even the most liberal legal systems, make use of

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936207]if you think norway practices a 100% rehabilitative system, you are wrong this very thread is evidence that it doesn't, because breivik is being punished via isolation and confinement [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] clarification: i am not arguing to bring back the fucking rack, i am saying that revenge/punishment is a key-aspect of justice that every justice system in the world, even the most liberal legal systems, make use of[/QUOTE] Are you kidding me? There are so many people who get a slap on the wrist from justice systems around the world after committing appalling crimes. How does that fit into your revenge/punishment theory?

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936207]if you think norway practices a 100% rehabilitative system, you are wrong this very thread is evidence that it doesn't, because breivik is being punished via isolation and confinement[/QUOTE] And it is surprising enough that even the accusation is enough to get worldwide media attention. Punitive, revenge-based prison systems do not work. They are pointless.