Norway killer Breivik returns to court accusing Norwegian government of breaching the Human Rights. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49936219]Are you kidding me? There are so many people who get a slap on the wrist from justice systems around the world after committing appalling crimes. How does that fit into your revenge/punishment theory?[/QUOTE] lol you literally use the term slap on the wrist, a perfect example of a punishment for a wrongdoing, and then you ask how that fits into a theory of justice concerning retribution [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49936222]And it is surprising enough that even the accusation is enough to get worldwide media attention. Punitive, revenge-based prison systems do not work. They are pointless.[/QUOTE] correct but you will not find a system that doesn't use punishment or retribution for wrongdoings once again, i am not suggesting a revenge-based system, i am in favour of rehabilitation, but justice without retribution is ridiculous

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936224]lol you literally use the term slap on the wrist, a perfect example of a punishment for a wrongdoing, and then you ask how that fits into a theory of justice concerning retribution[/QUOTE] It is punishment, but it's a joke punishment and doesn't really fit in with the whole revenge part.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936224]lol you literally use the term slap on the wrist, a perfect example of a punishment for a wrongdoing, and then you ask how that fits into a theory of justice concerning retribution [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] correct but you will not find a system that doesn't use punishment or retribution for wrongdoings once again, i am not suggesting a revenge-based system, i am in favour of rehabilitation, but justice without retribution is ridiculous[/QUOTE] Justice isn't about retribution. If it was, we'd still be letting excessive personal feelings get in the way of the justice system and we'd also be a lot more like Iran where we cut off peoples hands for stealing.

[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49936243]It is punishment, but it's a joke punishment and doesn't really fit in with the whole revenge part.[/QUOTE] a punishment is revenge for a wrongdoing. punishment ˈpʌnɪʃm(ə)nt/Submit noun the infliction or imposition of a penalty as [B]retribution[/B] for an offence. "crime demands just punishment" synonyms: penalizing, punishing, disciplining; More a penalty inflicted as retribution for an offence. plural noun: punishments "she assisted her husband to escape punishment for the crime" synonyms: penalty, discipline, correction, retribution, penance, sentence, reward, one's just deserts, medicine, the price, the rap, requital, vengeance, justice, judgement, sanction; More revenge rɪˈvɛn(d)ʒ/Submit noun 1. the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands. "other spurned wives have taken public revenge on their husbands" synonyms: [B]vengeance, retribution[/B] [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Coffee;49936248]Justice isn't about retribution. If it was, we'd still be letting excessive personal feelings get in the way of the justice system and we'd also be a lot more like Iran where we cut off peoples hands for stealing.[/QUOTE] no instead we fine people money, deprive them of liberty, deprive them of property, publicly shame them, deprive them of employment possibilities, and in some instances deprive them of voting rights [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] i'm not saying that justice systems are or should be focused on retribution, i'm saying that it's impossible to define justice, or have a functional justice system without revenge/retribution to make lofty statements such as 'justice isn't about retribution!' just isn't right, it's wrong in terms of justice systems, it's wrong in terms of the [I]definitions of words as we understand justice to be at the moment[/I]

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936255]*What even is this shit* no instead we fine people money, deprive them of liberty, deprive them of property, publicly shame them, deprive them of employment possibilities, and in some instances deprive them of voting rights[/QUOTE] So you'd rather we cut off hands than deal out a deserving punishment for our society (not 3rd world countries / ones run with very old school views)? Those are all punishments fit for the type of environment we live in.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936255]no instead we fine people money, deprive them of liberty, deprive them of property, publicly shame them, deprive them of employment possibilities, and in some instances deprive them of voting rights[/QUOTE] We lock people up for the safety of the public. People like to romanticise it as some revenge thing, but that's essentially what it is. This is why people are fined, to discourage further endangering activity.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49936222]And it is surprising enough that even the accusation is enough to get worldwide media attention. Punitive, revenge-based prison systems do not work. They are pointless.[/QUOTE] Soft rehabilitation centers don't work against sick, violent people who would do it again and even bigger if they were given the chance. You are only showing weakness to people who dwell off it. They use weakness to their advantage at any moment possible, which is what you are seeing here. He thinks Norway is weak enough to succumb to his demands for more rights, more comforts. Prisons aren't ever pretty, and it's shame that people get punished severely who don't necessarily deserve to be punished. Some do meed rehabilitation and comfort, especially if it's a limited sentence. My problem is the lack of distinction from both ends, I know the world isn't black and white at all and justice and punishment are immensely complex issues, but you can obviously see this man is a fucking monster. He gives no fucks, he wants no empathy from anyone, he only wants to see how much he can get away with before he dies.

[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;49936276]So you'd rather we cut off hands than deal out a deserving punishment for our society (not 3rd world countries / ones run with very old school views)? Those are all punishments fit for the type of environment we live in.[/QUOTE] are you fucking kidding me alright yeah guys you got me LOP BREIVIK'S HANDS OFF

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936255] to make lofty statements such as 'justice isn't about retribution!' just isn't right, it's wrong in terms of justice systems, it's wrong in terms of the [I]definitions of words[/I][/QUOTE] Stop being so pedantic, yes in [I]terms of the definition of words[/I] it is wrong, but everyone understands what i means.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;49936195]Modern legal systems are based on systems which have been around for 1000s of years. If you want a modern legal system look to norway and rehabilitation. Torture and punishment don't work, solitary confinement is down right medieval - probably much older. American prisons go by the standard of the worse/more humiliating/longer the sentence the less likely they are to re-offend. Norway proves that wrong 100%[/QUOTE] Norway still punishes its citizens for breaking its laws, what are you talking about? That's the entire point of society. Also while better prison conditions may have the effect of reducing the chance of re-offending, which is good, there are still surprisingly a lot of crimes done in Norway like thefts, more-so than in some major U.S. cities even iirc. And Norway is a relatively small country, like mine. Not to mention that better prison conditions, and shorter sentences, may also attract criminals to do crime in that country.

[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49936280]We lock people up for the safety of the public. People like to romanticise it as some revenge thing, but that's essentially what it is. This is why people are fined, to discourage further endangering activity.[/QUOTE] bullshit why do we fine people why do people get warnings why do we punish certain offences more harshly that are less dangerous to the general public but more morally disgusting (sex offenders vs murderers) why do we punish personal issues such as recreational drug usage why do we have minimum security prisons if we locked people up purely 'for the safety of the public', half of the crimes wouldn't be punished and the other half would be guaranteed incarceration once again, not saying that incapacitation is not a part of justice, but it isn't the only part - very evidently.

[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;49936142]Or D.) the person is not able to be rehabilitated. You cannot put sole blame on 'the system' as maybe the person just cannot / does not want to be rehabilitated.[/QUOTE] But I can put the blame on the system, because it isn't designed with that option in mind. Why ? Because of b) and c). Even here the pro-rehabilitation people talk about him choking in prison, extending his sentence until he dies, driving him mad by locking him in cell... what they are talking about IS the death sentence, they just don't want to admit it. So, you end with the system made by b) that ends up being c) and doing a).

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936255]a punishment is revenge for a wrongdoing. punishment ˈpʌnɪʃm(ə)nt/Submit noun the infliction or imposition of a penalty as [B]retribution[/B] for an offence. "crime demands just punishment" synonyms: penalizing, punishing, disciplining; More a penalty inflicted as retribution for an offence. plural noun: punishments "she assisted her husband to escape punishment for the crime" synonyms: penalty, discipline, correction, retribution, penance, sentence, reward, one's just deserts, medicine, the price, the rap, requital, vengeance, justice, judgement, sanction; More revenge rɪˈvɛn(d)ʒ/Submit noun 1. the action of hurting or harming someone in return for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands. "other spurned wives have taken public revenge on their husbands" synonyms: [B]vengeance, retribution[/B] [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] no instead we fine people money, deprive them of liberty, deprive them of property, publicly shame them, deprive them of employment possibilities, and in some instances deprive them of voting rights [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] i'm not saying that justice systems are or should be focused on retribution, i'm saying that it's impossible to define justice, or have a functional justice system without revenge/retribution to make lofty statements such as 'justice isn't about retribution!' just isn't right, it's wrong in terms of justice systems, it's wrong in terms of the [I]definitions of words as we understand justice to be at the moment[/I][/QUOTE] It's not revenge in any simple sense. If a murder victim's family thinks that the only possible true justice for the murderer is death, then the justice system doesn't reflect that in any way. It's retribution in the sense that "You did a bad thing to our society, so we will remove you from it" It has nothing to do with emotional response.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49936320]It's not revenge in any simple sense. If a murder victim's family thinks that the only possible true justice for the murderer is death, then the justice system doesn't reflect that in any way. It's retribution in the sense that "You did a bad thing to our society, so we will remove you from it" It has nothing to do with emotional response.[/QUOTE] there is absolutely nothing to do with emotional response in the definition of revenge

[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;49936280]We lock people up for the safety of the public. People like to romanticise it as some revenge thing, but that's essentially what it is. This is why people are fined, to discourage further endangering activity.[/QUOTE] It isn't just for the public safety to lock people up. It's to punish people for breaking the law, like possessing illegal drugs in Norway, namely weed. Issuing a fine is also a punishment. And Norway punishes its citizens as well.

you've basically shown the argument yourself you don't take revenge for the victims, you're [I]taking revenge for society[/I]

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936294]bullshit why do we fine people why do people get warnings why do we punish certain offences more harshly that are less dangerous to the general public but more morally disgusting (sex offenders vs murderers) why do we punish personal issues such as recreational drug usage why do we have minimum security prisons if we locked people up purely 'for the safety of the public', half of the crimes wouldn't be punished and the other half would be guaranteed incarceration[/QUOTE] Fine people so they don't attempt to endanger other people again, or if they show a disdain towards the rules that the society is based upon. Warn people so the shock of authority HOPEFULLY makes them not do the thing that could potentially endanger society again. Some are punished less because we don't live in a perfect judicial system. There's still a lot of work to be done. We punish certain recreational drug use for various reasons, more harshly if they're destructive, also depending on political climate and scientific illiteracy. We have minimum security prisons because they work better in rehabilitating people to re-enter society than high or max sec prisons. It's not a perfect system, but for the love of God it's not in any way "based on revenge"

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49936331]you've basically shown the argument yourself you don't take revenge for the victims, you're [I]taking revenge for society[/I][/QUOTE] It's not society's fault that some members of the community are assholes. That's a human problem.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49936336]Fine people so they don't attempt to endanger other people again, or if they show a disdain towards the rules that the society is based upon. Warn people so the shock of authority HOPEFULLY makes them not do the thing that could potentially endanger society again. Some are punished less because we don't live in a perfect judicial system. There's still a lot of work to be done. We punish certain recreational drug use for various reasons, more harshly if they're destructive, also depending on political climate and scientific illiteracy. We have minimum security prisons because they work better in rehabilitating people to re-enter society than high or max sec prisons. It's not a perfect system, but for the love of God it's not in any way "based on revenge"[/QUOTE] your first two points are deterrence, not incapacitation - in a pure system of incapacitation, you would remove offenders from society because you believe them to be a threat, what you're suggesting is deterrence through retribution. (Incapacitation IS retribution, it just depends on which side of the fence you stand) your third point is a cop-out, "it's not a perfect system" is not an argument, you're saying that you believe that sentences should be based purely on danger to society, but you're not elaborating further minimum security prisons work better in rehabilitating people, but utterly fail to incapacitate them. this suggests that incapacitation is not the only reason for incarceration your fourth point is also a cop-out, the flat answer is that we don't imprison drug offenders because of a danger to society - that argument can be used with drug suppliers, but not reasonably for drug-takers. We punish them because we believe they're wrong, and their sentence is based on how wrong we feel it is, it isn't a utilitarian estimation of possible harm because then minimum sentences would make no sense no, justice systems are based on our/a localized idea of justice, which in the west (and elsewhere), retribution is an inherent part of.

[QUOTE=BenJammin';49936140]It's not great, but at least we know the worst criminals aren't feeling too cozy with videogame consoles and other home comforts. Norway is being far too soft. He knew that if he was caught his punishment wouldn't be as bad if he was in another country. He's only suing to get MORE comforts, because he's a fucking piece of shit. He deserves nothing more than a fucking hole in the ground to shit in and slops for food. You aren't proving anything about yourselves for letting this guy live a cozier life than some of the nicest gentle people living in poor countries. The only thing you are proving is that you would give the same treatment to a criminal if he brought a flamethrower to a Norwegian elementary school.[/QUOTE] What exactly does having a harsh prison climate accomplish? Is it supposed to lower crime rate or something? Because that strategy seems to be failing spectacularly. All our prison system seems to do is breed more problems by destroying the life of anyone it touches. [img]http://www.apa.org/Images/2014-10-incarceration-chart2_tcm7-176264.jpg[/img]

Would he be happier if he got access to shitpost on /pol/ ?

FYI, this is his room in Prison (not an actual picture of his, but one of the cells on his block). [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/u02KUYF.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=D3vils Buddy;49936504]FYI, this is his room in Prison (not an actual picture of his, but one of the cells on his block). [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/u02KUYF.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] Before any of you complain that this is nicer than your room, remember this: you are free to go out and have a walk in the park any time, or get a coffee, or travel over to the next town to meet a friend. He is not.

Count himself lucky he's not in the US, where most cells look like this or worse. [IMG]http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/prison-5.jpg[/IMG]

Everyone deserves a decent life.

[QUOTE=Crimor;49935837]Also I love how everyone is going "Hey this guy is human garbage, let's be human garbage too!"[/QUOTE] How adorable.

Send him here. Or to Arizona.

Transfer him to Leavenworth for just one week and he'll see just how good he has it. He doesn't deserve a third of of the luxuries he gets, hell he has a more luxurious life than millions of free people in the western world.

Extradite him to ADX Florence. See how he likes the Z Block. Windowless, lightbulb-less rooms with restraints on the bed. I guarantee you he will stop bitching about his apartment in Norway after spending a month in the Black Hole. [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;49936514]Before any of you complain that this is nicer than your room, remember this: you are free to go out and have a walk in the park any time, or get a coffee, or travel over to the next town to meet a friend. [b]He is not.[/b][/QUOTE] Yeah, because he shot a ton of kids. Prison is about rehabilitation up to a point, but with heinous crimes, it ought to be about personal penitence and salvation through pain. Giving him a cushy setup like that is not reinforcing the idea that what he did was wrong.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49936205]Isn't that noble of you.[/QUOTE] is it time for the "I'm so much better than everyone because I regard all human life as absolutely precious" shit