Norway killer Breivik returns to court accusing Norwegian government of breaching the Human Rights. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49938846]Because shit like that doesnt really say "You fucked up dude" its more "Heres your prize!" If that happened in America people would be committing crimes more than they already do just to get into jail. Yes, America has an issue with criminals straight up committing crimes just so they can go to jail and get some free treatment. Especially in winters. Now give them TVs, a nice room(much nicer than anything someone homeless would have) A computer, and a Playstation and games, heated/AC/ free food cooked for you, and able to cook your own if you want, all supplied for you. Nah dude I totally dont see anyone taking advantage of that, nor do I see it costing a fuck load of money from people who will generally never use it while those with no money get access to it all. I want this fucking guys TV/PS2/Computer gone and his shitter in his room, apparently thats inhumane or some travesty. People here are pretty deluded sometimes in surprising ways.[/QUOTE] Why do you want to make things worse for prisoners instead of making things better for everyone? I also think everyone should have a nice bedroom and bathroom and whatever entertainment media they would like. You complain about the homelessness problem. So isn't the solution to that to provide a nice place to stay for the homeless and other who need it? That actually solves a problem. What problem does taking Brevik's Playstation away solve? [quote]So he should be treated the same as a guy who stole some stuff, the same as a child murderer/raper, and himself, a spree killer? They all deserve the same care, from the same places, doesnt matter how drastically different they are in personality or how they act out? Lets make them roommates dude, if some prisoners can have roommates, then why arent the child killers, rapists, and the guy who forgot to pay his taxes arent in the same room?[/quote] Once again I'm going to ask: what would this accomplish? You and I and everyone else knows that putting dangerous people together would be dangerous for the inmates. Is that what you want? Are you one of the people who thinks that people should be raped or assaulted in prison?

[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49938896]Why do you want to make things worse for prisoners instead of making things better for everyone? I also think everyone should have a nice bedroom and bathroom and whatever entertainment media they would like. You complain about the homelessness problem. So isn't the solution to that to provide a nice place to stay for the homeless and other who need it? That actually solves a problem. What problem does taking Brevik's Playstation away solve? Once again I'm going to ask: what would this accomplish? You and I and everyone else knows that putting dangerous people together would be dangerous for the inmates. Is that what you want? Are you one of the people who thinks that people should be raped or assaulted in prison?[/QUOTE] You are asking me to answer a question I wasnt even asking. Get reading comprehension and realize I am against exactly what you said because thats the type of shit would happen IF we made all prisoners equal, I was making fun of that because its stupid. You have a naive mindset of "If we do good thing, person become good because we good!" more like "Bad person takes advantage of Good" which is pretty common. If you think everyone should have all that nice stuff then go start saving the world dude by providing people with it. Apparently Da Bomb76 cracked the code of how to finally fix the worlds prison system. Give them nice rooms and luxuries. Seriously, start writing to those who run our prison system, maybe you can get a noble prize with that kind of thinking because this situation is so simple. How about realizing this shit ALL costs money and SOMEONES paying for it(you fyi in America for our Prisons) My tax money would go to criminals playstations and not homeless homes, that would be my issue. Id be more than happy to have more of my tax money go to homeless and veterans than to my state for their prisons. Spending money on a Brevik, you know a 70+ spree killing murderer, lets say on a PS/TV/Computer/Etc... is spent money, it could have gone to someone far more deserving and someone whos maybe a better human being? Or are you one of those people that really thinks we are all the same on the inside and you can fix everyone with niceness?

We're not all the same. That's the problem. People who commit crimes do so for various reason. Sometimes, those reasons can be address and we can be reasonably confident that the person won't do it again. There are various ways to get to that point. Punishment and deterrence are both obviously viable options that only a fool would ignore or dispute. It's not about being nice to people, it's about increasing help and reducing harm. So if we get a mass killer like Brevik and we don't think he's ready or will ever be ready to be released, then he needs to stay in a prison, obviously. But he's still a human and a member of society, and if our goal is to make society better then he should be provided with the best degree of comfort we can offer. Bringing up other problems such as homelessness is a non sequitur that changes nothing. There are innumerable problems and we only have so many resources to spend. That's why nobody is proposing Brevik should get daily massages and a personal butler. This isn't Nobel Prize territory because we already know the answer. This method of justice works far better, as I've shown multiple times now. [editline]15th March 2016[/editline] If we did a brain scan on Brevik and found he had a tumor on the exact spot of the brain which caused him to lose compassion and empathy for other humans, we would remove it and maybe he would get better. That would be solving a problem. But if we could never remove the tumor, we should still provide him with a modicum of support.

[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49939092]We're not all the same. That's the problem. People who commit crimes do so for various reason. Sometimes, those reasons can be address and we can be reasonably confident that the person won't do it again. There are various ways to get to that point. Punishment and deterrence are both obviously viable options that only a fool would ignore or dispute. It's not about being nice to people, it's about increasing help and reducing harm. So if we get a mass killer like Brevik and we don't think he's ready or will ever be ready to be released, then he needs to stay in a prison, obviously. But he's still a human and a member of society, and if our goal is to make society better then he should be provided with the best degree of comfort we can offer. Bringing up other problems such as homelessness is a non sequitur that changes nothing. There are innumerable problems and we only have so many resources to spend. That's why nobody is proposing Brevik should get daily massages and a personal butler. This isn't Nobel Prize territory because we already know the answer. This method of justice works far better, as I've shown multiple times now.[/QUOTE] You have only shown it working so well in smaller countries with completely different cultures than the USA. I would eat my words if I get statistics on how that works in big countries, like USA as it iis right now. We made society better by removing him from it, he clearly didnt want a part of it. You cant be like "IT WORKS!" when its working in a few select countries and somehow apply it to everywhere. Lets say one of the living victims is now homeless. Their attempted killer has a better living condition than them and its paid for.

[QUOTE=verynicelady;49937037]All people should be treated humanely. This man is probably insane, and he certainly did terrible things - but unless he is to be killed (which most civilised countries see as the ultimate breach of human rights) he should be kept in reasonable conditions.[/QUOTE] He was proven to be sane though.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49938846]Because shit like that doesnt really say "You fucked up dude" its more "Heres your prize!" [I]If that happened in America[/I] people would be committing crimes more than they already do just to get into jail. Yes, America has an issue with criminals straight up committing crimes just so they can go to jail and get some free treatment. Especially in winters. Now give them TVs, a nice room(much nicer than anything someone homeless would have) A computer, and a Playstation and games, heated/AC/ free food cooked for you, and able to cook your own if you want, all supplied for you. Nah dude I totally dont see anyone taking advantage of that, nor do I see it costing a fuck load of money from people who will generally never use it while those with no money get access to it all. I want this fucking guys TV/PS2/Computer gone and his shitter in his room, apparently thats inhumane or some travesty. People here are pretty deluded sometimes in surprising ways. So he should be treated the same as a guy who stole some stuff, the same as a child murderer/raper, and himses it a spree killer? They all deserve the same care, from the same places, doesnt matter how drastically different they are in personality or how they act out? Lets make them roommates dude, if some prisoners can have roommates, then why arent the child killers, rapists, and the guy who forgot to pay his taxes arent in the same room?[/QUOTE] Well this isn't the US, so what's the point? People have a higher standard of living in Norway, so I guess the prisoners expect a higher standard as well. And to the second part, yeah, why not. Prisoners should be room mates with people they get along with preferably, if that's a child killer and the other inmate doesn't mind, I guess they could be room mates. The difference should be that one is in prison for life, and the other is getting out in six months. Are you going to remodel the cell each time someone else moves in?

[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49936373]What exactly does having a harsh prison climate accomplish? Is it supposed to lower crime rate or something? Because that strategy seems to be failing spectacularly. All our prison system seems to do is breed more problems by destroying the life of anyone it touches. [img]http://www.apa.org/Images/2014-10-incarceration-chart2_tcm7-176264.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] 707? That is almost 1% of all Americans. Holy shit your justice system is crap.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;49939596]Well this isn't the US, so what's the point? People have a higher standard of living in Norway, so I guess the prisoners expect a higher standard as well. And to the second part, yeah, why not. Prisoners should be room mates with people they get along with preferably, if that's a child killer and the other inmate doesn't mind, I guess they could be room mates. The difference should be that one is in prison for life, and the other is getting out in six months. Are you going to remodel the cell each time someone else moves in?[/QUOTE] No, thats why prisons have cell blocks depending on the severity of the criminal, so you dont remodel. Of course its not the USA, god damn its like I say that 20 times and people still cant handle reading that. No kidding its not the USA lol, thanks for realizing why Norway works where it does, but cant other places.

It's already been said, but just being a bit more specific. He got 21 years with a minimum of 10, but it's what's called "forvaring". It basically means he'll get re-evaluated when the time comes, and the sentence can be extended by 5 years over and over. The 21 year max is deceptive, as someone who shows no signs of rehabilitation (showing up in court doing a nazi salute sure doesn't help his case) certainly can end up spending the rest of their life locked up. I honestly do not think Breivik will ever get out, and if he somehow does it will be quite the shitstorm for sure. I do not think he has the slightest chance of ever being considered rehabilitated. Forvaring in particular for people deemed likely to re-offend if released, and to protect society from them. Still doesn't change that Norway is very much on the rehabilitation > punishment side of things. Just with the added focus on containing the offender and with the possibility of theoretically indefinite extension. Personally I just feel he is mocking the system and trying to get attention though. Complaining about having an outdated gaming console a while back, showing up doing a nazi salute and yet again getting himself in the spotlight with his case streamed directly and everything. But I guess if both you and your lawyer are quite aware your chances of ever getting out are basically nonexistant you'd try to make your conditions as good as possible, so that part is understandable.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49938346]Imagine how the victims must feel when Brevik was crying for his PS3 and got national attention.[/QUOTE] Literally everything Breivik says gets national attention because it's a cheap way of making a headline. He's a big celebrity, y'know.

[QUOTE=paul simon;49943721]Literally everything Breivik says gets national attention because it's a cheap way of making a headline. He's a big celebrity, y'know.[/QUOTE] For you, that is. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Baneposting shit" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;49944004]For you, that is.[/QUOTE] Was getting caught part of his plan? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Baneposting shit" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=STRIDERS;49944024]Was getting caught part of his plan?[/QUOTE] If we pulled that PS2 away, would he die? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Baneposting shit" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

-snip broken record-

As far as I can tell, Breivik would have a better life in prison than out considering how infamous he is he'd be lynched if he ever went outside, I'm all for rehabilitating but that only works because the chance for a new life exists. There's nothing motivating him to rehabilitate.

[QUOTE=Chamango;49945773]As far as I can tell, Breivik would have a better life in prison than out considering how infamous he is he'd be lynched if he ever went outside, I'm all for rehabilitating but that only works because the chance for a new life exists. There's nothing motivating him to rehabilitate.[/QUOTE] The difference between a life in prison and a life outside prison is the fact that you have more than 10 square feet available to you.

[QUOTE=Chamango;49945773]As far as I can tell, Breivik would have a better life in prison than out considering how infamous he is he'd be lynched if he ever went outside, I'm all for rehabilitating but that only works because the chance for a new life exists. There's nothing motivating him to rehabilitate.[/QUOTE] Time is the greatest weapon. We'll see in 10 more years.

[QUOTE=phygon;49937757]No, not really[/QUOTE] punishment is integral to every justice system on the planet, and punishment is a form of revenge.

It was actually Breivik's case that originally swung me over to a serious appreciation and respect for rehabilitative prison systems. My initial horror at Oslo was the same as many others: I wanted Breivik to suffer, and I wanted him to die. It was one of the single most horrifying acts of violence I had ever seen. Yet, so many of the Norwegian people I talked to about it, many of them right here on Facepunch, argued against the death penalty for him. Furthermore, the prison system still treated him with dignity and respect. It changed my entire perspective. If the absolute worst of the worst, a man truly beyond redemption, can be safely imprisoned and yet still be treated with respect to his rights, comfort, and security like any other human being, then why the hell shouldn't anybody else? While I may now still accept that some men simply can't be rehabilitated, it was Breivik's case that changed my perspective on what prison is or should be. All prisoners should be held with as much respect to their comforts and rights as is safe to give them, regardless of their crimes. Prison is a place to help those who have made the wrong decisions realize their mistakes and improves themselves, not a place to torture, humilitate, abuse, or neglect them for those mistakes. And for those whose "mistakes" are as deliberate and heinous as Breivik's? For those who show no remorse, admit no wrong, and are legitimately incapable of ever being safely returned to society? Prison exists as a place to safely and humanely contain them, protecting society from any further offense or injury.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49948202]It was actually Breivik's case that originally swung me over to a serious appreciation and respect for rehabilitative prison systems. My initial horror at Oslo was the same as many others: I wanted Breivik to suffer, and I wanted him to die. It was one of the single most horrifying acts of violence I had ever seen. Yet, so many of the Norwegian people I talked to about it, many of them right here on Facepunch, argued against the death penalty for him. Furthermore, the prison system still treated him with dignity and respect. It changed my entire perspective. If the absolute worst of the worst, a man truly beyond redemption, can be safely imprisoned and yet still be treated with respect to his rights, comfort, and security like any other human being, then why the hell shouldn't anybody else? While I may now still accept that some men simply can't be rehabilitated, it was Breivik's case that changed my perspective on what prison is or should be. All prisoners should be treated as such, with as much respect to their comforts and rights as is safe to give them. Prison is a place to help those who have made the wrong decisions realize their mistakes and improves themselves, not a place to torture, humilitate, abuse, or neglect them for those mistakes. And for those whose "mistakes" are as deliberate and heinous as this? For those who show no remorse, admit no wrong, and are legitimately incapable of ever being safely returned to society? Prison exists as a place to safely and humanely contain them, protecting society from any further offense or injury.[/QUOTE] Excellent post. If you look at prison as a treatment center, things become a lot more clear. Like I said earlier, if we can treat/help someone, we should. If we are unable to, we should do whatever we can to make them conforatable. They are still part of our society.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;49947818]punishment is integral to every justice system on the planet, and punishment is a form of revenge.[/QUOTE] That doesn't mean it is necessary. You need to prevent the person committing the crime from doing it again, punishment doesn't always help with that.

[QUOTE=ASIC;49950066]That doesn't mean it is necessary. You need to prevent the person committing the crime from doing it again, punishment doesn't always help with that.[/QUOTE] i can't even imagine a justice system with no form of punishment. even the norwegian system has an aspect of punishment, specifically the restriction of liberty. a fine is a punishment. required community service is a punitive measure. hell, even a stern scolding is a punishment. [editline]17th March 2016[/editline] the only thing i can think of that would be an entirely punishment-free justice system would be that the state acknowledges your crimes and takes no.action, even then you'd face social consequences of your actions.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;49950167]i can't even imagine a justice system with no form of punishment. even the norwegian system has an aspect of punishment, specifically the restriction of liberty. a fine is a punishment. required community service is a punitive measure. hell, even a stern scolding is a punishment. [editline]17th March 2016[/editline] the only thing i can think of that would be an entirely punishment-free justice system would be that the state acknowledges your crimes and takes no.action, even then you'd face social consequences of your actions.[/QUOTE] Imprisoning people does typically prevent them from re-offending while they are in prison.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;49935918]No it's not, it's a further form of punishment. [/QUOTE] I single out this part of your post because the rest of it is based on this premise you set; which is wrong. The point of prison is not [I]punishment.[/I] Despite the American prison system. Prison's supposed to keep dangerous individuals away from society and, if possible, rehabilitate them, if not, keep them away from society forever. "Punishment" is a childish emotional response, not productive or good in any way. [editline]17th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;49938846] If that happened in America people would be committing crimes more than they already do just to get into jail. Yes, America has an issue with criminals straight up committing crimes just so they can go to jail and get some free treatment. Especially in winters. Now give them TVs, a nice room(much nicer than anything someone homeless would have) A computer, and a Playstation and games, heated/AC/ free food cooked for you, and able to cook your own if you want, all supplied for you. Nah dude I totally dont see anyone taking advantage of that, nor do I see it costing a fuck load of money from people who will generally never use it while those with no money get access to it all. [B]I want this fucking guys TV/PS2/Computer gone and his shitter in his room, apparently thats inhumane or some travesty. People here are pretty deluded sometimes in surprising ways.[/B] [/QUOTE] Good thing Norway is not America then, I don't see your point, your whole rant says more about America and what it lacks than it does about Norway's prison system being "too nice" or something. The bolded part especially is nothing but a bunch of emotional trash, and the reason why you're not in charge of any prisons anywhere. People aren't arguing that not having a TV or a playstation is the worst thing a human can go through, people are arguing because your fervent desire to deprive him of these things is [I]pointless[/I] and your attitude is [I]childish[/I]. What's the point of taking these things away? No point except satisfying you personally. It's just entertainment. How is him having a TV and a console any different from having books or something? What's the point of bringing up cost, as if it's significant in any way? Guess what, homeless people's priority is probably not a fucking TV or a playstation, it's probably a fucking house. Houses are expensive, unlike televisions, which are worth pocket change compared to a house. I doubt any homeless person in Norway would want to go to prison for the purpose of having a TV rather than a bed and a roof, and I doubt that there is a significant amount of homeless people in Norway commiting crime just to go to prison. If they do in America or not is entirely irrelevant.