[QUOTE=Lonestriper;51219554]Some people really seem to have a weird fetishisation of the historical 'object' in this thread. A historical object doesn't have inherent properties through which value is derived. Historical value and importance is imbued into objects by people and communities. So maintaining historical and heritage sites is only useful if there is significant meaning attached to it from individuals, communities or societies. Seeing as no-one really uses this place to define their identity or their history, as they are embodied in other sites, very little importance can be found in it (This is of course excluding neo-nazi's claims to heritage, which are purposefully excluded) So why is there a problem? Because of its association with Hitler? Association can only go so far in creating historical value. Especially when the community and the Government are actively trying to control the meaning of the site to prevent it becoming a neo-nazi site. Is this a bad thing? You may think it is, but its part and parcel with the maintenance of heritage and historical sites. I'm certainly not batting my eyelids over an attempt by a community to control its hertiage, it happens all the time. Just because the worst criminal of the 20th century is involved doesn't mean we have to do anything differently than we already do.[/QUOTE]
Idk man coming from an archeaological perspective anything and everything has historic value.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51219323]Germany and Austria will literally throw you in jail if you deny what the Nazis did, I don't think that's their problem here. The man was just born in the house, isn't really anything relevant behind, it might be falling apart, and neo-nazis are evidently worshiping it, leaving the town with something of a reputation for being Hitler's birthplace rather than a nice little city on a river. Really isn't surprising they would rather replace it.[/QUOTE]
Whether you like it or not, Hitler was born in that town, in that house. Theres nothing you can do to change that. You can demolish buildings and censor text books but nothing will ever change that fact. Germany and Austria as a whole are [i]generally[/i] remembered as the nations that fathered one of the worst genocides in human history. People don't think of the beautiful landscape and the alps, they think of black and grey uniforms marching into other countries.
Demolishing the house won't suddenly make Neo Nazis quit coming to the town to pay homage to it, doesn't work like that. History should be remembered, not just stuff that warms your heart but the bad stuff too.
... and what [I]I'm[/I] saying is that Hitlerogical context aside, it's short-sighted and idiotic to begin demolishing historic (in the sense that they were built long ago) buildings because of wild hairs like this. Let it [I]go.[/I]
[QUOTE=bdd458;51219579]Idk man coming from an archeaological perspective anything and everything has historic value.[/QUOTE]
In the sense that they are 'of the past', yes. But its a pretty useless way to ascribe value especially when you are attempting to interpret them.
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;51219343]I feel like this proves my point, historical places need renovation to not fall into disrepair and could be very expensive for this Austrian town and seems like the Government doesn't want to keep up with it.[/QUOTE]
This doesn't really apply to this particular case, but generally historical sites, while expensive, do bring in lots of revenue for the local communities and businesses via tourism. That alone tends to justify the upkeep, not to mention the fact that a site could be rather important to a town or country.
But just because a historical site's upkeep is expensive isn't a good reason to demolish it. Hitler was an absolutely evil man and a villain, and that alone, at least to me, is justification enough to keep places like this standing. Hitler and all aspects of his life should be remembered and preserved so people will always have the opportunity to learn about him and his actions.
[editline]18th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=bdd458;51219579]Idk man coming from an archeaological perspective anything and everything has historic value.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Hitler is kind of up there when it comes to very important historical figures. He's obviously more important to human history than a peasant who died in the dark ages.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51219609]This doesn't really apply to this particular case, but generally historical sites, while expensive, do bring in lots of revenue for the local communities and businesses via tourism. That alone tends to justify the upkeep, not to mention the fact that a site could be rather important to a town or country.
But just because a historical site's upkeep is expensive isn't a good reason to demolish it. Hitler was an absolutely evil man and a villain, and that alone, at least to me, is justification enough to keep places like this standing. Hitler and all aspects of his life should be remembered and preserved so people will always have the opportunity to learn about him and his actions.
[editline]18th October 2016[/editline]
Not really. Hitler is kind of up there when it comes to very important historical figures. He's obviously more important to human history than a peasant who died in the dark ages.[/QUOTE]
Question: Do you feel bad about the loss of the fuhrerbunker or any other previously demolished Nazi sites?
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51219609]Not really. Hitler is kind of up there when it comes to very important historical figures. He's obviously more important to human history than a peasant who died in the dark ages.[/QUOTE]
archaeology is about interpreting and understanding the cultures of the past, so that peasant would actually probably have more relevance ;)
Uh, I'm less concerned with the whole Hitler relation and historical preservation, doesn't somebody own this house, and why is it going to be demolished against their will? Isn't it their property? Is it failing any codes that would require it to be condemned or is it still perfectly serviceable, or in need of quick repairs?
The article doesn't explain much, other than it seems the government has been forcibly renting the house "to prevent misuse" and now wants to bulldoze it, and of course the owner with a financial investment in the building wants it to stay up.
I don't care if Jesus or the Anti-Christ lived there, it's somebody's property now and it seems wrong to just take it away "because somebody bad grew up there."
It's a piece of history ffs. 'Demolish it or change it's use'? GO FOR THE LATTER.
if it has to be torn down please fully laser scan it and retain records of the composition of materials used in construction of it for future archaeological use
[editline]18th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;51219834]Uh, I'm less concerned with the whole Hitler relation and historical preservation, doesn't somebody own this house, and why is it going to be demolished against their will? Isn't it their property? Is it failing any codes that would require it to be condemned or is it still perfectly serviceable, or in need of quick repairs?
The article doesn't explain much, other than it seems the government has been forcibly renting the house "to prevent misuse" and now wants to bulldoze it, and of course the owner with a financial investment in the building wants it to stay up.
I don't care if Jesus or the Anti-Christ lived there, it's somebody's property now and it seems wrong to just take it away "because somebody bad grew up there."[/QUOTE]
also this, i really dislike the government taking people's property. the very least i would begrudgingly accept would be the government offering to pay many times the property's value with the owner being the final decider on the deal
people in this thread here seems to act like this isn't about hitler himself but literally the [B]only reason[/B] its considered historic is because hitler was born there
like literally zero of you would give a single damn if it was just some old ass building getting demo'd because the owner got bored
seriously what the fuck is the [B]POINT[/B]
[editline]18th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51219595]... and what [I]I'm[/I] saying is that Hitlerogical context aside, it's short-sighted and idiotic to begin demolishing historic (in the sense that they were built long ago) buildings because of wild hairs like this. Let it [I]go.[/I][/QUOTE]
This isn't a building that was used to free slaves, or used a building that was used to plan some great war, or a building where a leader held some legendary meeting that saved an entire town or something and had a shootout in. It's not being turned into a museum to continue any cause. It's not a statue to honor someone great and wonderful and mourn their death. No one is going to use it. This just happens to be a place a man was born in. it doesn't have any real value research wise, and if it really won't be used for anything meaningful, why even keep it up. This isn't even a monument to someone good and moral and valuable to society, in fact, its the opposite.
Keeping buildings up purely "Because its old and that automagically makes them historical buildings" is simply a non-reason. The only reason you think this is historical is because a massively famous person was born in it, and pretending otherwise is kind of stupid.
Like, if you truly can't use it for [I]anything [/I]and it's just abandoned, just let it go. Let it be replaced. What is the point. There are so many buildings that are "Old" buildings. Should we just let them be abandoned and unused too because you feel that makes the valuable? We can't keep every building an Adolf Hitler or Putin was born in up just because "It's old"
Hell, if Hitler wasn't born in it, and it was instead being demolished becase the owner was too lazy to change the color on the door, you would never have even heard of it
This is some IS tier bullshit
Isn't it like private property? It just seems like if they are using the argument that a mass murder lived there during his child hood then that argument should be extended to other crimes of that nature.
Eg. Mass Shooters, Stabbers, Etc.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51217869]lmao
is it still standing? does it rain inside the building?
you're one of those people that sues if the table fan doesn't tell you not to stick your fingers in it, aren't you?[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah dude whatever you do don't try to raise any valid points, that'd make your argument legitimate 😌
[editline]18th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51219595]... and what [I]I'm[/I] saying is that Hitlerogical context aside, it's short-sighted and idiotic to begin demolishing historic (in the sense that they were built long ago) buildings because of wild hairs like this. Let it [I]go.[/I][/QUOTE]
There's no -wild hairs-, idk what the fuck you're on about.
You're straight up saying that because Hitler killed folks, the place should never be demolished. Like do you understand how loose and brainless that reasoning is or does it need to be spelled out
And the hilarious thing is at the end of the day all this asinine whining means nothing, cause it's probably gonna happen! If they can take down the fuhrerbunker they can damn well tear down a normal old home. Sorry?
[editline]18th October 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51219590]Whether you like it or not, Hitler was born in that town, in that house. Theres nothing you can do to change that. You can demolish buildings and censor text books but nothing will ever change that fact. Germany and Austria as a whole are [i]generally[/i] remembered as the nations that fathered one of the worst genocides in human history. People don't think of the beautiful landscape and the alps, they think of black and grey uniforms marching into other countries.
Demolishing the house won't suddenly make Neo Nazis quit coming to the town to pay homage to it, doesn't work like that. History should be remembered, not just stuff that warms your heart but the bad stuff too.[/QUOTE]
Who the fuck is saying were 'forgetting history' here?! Like are we third graders that need a physical place as context to help us understand that Hitler was a real person that did real bad things? Cause I'm pretty sure the death camps do a much more compelling job of teaching us about his atrocities than his shit house
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;51219631]Question: Do you feel bad about the loss of the fuhrerbunker or any other previously demolished Nazi sites?[/QUOTE]
I feel bad about any historical WWII era site that was lost or destroyed. WWII is a subject of profound interest to me and is very sentimental to me, not just the subject of Hitler.
[QUOTE=bdd458;51219643]archaeology is about interpreting and understanding the cultures of the past, so that peasant would actually probably have more relevance ;)[/QUOTE]
I disagree; the man who nearly exterminated an entire people from Europe is of more relevance than 1 of a million serfs.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51221092]
Who the fuck is saying were 'forgetting history' here?![/quote]
I don't know who said that so I don't know why you're bringing that up? :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;51221092] Like are we third graders that need a physical place as context to help us understand that Hitler was a real person that did real bad things? Cause I'm pretty sure the death camps do a much more compelling job of teaching us about his atrocities than his shit house[/QUOTE]
I don't personally need a physical site to understand things, but a lot of people do. WWII and the Nazis in general are extremely played out in all sorts of media. For some people, it's hard to quantify the fact that these events really happened and that Hitler was a real person with his own life and upbringing. This is why the preservation and exhibition of his home would help people understand that Hitler was a real person, even before Sept. 1 1939.
We must move on. History like what happen back in the day must be forgotten.
Human history must be forgotten.
[QUOTE=tomatmann;51225216]Human history must be forgotten.[/QUOTE]
So, based on that, a) should history not be studied on an academic level?, b) should history no longer be taught in schools, and c) what's the cut-off date? How old must events be before they get forgotten?
[QUOTE=tomatmann;51225216]We must move on. History like what happen back in the day must be forgotten.
Human history must be forgotten.[/QUOTE]
This is followed 200 years later with some history show that boils down to "the mindset in the early 21st century meant that these assholes believed it was in the best interest to destroy this."
[QUOTE=tomatmann;51225216]We must move on. History like what happen back in the day must be forgotten.
Human history must be forgotten.[/QUOTE]
The fuck are you talking about?
Not really sure why anyone's bothered about this to be honest. I know it might seem like history revisionism or erasing an important monument, but nothing important happened there. There's nothing you could learn from visiting that site apart from that Hitler was born there. It's not even like an ancestral home or anything of relevance, it's just a place that his family rented a room in when he was born.
By all means, keep the uniforms, the documents, the places where speeches and rallies were held intact. Keep the weapons and vehicles from the war preserved, maybe even keep a building that was bombed intact, because that can tell you more than just seeing a picture of it, or hearing about it. What's the story that this place tells though?
what if, the history they teach the kids, makes what people want to become?
if people didn't learn about nazism or stuff like that, people wouldn't become neo nazis and stuff?
they should destroy that building!
Herein this rustic cafe Hitler once took a shit, it's an affront to humanity to tear it down!
[QUOTE=tomatmann;51226635]what if, the history they teach the kids, makes what people want to become?
if people didn't learn about nazism or stuff like that, people wouldn't become neo nazis and stuff?
they should destroy that building![/QUOTE]
Except Hitler became a Nazi himself without any real movement before that?
Communism wouldnt be communism without Marx or Lenin
[QUOTE=J!NX;51220312]people in this thread here seems to act like this isn't about hitler himself but literally the [B]only reason[/B] its considered historic is because hitler was born there
like literally zero of you would give a single damn if it was just some old ass building getting demo'd because the owner got bored
seriously what the fuck is the [B]POINT[/B]
[editline]18th October 2016[/editline]
This isn't a building that was used to free slaves, or used a building that was used to plan some great war, or a building where a leader held some legendary meeting that saved an entire town or something and had a shootout in. It's not being turned into a museum to continue any cause. It's not a statue to honor someone great and wonderful and mourn their death. No one is going to use it. This just happens to be a place a man was born in. it doesn't have any real value research wise, and if it really won't be used for anything meaningful, why even keep it up. This isn't even a monument to someone good and moral and valuable to society, in fact, its the opposite.
Keeping buildings up purely "Because its old and that automagically makes them historical buildings" is simply a non-reason. The only reason you think this is historical is because a massively famous person was born in it, and pretending otherwise is kind of stupid.
Like, if you truly can't use it for [I]anything [/I]and it's just abandoned, just let it go. Let it be replaced. What is the point. There are so many buildings that are "Old" buildings. Should we just let them be abandoned and unused too because you feel that makes the valuable? We can't keep every building an Adolf Hitler or Putin was born in up just because "It's old"
Hell, if Hitler wasn't born in it, and it was instead being demolished becase the owner was too lazy to change the color on the door, you would never have even heard of it[/QUOTE]
wtf are you talking about? It's historical because it was built 150 years ago, it's in a historical district of the city which is historical because it was built 150 years ago, it's a historic building because it's been standing for 150 years. I have a 110 year old shotgun, it's not just some shotgun, it's a historic shotgun and it gets special attention that my modern guns don't get because it has stories to tell. Hitler doesn't need to have been born in my shotgun for it to be historic. Historic buildings should be preserved where possible and there's absolutely nothing preventing this one from being preserved except some assholes think it should be torn down because Hitler, by complete coincidence, was born in it. The building is perfectly usable like all the other historic buildings around it.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/CcAtJzc.jpg[/t]
This is my city's courthouse, it was finished in 1886, it's historic. The buildings around it are all from the same time period. Nobody famous was born there but if someone came along and tore it down for arbitrary reasons I'd be livid.
Is it so unbelievable to you that someone could genuinely treasure history without an ulterior motive like secretly being a Nazi? What's your deal? Mindsets like yours are why we'll have no connections to the past in very short order. Like really? Nah fuck it it's old must be junk tear it down :))))
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;51226610]What's the story that this place tells though?[/QUOTE]
What life was like for an average middle class family in Austria in the late 1800s. Building and Architectural practices from the same period, the economics of a building project such as it (such where the material comes from). There's a lot actually.
[QUOTE=tomatmann;51225216]We must move on. History like what happen back in the day must be forgotten.
Human history must be forgotten.[/QUOTE]
This is so fucking alarming to read
You can't be serious, can you?
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51216795]Don't want it to be used as a shrine for Neo Nazis? Turn it into a museum for tolerance, love, and peace.[/QUOTE]
turn it into a [I]jewish[/I] museum for tolerance, love and peace
[QUOTE=bdd458;51226719]What life was like for an average middle class family in Austria in the late 1800s. Building and Architectural practices from the same period, the economics of a building project such as it (such where the material comes from). There's a lot actually.[/QUOTE]
Well it's not like it's been kept as it was in the late 1800s. The building was actually used as a centre for people with disabilities.
It's true that it's part of the historic district which is why people oppose it's demolition, but at the same time, the only people who come to see it because of the Hitler thing do so out of adoration.
[QUOTE=Menien Goneld;51226828]Well it's not like it's been kept as it was in the late 1800s. The building was actually used as a centre for people with disabilities.
It's true that it's part of the historic district which is why people oppose it's demolition, but at the same time, the only people who come to see it because of the Hitler thing do so out of adoration.[/QUOTE]
Honestly who cares if some misguided fools come to visit it? Its not like the building justifies their movement, and its not like its destruction will make it go away either. They could just as likely make a pilgrimage to the wolfs lair or to the bunker Hitler died in, or what ever is left of them.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51226689]wtf are you talking about? It's historical because it was built 150 years ago, it's in a historical district of the city which is historical because it was built 150 years ago, it's a historic building because it's been standing for 150 years. I have a 110 year old shotgun, it's not just some shotgun, it's a historic shotgun and it gets special attention that my modern guns don't get because it has stories to tell. Hitler doesn't need to have been born in my shotgun for it to be historic. Historic buildings should be preserved where possible and there's absolutely nothing preventing this one from being preserved except some assholes think it should be torn down because Hitler, by complete coincidence, was born in it. The building is perfectly usable like all the other historic buildings around it.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/CcAtJzc.jpg[/t]
This is my city's courthouse, it was finished in 1886, it's historic. The buildings around it are all from the same time period. Nobody famous was born there but if someone came along and tore it down for arbitrary reasons I'd be livid.
Is it so unbelievable to you that someone could genuinely treasure history without an ulterior motive like secretly being a Nazi? What's your deal? Mindsets like yours are why we'll have no connections to the past in very short order. Like really? Nah fuck it it's old must be junk tear it down :))))[/QUOTE]
Okay its very clear you're just gonna ignore any rational conversation about this, we've discussed -repeatedly- why this is a much different case than 'oh but i like old buildings!!!!'
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