Nevada Republican Caucus: Projection Trump won - Polidicks

[QUOTE=wystan;49804549]I don't know where people get the idea the Americans [i]won't[/i] do these jobs if need be. Also if you build a wall, it would force people to seek legal avenues.[/QUOTE]the legal avenues are not there on the scale that you need to replace that labour without immigration reform it is not a matter of if they won't, it's a matter of are you okay with making americans do low wage low skill jobs when they're graduating high school & want to move onto something that requires more skill. answer: how do you get more low skilled legal immigrants without reforming a system that makes it nearly impossible for low skilled workers to come here legally why would young americans want to be paid starvation wages to do hard labor? is that okay?

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804557]cool give me a design for a wall that a) won't cost billions b) actually does anything (go and watch the penn and teller episode on illegal immigrants, it even features a wall!)[/QUOTE] Well, I would hope the US Army Corp of Engineers builds it so it falls under the massive near 600 Billion dollar military budget. If they can literally cut a country in half in the early 1900s, they can certainly build a wall. [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804563]the legal avenues are not there on the scale that you need to replace that labour without immigration reform it is not a matter of if they won't, it's a matter of are you okay with making americans do low wage low skill jobs when they're graduating high school & want to move onto something that requires more skill. answer: how do you get more low skilled legal immigrants without reforming a system that makes it nearly impossible for low skilled workers to come here legally why would young americans want to be paid starvation wages to do hard labor? is that okay?[/QUOTE] Americans would be getting paid minimum wage or better, you're supposed to work shit jobs during High School and College, I had no qualms doing hard labor when I did it, frankly I enjoyed it.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804566]Well, I would hope the US Army Corp of Engineers builds it so it falls under the massive near 600 Billion dollar military budget.[/QUOTE]do you understand how budgets work lol

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804542] "illegals" they're fucking people, grow up[/QUOTE] It's not a derogatory term, don't act like it suddenly is.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804566]Well, I would hope the US Army Corp of Engineers builds it so it falls under the massive near 600 Billion dollar military budget. [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] Americans would be getting paid minimum wage or better, you're supposed to work shit jobs during High School and College, I had no qualms doing hard labor when I did it, frankly I enjoyed it.[/QUOTE] okay so the money appears out of nowhere because the US military has a budget no you've got no justification for this, no proof that shows a wall actually works, no argument against the fact that the US agricultural sector relies heavily on illegal immigration i'm actually glad i saw this thread, because i've never actually found someone who sincerely believed in the trump wall and didn't use it as a joke, but now i've witnessed the insane mental gymnastics that you have to perform to actually see it as a viable thing

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804511]yes because it's well known that entire sectors of the economy are very good adapting to sudden shifts in labour climate (no) [/QUOTE] Yes because it's well known for governments, especially the American government, to act swiftly in enforcing such changes, leaving entire sectors no chance for breath in changing (no)

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804578]do you understand how budgets work lol[/QUOTE] I hope you didn't seriously believe I was implying that whole thing was a virtual blank check to go towards the wall, but if we can drain trillions of dollars on a jet that can hover, we can spend billions on a wall.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804566]Well, I would hope the US Army Corp of Engineers builds it so it falls under the massive near 600 Billion dollar military budget. If they can literally cut a country in half in the early 1900s, they can certainly build a wall. [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] Americans would be getting paid minimum wage or better, you're supposed to work shit jobs during High School and College, I had no qualms doing hard labor when I did it, frankly I enjoyed it.[/QUOTE]"you're supposed to work shit jobs during high school and college" lol

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49804581]It's not a derogatory term, don't act like it suddenly is.[/QUOTE] [img]http://i.imgur.com/JBpc8MY.png[/img] [B]AMAZING[/B] [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] FUCK YOU COULDN'T HAVE PICKED A BETTER WORD TO USE THERE COULD YOU SCORPIOUS

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804591]"you're supposed to work shit jobs during high school and college" lol[/QUOTE] Yea, you've never worked a day in your life.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49804587]Yes because it's well known for governments, especially the American government, to act swiftly in enforcing such changes, leaving entire sectors no chance for breath in changing (no)[/QUOTE] But that is what Trump is going for and what a Wall would actually mean.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804601]Yea, you've never worked a day in your life.[/QUOTE]there's a difference between the types of jobs high schoolers do and working in the farming/agricultural/forestry industry, you understand that right? are you seriously saying you want high schoolers to be paid starvation wages, doing incredibly hard work, just to spite some illegals? i mean.. no i've not worked on a farm for 40+% less average wages than a legal worker, i guess?

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804585]okay so the money appears out of nowhere because the US military has a budget no you've got no justification for this, no proof that shows a wall actually works, no argument against the fact that the US agricultural sector relies heavily on illegal immigration i'm actually glad i saw this thread, because i've never actually found someone who sincerely believed in the trump wall and didn't use it as a joke, but now i've witnessed the insane mental gymnastics that you have to perform to actually see it as a viable thing[/QUOTE] Bigger walls have been built, why wouldn't it work? No, I'm not going to take the time to go watch a full P&T episode so I can watch their heavily biased way of conducting interviews and "experiments", which they at least have the self-awareness to label as bullshit.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804609]Bigger walls have been built, why wouldn't it work? No, I'm not going to take the time to go watch a full P&T episode so I can watch their heavily biased way of conducting interviews and "experiments", which they at least have the slef-awareness to label as bullshit.[/QUOTE]what does the wall do to help the lack of low-skilled workers in the US when there is no legal avenue for low-skilled workers to enter the country why are you building a wall when the undocumented worker numbers are declining? when the amount of mexicans coming into the country is declining? how does the wall stop undocumented workers, who more than half of them came over legally on visas, from becoming illegals? try to answer

[QUOTE=wystan;49804609]Bigger walls have been built, why wouldn't it work? No, I'm not going to take the time to go watch a full P&T episode so I can watch their heavily biased way of conducting interviews and "experiments", which they at least have the slef-awareness to label as bullshit.[/QUOTE] worth a shot i mean you don't read studies that are posted, so i thought you might watch a video and what walls what walls in the modern world have been built to keep out immigrants

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804608]there's a difference between the types of jobs high schoolers do and working in the farming/agricultural/forestry industry, you understand that right? are you seriously saying you want high schoolers to be paid starvation wages, doing incredibly hard work, just to spite some illegals? i mean.. no i've not worked on a farm for 40+% less average wages than a legal worker, i guess?[/QUOTE] "Starvation wages" lol what does that even mean. Americans would get paid the legal requirement, and what's wrong with hard work? It isn't spiting illegals, if it's a job an American can do, an American should do it.

I think you guys are forgetting that Trump is going to make Mexico pay for the wall. :smug:

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804615]worth a shot i mean you don't read studies that are posted, so i thought you might watch a video and what walls what walls in the modern world have been built to keep out immigrants[/QUOTE] None so far, so how can you be sure it wouldn't work? I was referring to historical walls just in terms of feasibility (Walls of Benin, Belfast Peace Lines, etc)

[QUOTE=wystan;49804616]"Starvation wages" lol what does that even mean. Americans would get paid the legal requirement, and what's wrong with hard work? It isn't spiting illegals, if it's a job an American can do, an American should do it.[/QUOTE]the average cost of living in the US is $28,474 a [B]full time[/B] minimum-wage worker earns $15,080, where do you make up for the amount of full-time work needed when high school students & college students cannot work full time? also no one is saying you can't build a wall.. please explain what the wall does to help the labour issue

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804631]the average cost of living in the US is $28,474 a [B]full time[/B] minimum-wage worker earns $15,080, where do you make up for the amount of full-time work needed when high school students & college students cannot work full time? also no one is saying you can't build a wall.. please explain what the wall does to help the labour issue[/QUOTE] That isn't a fair comparison of numbers since each state has a different cost of living and many have a higher minimum wage, just taking an average of all 50 is inaccurate. I made off of PART-TIME minimum wage and tips because I didn't spend like an idiot and knew how to spend my money.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804629]None so far, so how can you be sure it wouldn't work? I was referring to historical walls just in terms of feasibility (Walls of Benin, Belfast Peace Lines, etc)[/QUOTE] okay so your example is a wall that was built over the space of 7 centuries, which was finished over 500 years ago in Nigeria or a wall in a city that covered a FRANKLY WHOPPING [B]34KM[/B] and they weren't even made to keep immigrants out, but to split troublesome communities those are your examples?? for a proposed wall in 2016 covering over 3000km??

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804662]okay so your example is a wall that was built over the space of 7 centuries, which was finished over 500 years ago in Nigeria or a wall in a city that covered a FRANKLY WHOPPING [B]34KM[/B] and they weren't even made to keep immigrants out, but to split troublesome communities those are your examples??[/QUOTE] I'm not going to spoonfeed you a list of walls. Explain to me how it isn't feasible. Walls are not complex structures.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804667]I'm not going to spoonfeed you a list of walls. Explain to me how it isn't feasible. Walls are not complex structures.[/QUOTE] you actually have to give a reason why you'd think it'd work the onus is on you to actually show why building an over 3000km wall is feasible the penn and teller video is very funny and clever, you should watch it! also, you're not going to spoonfeed me walls, because you probably realise that nobody uses walls to prevent immigration because that's ridiculous, and there are no modern day examples of walls on this scale (because nobody likes burning money) [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] like, this is age of empires 2 logic and i love it so much, gotta build a wall to keep the enemies out guys

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804681]you actually have to give a reason why you'd think it'd work the onus is on you to actually show why building an over 3000km wall is feasible the penn and teller video is very funny and clever, you should watch it![/QUOTE] Larger walls have been built, and with modern technology I bet building something would not be difficult. I don't see how a wall meant to prevent immigration is much different than one built for defensive military purposes.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49804606]But that is what Trump is going for and what a Wall would actually mean.[/QUOTE] Then Trump, like Obama before him, will have the harsh realities of how Congress functions known to him fast.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804691]Larger walls have been built, and with modern technology I bet building something would not be difficult. I don't see how a wall meant to prevent immigration is much different than one built for defensive military purposes.[/QUOTE] that is not a reason why you think a wall would work for the american-mexico border and you don't see the difference between immigrants and an attacking army? seriously history shows that walls basically never prevent immigration, they might deter a military aggressor (who has different goals, different requirements for crossing the wall) but you're not talking about armies, you're talking about groups of people often small in size you've got no evidence that walls actually work to prevent immigration, none at all [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] cool! Here's an article about why the wall is so logistically implausible too! [url]http://www.nationalmemo.com/an-engineer-explains-why-trumps-wall-is-so-implausible[/url]

[QUOTE=wystan;49804644]That isn't a fair comparison of numbers since each state has a different cost of living and many have a higher minimum wage, just taking an average of all 50 is inaccurate. I made off of PART-TIME minimum wage and tips because I didn't spend like an idiot and knew how to spend my money.[/QUOTE]how can you not see the difference between you and an undocumented worker, they are not in a position to work part-time let's take the states that have the largest % of undocumented workers in their labor force and what people would be paid if they were replaced by legal citizens, this is pre-tax too Nevada (10%): working [B]40 hours[/B] a week at minimum wage of $8.25, $15,840~ a year. California (9%): working [B]40 hours[/B] a week at minimum wage of $10, $19,200~ a year. Texas (9%): working [B]40 hours[/B] a week at minimum wage of $7.25, $13,920~ a year. New Jersey (8%): working [B]40 hours[/B] a week at minimum wage of $8.38, $16,089~ a year. with undocumented workers working longer hours than the average american, how are you going to make up with the lack of low skilled workers with high schoolers and college students for such a low amount of money? even less because they are presumably going to be working part-time?? and undocumented workers would be lucky to even get paid minimum wage & yet they are working longer hours.. you see how your plan doesn't add up? now tell me, how do you manage to replace undocumented workers without forcing high school students to live on terrible wages & work hours that they do not have? how is that not a worse option than helping undocumented workers on a path towards citizenship rather than making high school students & college grads do menial labour? 3.3 million students are going to graduate from high school yearly, how does that make up for the 8 million (who work full time) that are going to be deported? you gonna make every single one of those students work these jobs? what happens when they want to move on? what happens when they don't want to work full time?

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49804717]that is not a reason why you think a wall would work for the american-mexico border and you don't see the difference between immigrants and an attacking army? seriously history shows that walls basically never prevent immigration, they might deter a military aggressor (who has different goals, different requirements for crossing the wall) but you're not talking about armies, you're talking about groups of people often small in size you've got no evidence that walls actually work to prevent immigration, none at all[/QUOTE] You've got no evidence that they don't. Has it been tried before? If anything I would think it's easier to "defend" against small groups of people than an army.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804758]You've got no evidence that they don't. Has it been tried before? If anything I would think it's easier to "defend" against small groups of people than an army.[/QUOTE]in what way does a wall help stop illegal immigration when the majority of undocumented workers came through legally? [B]why are you building a wall when illegal immigration population is declining and the amount of mexican immigrants coming to the US is declining?[/B]

[QUOTE=wystan;49804758][B]You've got no evidence that they don't[/B]. Has it been tried before? If anything I would think it's easier to "defend" against small groups of people than an army.[/QUOTE] [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance[/URL] what you're doing is an informal fallacy [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] [quote]In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.[/quote] shit i think wikipedia called this one also linking this a bit more [url]http://www.nationalmemo.com/an-engineer-explains-why-trumps-wall-is-so-implausible/[/url]