Nevada Republican Caucus: Projection Trump won - Polidicks

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804996]undocumented workers and illegal immigrants are the same thing lmao[/QUOTE] You said immigrants. [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804996]undocumented workers and illegal immigrants are the same thing lmao the majority of illegal immigrants came through legally, and not by crossing the border sneakily[/QUOTE] Explain how an illegal immigrant comes across legally? Are you referring to people over staying their visa?

[QUOTE=wystan;49804988]You should stop leaving out the word illegal talking about this subject. I'm sorry people who came here illegally and showed no respect for our borders and laws don't get welcomed with open arms. [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] What are expired [b]work[/b] visas?[/QUOTE] illegal immigrants because their documentation has expired, meaning that they are working without documentation guys we need to deal with the problem of those documented, visa-holding undocumented workers who are undocumented but become illegal when their documents expired

[QUOTE=wystan;49804976]Work Visas mean you are undocumented [/QUOTE] This is it. I am out. Guys this is exactly the kind of people who vote for trump.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804998]You said immigrants.[/QUOTE]we're talking bigotry about a specific type of immigrant, that's what we've been talking about for the past 5 pages. i find the way you reply interesting, you do this: 1. read the post 2. find one part of the post you can take issue with, usually semantically or by misunderstanding basic concepts 3. ignore the rest of the post because otherwise you have to confront statistics & facts because you are arguing from principle rather than reality "Explain how an illegal immigrant comes across legally? Are you referring to people over staying their visa?" they come through legally with a visa, they then overstay their visa. the majority of illegal immigrants in the US do this. a wall does not solve this. this shows you have a basic misunderstanding of the reality of illegal immigration in your country.

[QUOTE=wystan;49804998]You said immigrants. [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] Explain how an illegal immigrant comes across legally? Are you referring to people over staying their visa?[/QUOTE] FFS did you read the thread? [QUOTE=benzi2k7;49804247]you want some fuckin facts bro here u go "There were 5.6 million Mexican unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. in 2014, down from 6.4 million in 2009, according to preliminary Pew Research Center estimates." why build a wall? [B] "Nearly half of the 12 million-plus illegal aliens in America arrived legally with temporary, non-immigrant visas. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) estimates that a 'substantial' percentage of America’s illegal population is made up of visa overstays — their estimates range from 27 to 57 percent"[/B] why build a wall? "The vast majority of farm workers – 78% according to the most recent National Agricultural Workers Survey– are foreign-born and crossed a border to get here." how are you going to replace those workers? are americans willing to put up with earning on average $10,000 - $12,000 a year? are you okay with that? "It is estimated that at least 6 out of 10 of our country’s farm workers are undocumented" where are you gonna get those replacements, willing to work for shit pay? when they're coming out of high school or at college? you expect them to do this work? that is morally wrong. "Frankly the best way to stop all this is fix Mexico" maybe stop implementing trade deals like NAFTA that flood Mexico with american corn forcing them to come north to work? you literally just admitted that there is no way that americans can keep up with the demand of low skilled jobs. how does kicking out all the low skilled workers solve this at all!? how can you solve this issue without importing labor? americans are not willing, and should not have to, work in low wage jobs when they are high school graduates or at college. it is sad for the undocumented workers also that they get paid so little but they are willing, so why not make use of them while also improve labor and pay standards?! why not put effort into benevolent options rather than build a wall that solves nothing. the low skilled workers are [B]needed [/B]and it not possible to get those low skilled workers from america without exploiting the lower class. [URL="http://nfwm-yaya.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/pdf_Timeline-of-Agricultural-Labor.pdf"] http://nfwm-yaya.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/pdf_Timeline-of-Agricultural-Labor.pdf[/URL] [URL]http://nfwm.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/12.9.13-h2a-short-farm-workers-and-migration.pdf[/URL] [URL]http://nfwm.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/h2a-presentation-final-short-12.9.13-.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;49805013]we're talking bigotry about a specific type of immigrant, that's what we've been talking about for the past 5 pages. i find the way you reply interesting, you do this: 1. read the post 2. find one part of the post you can take issue with, usually semantically or by misunderstanding basic concepts 3. ignore the rest of the post because otherwise you have to confront statistics & facts because you are arguing from principle rather than reality[/QUOTE] Doesn't help that we all keep editing our posts after posting, everything gets staggered, chill out.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49805006]This is it. I am out. Guys this is exactly the kind of people who vote for trump.[/QUOTE] NO COME BACK we need to deal with these undocumented documented workers reality is literally being torn apart by their existence

[QUOTE=wystan;49805020]Doesn't help that we all keep editing our posts after posting, everything gets staggered, chill out.[/QUOTE]you do this with every single post, you do not reply to an unedited post or confront facts or statistics. even when you do talk about the facts & stats you do not talk about the stats themselves but rather the trustworthiness of the facts. you're getting further and further away from even having an argument so this is fun lol

[QUOTE=Killuah;49805016]FFS did you read the thread?[/QUOTE] So yea, it was what I was referring to.

[QUOTE=wystan;49805027]So yea, it was what I was referring to.[/QUOTE] The post answering your question was what you were referring to when you posted the question long after it was already answered?

this thread has reached kafkaesque levels

[QUOTE=benzi2k7;49805025]you do this with every single post, you do not reply to an unedited post or confront facts or statistics. even when you do talk about the facts & stats you do not talk about the stats themselves but rather the trustworthiness of the facts. you're getting further and further away from even having an argument so this is fun lol[/QUOTE] What data do you want? I'm asking you to THINK about the situation, I ask why should I be okay with so many illegals in my country, you talk about the economic effect, I explain why it wouldn't be serious and not worth panicking over. The data provided doesn't change the fact I don't want people coming into my country illegally. Then you ask about immigration reform, and I say it doesn't need to be reformed, it shouldn't be easy to come here. We can do this all day, and effectively have.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49805053]this thread has reached kafkaesque levels[/QUOTE] this thread is great wystan has essentially created Schrödinger's Mexican. an immigrant who is simultaneously documented, but not documented - until he has been observed at a border gate. then he collapses into one of the two states

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49805080]this thread is great wystan has essentially created Schrödinger's Mexican. an immigrant who is simultaneously documented, but not documented - until he has been observed at a border gate. then he collapses into one of the two states[/QUOTE] Schrödinger's Mexican. I'll admit that made me smile.

[QUOTE=wystan;49805054]What data do you want? I'm asking you to THINK about the situation, I ask why should I be okay with so many illegals in my country, you talk about the economic effect, I explain why it wouldn't be serious and not worth panicking over. The data provided doesn't change the fact I don't want people coming into my country illegally. Then you ask about immigration reform, and I say it doesn't need to be reformed, it shouldn't be easy to come here. We can do this all day, and effectively have.[/QUOTE]right, i'm gonna try to answer you. [quote]"I ask why should I be okay with so many illegals in my country, you talk about the economic effect, I explain why it wouldn't be serious and not worth panicking over."[/quote] Donald Trump is running on a platform of making America great again, the audiences he is talking to aren't living wonderful lives. they have economical worries in their life. by using illegal immigrants as a scapegoat for the reason why america is implied to be no longer 'great' it becomes an economical issue. when you remove those workers from the country, it will have an economic impact on the voters he is talking to. [quote]"The data provided doesn't change the fact I don't want people coming into my country illegally."[/quote] the majority of illegal immigrants are coming to your country legally, they are then declared undocumented or illegal after their visas expire. due to the way your immigration system works it is difficult for them to renew that visa and remain there legally. they choose to remain in the country, because they work hard & contribute in taxes & take less from social services due to the fear of being deported. [quote]"Then you ask about immigration reform, and I say it doesn't need to be reformed, it shouldn't be easy to come here."[/quote] there is factually not enough low skilled workers in the united states to make up for the demand by industry. more jobs are created than people are born. without labour coming in through immigration, low skilled jobs would not be filled. fact. the current immigration system (with which the issues are relatively recent in the grand scheme of america) makes it difficult to come to america legally, whether that be illegally crossing (which is the minority) or overstaying a visa (because they cannot extend that visa easily regardless of the position they are in). now given the dilemma of illegal immigration you choose - to build a wall, which does not deal with the majority of illegal immigration in your country. now given the dilemma of lack of low skilled workers due to the average american having a high school education or higher & declining birthrates you choose - to build a wall, which does nothing to improve the job prospects of the average american or does nothing to stop immigrants crossing the border legally and then being stuck undocumented because no feasible systems are in place to help them towards a path towards citizenship. [quote]it shouldn't be easy to come here. [/quote] this is seemingly your principle, there is a difference between making it easy to immigrate and making it feasible as a low-skilled worker to immigrate to a country where they are in demand. they are given visas to work over in your country, and then after a while that visa is no longer valid. the main cause of immigrants being illegal in your country is due to them having no option to not be, eventually, considered illegal workers regardless of what they put into the system or their reason for going there. building a wall does not solve the issue of an immigration system that does not work. [editline]24th February 2016[/editline] the problem with your viewpoint is: illegal immigrants are people, and do not live in a vacuum. they are tied to every system within america. they put money into in america. they are tied to the employers that want them there. they put $100 billion dollars into social security and take less than the average american does from said system. in every way other than them having documentation they are model citizens of the united states of america. now, rather than seeing the context of why they become illegals you are obsessed with the concept of them being people who hop over the border. lets say 100% of them are hopping over the border, and are illegal on entry. what are they hopping over for? to work in the american economy, to do jobs that are not in demand by the american work force, to do jobs that are in demand by the american employer and are overall a huge boon to the people of america and it's economy as a whole. you find it okay to completely disregard every single positive aspect of them as people and declare them illegals and thus not deserving of being in your country, even when they were seemingly deserving when they got their visa and found themselves stuck in a position where they could no longer be there legally even if they wanted to be. even if they had children while they are in america, children who will contribute, they are somehow not deserving of being in america. it is all very well and good to talk hypotheticals and talk about principles but when you are supporting a solution that neither addresses the problem that the solution is for, and would be a waste of money when the solution is supposed to be making america 'great' again you find yourself in a weird place, hence why you have to argue from principle rather than reality.

Trump isn't trying to blame illegals for everything, he is more into bashing "our leaders", which even I get tired of hearing, I think it is erroneous to say his campaign is built on immigration, it is certainly a pillar, but it is not the reason he implies it is no longer great. Looking at the stats of all the means illegals by it overstaying Visas include margins of something like 27-57%, which is too large to safely say they are the majority, the amount of that come from "Illegal Entry" and those are the ones I want gone the most. The ones that at least have visas took some effort, but they need to be responsible for not overstaying them. I think you over estimate the impact of deporting illegals and the hole it would leave, should push come to shove I'm faithful it is a situation the US can find a solution to. If we can add millions of legal immigrants to our population each year, I think our system to becoming a citizen is working as intended. I won the lottery of being born an American so I can't pretend to know the process, but if millions of people can do it reliably each year, it isn't as flawed as people make it out to be. Also the model citizens of America are the Asian immigrants, there is a reason they are called the Model Minority.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/j3sAt17.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=wystan;49805174]Trump isn't trying to blame illegals for everything, he is more into bashing "our leaders", which even I get tired of hearing, I think it is erroneous to say his campaign is built on immigration, it is certainly a pillar, but it is not the reason he implies it is no longer great. Looking at the stats of all the means illegals by it overstaying Visas include margins of something like 27-57%, which is too large to safely say they are the majority, the amount of that come from "Illegal Entry" and those are the ones I want gone the most. The ones that at least have visas took some effort, but they need to be responsible for not overstaying them. I think you over estimate the impact of deporting illegals and the hole it would leave, should push come to shove I'm faithful it is a situation the US can find a solution to. If we can add millions of legal immigrants to our population each year, I think our system to becoming a citizen is working as intended. I won the lottery of being born an American so I can't pretend to know the process, but if millions of people can do it reliably each year, it isn't as flawed as people make it out to be. Also the model citizens of America are the Asian immigrants, there is a reason they are called the Model Minority.[/QUOTE]welp

[QUOTE=Svinnik;49805178][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/j3sAt17.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] The real question is, how many actual hispanic GOP voters are there? Percentages are nice, but I can't imagine the majority of hispanic voters voting for the GOP in the general election.

[QUOTE=ultra_bright;49804416]Okay first of all, islam isn't a race, its a religion and ideology so you can't call it racist but you can call it bigoted all you like. Second of all trump really fucking hates illegal immigrants and no matter what kind of stuff he thinks they do all he wants to accomplish is the total deportation of illegal immigrants which is what should happen in all cases. I think if you respect a country enough to want to move to it you should respect its laws and immigration process and not just think you're entitled to live in a foreign country.[/QUOTE] I don't see why its not fine to use the term racism. Its still a process of racializing an entire category of people with shared experiences. No one refers to Islam as just another religion anymore. The connotation is different. The first thought popping up into people's heads when they hear the word Muslim may as well be synonymous with Middle Eastern person.

[QUOTE=Firespray;49805223]I don't see why its not fine to use the term racism. Its still a process of racializing an entire category of people with shared experiences. No one refers to Islam as just a religion anymore, it has taken a huge shift beyond that.[/QUOTE] Sorry but what 'race' is Islam, then? Arabs? When the country with the largest Muslim population happens to be Indonesia? Or the millions in Iran, Pakistan, and the Turkic central Asia that constitute a large percentage of the Muslim world population?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49805232]Sorry but what 'race' is Islam, then? Arabs? When the country with the largest Muslim population happens to be Indonesia? Or the millions in Iran, Pakistan, and the Turkic central Asia that constitute a large percentage of the Muslim world population?[/QUOTE] Sorry, had to clarify that. I'm not referring to the fact that a Muslim person is of X race, but more along the lines that they are racialized in the same way. I'll talk about it more later in the day when I have time to write something proper up if you are interested.

[QUOTE=Firespray;49805223]I don't see why its not fine to use the term racism. Its still a process of racializing an entire category of people with shared experiences. No one refers to Islam as just another religion anymore. The connotation is different. The first thought popping up into people's heads when they hear the word Muslim may as well be synonymous with Middle Eastern person.[/QUOTE] last time i checked islam is a religious ideology. a pretty shit one imo.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/85JUdqY.png[/img] wow finished with more than second and third place combined.

Can somebody explain to me why there are only 75k votes?

[QUOTE=wystan;49804231] [B]Annexing them isn't an option unfortunately[/B].[/QUOTE] Wow. Jesus fuck, just wow.

[QUOTE=wystan;49805174]Trump isn't trying to blame illegals for everything, he is more into bashing "our leaders", which even I get tired of hearing, I think it is erroneous to say his campaign is built on immigration, it is certainly a pillar, but it is not the reason he implies it is no longer great. Looking at the stats of all the means illegals by it overstaying Visas include margins of something like 27-57%, which is too large to safely say they are the majority, the amount of that come from "Illegal Entry" and those are the ones I want gone the most. The ones that at least have visas took some effort, but they need to be responsible for not overstaying them. I think you over estimate the impact of deporting illegals and the hole it would leave, should push come to shove I'm faithful it is a situation the US can find a solution to. If we can add millions of legal immigrants to our population each year, I think our system to becoming a citizen is working as intended. I won the lottery of being born an American so I can't pretend to know the process, but if millions of people can do it reliably each year, it isn't as flawed as people make it out to be. Also the model citizens of America are the Asian immigrants, there is a reason they are called the Model Minority.[/QUOTE] On the topic of a flawed immigration system, a nice lady that I know has been in the country on a work visa for 12 years now while her citizenship paperwork is being continually denied and revised. She has managed to maintain her job and keep her visa up, but at the same time, she is not a citizen and has been waiting over a decade to be given legal paperwork (aside from the visa). She is my old english teacher from high school, originating from England. Now imagine this process for someone who comes here to work in a field during all hours of daylight, for less than minimum wage, with a family to support. The process takes money, and a lot of it. My teacher was just lucky enough to have a stable income and a husband to support her (he also is in the same boat as her). I agree that it should be difficult to get citizenship, but the process to do so should not be. The requirements to actually move through that process should be the filter.

[QUOTE=Killuah;49805297]Can somebody explain to me why there are only 75k votes?[/QUOTE] This was only the Republican vote, democrats had the vote last Saturday with ~12k. This is only a caucus as well so turnout is lower than state elections or presidential. However, in most states turnout for voting is generally around 30-45% of people who can vote, actually voting. [URL]http://www.electproject.org/2014g[/URL] Not to mention young voters historically have the worst turnouot ratios for voting. This is one reason I think Bernie may have it tough and might end up losing/cutting it very close the Super Tuesday primaries. [url]https://www.census.gov/prod/2014pubs/p20-573.pdf[/url]

I will admit, I'd take Trump over the GOP establishment. We know he's batshit insane, but he's the only one that doesn't seem totally evil. Manipulative, absolutely, but I'd imagine his idiocy is orchestrated. If you look at his record, he's actually fairly moderate. He's doesn't want to ban abortion, he wants to restructure the tax system to help the lower and middle class, fix H1-B visas (a serious problem in the tech industry), and fix the student loan and college finance system. Granted, he's also pushing for surveillance of mosques, and there's the wall I shouldn't have to mention, and like all Republicans he doesn't believe in climate change, but I'd say he's more tolerable than Cruz or Rubio at least. His campaign's been built on ridiculous statements, but he has held quite reasonable views in the past, and still does in certain areas. Still pushing for Sanders, though. I'm not a huge fan of the GOP's imposition of religious moral values through civil law, because it completely goes against what this country was built on.

[QUOTE=woolio1;49805367]his idiocy is orchestrated. [/QUOTE] Yes, yes it is, but not for a purpose advantageous for an average citizen. The advantages of having a lame duck moderate as the president comes with some SERIOUS repercussions. His currently proposed 'fixes' for the tax code and student loan/college financial system are not well thought out, either because his plan is stupid to begin with or because he kneecaps it for the target audience. He has no friends within congress, and would likely see worse gridlock than Obama or impeachment. Worst of all, he will probably be over reliant on his cabinet (who on earth knows who will be in cabinet) and will leverage his stature as president to further his business enterprises. The last thing the nation needs is a Cheney-esque brick voted in by reactionary rants from a salesman or the assumptions from disillusioned voters on his course of action in office.