• Markets fall after Obama victory
    46 replies, posted
I've never understood why taxing the rich more is a good thing. I've always considered it as an excuse for middle class/poor people as to why THEY aren't rich. If someone wants to educate me on the matter, I'd appreciate it. Also, have a quote from Thomas Jefferson. "To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association--'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.'"
[QUOTE=Skarr;38360873]I've never understood why taxing the rich more is a good thing. I've always considered it as an excuse for middle class/poor people as to why THEY aren't rich. If someone wants to educate me on the matter, I'd appreciate it. Also, have a quote from Thomas Jefferson. "To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association--'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.'"[/QUOTE] TJ was a libertarian/classical liberal who lived in a very open/free nation with plenty of opportunity (at the time...for whites) and who was revolting against an oppressive king. Big business did not exist aside from government-sponsored ventures like the East India Company. I think he'd be more than a little biased against anything remotely socialist/authoritarian. Also that quotes ignores the fact that the "fruits acquired" by industry is due to the work of employees working for them, customers buying things from them, other businesses providing goods, and the government providing infrastructure to let them work. Being rich is a matter of luck and a little skill (aided by good education...something most poor people sadly lack). Even businessmen will acknowledge that almost every decision they make is a risk based on luck and analysis (if my business-IT textbook is to be believed). In a big-corporation-dominated society, it's hard to get even a foothold in business, which is the main way to make big bucks (aside from being a celebrity...which takes amazing luck and connections). Poor people work hard and accept their pittance because they can't really do anything else - they have no money or influence to start a business, no money to invest. The only hope is to rely on the government, venture capitalists, or a fluke (like inventing something brand new...not likely to happen to many people). Or the support of their community (helping local businesses out). Alternatively you could stop asking an internet forum and ask one of the thousands of sociologists and economists who study the very same issue.
[QUOTE=Skarr;38360873]I've never understood why taxing the rich more is a good thing. I've always considered it as an excuse for middle class/poor people as to why THEY aren't rich. If someone wants to educate me on the matter, I'd appreciate it. Also, have a quote from Thomas Jefferson. "To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association--'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.'"[/QUOTE] How do I socioeconomic thought of the past 60 years from every country ever
[QUOTE=rinoaff33;38360952]TJ was a libertarian who was revolting against an oppressive king. I think he'd be more than a little biased against anything remotely socialist/authoritarian. Also that quotes ignores the fact that the "fruits acquired" by industry is due to the work of employees working for them, customers buying things from them, other businesses providing goods, and the government providing infrastructure to let them work. Being rich is a matter of luck and a little skill (aided by good education...something most poor people sadly lack), and in a big-corporation-dominated society, it's hard to get even a foothold in business, which is the main way to make big bucks (aside from being a celebrity...which takes amazing luck and connections). Poor people work hard and accept their pittance because they can't really do anything else - they have no money or influence to start a business, no money to invest. The only hope is to rely on the government, venture capitalists, or a fluke (like inventing something brand new...not likely to happen to many people). Alternatively you could stop asking an internet forum and ask one of the thousands of sociologists and economists who study the very same issue.[/QUOTE] I don't know anyone who studies the issue. I live in rural Tennessee. I know farmers and people who work at McDonalds. That's about it. And I'm too damn awkward to find someone and e-mail them, and I'd feel even more stupid than I do now trying to ask someone educated thoroughly on the subject. I just don't understand why someone should have to give up more of what he has earned simply because he was more successful than another. WHY is that okay? Edit: I googled it and am now reading things. I may be ignorant but at least I'm putting forth an effort?
[QUOTE=QuikKill;38360051]Even if you pooled all the taxes that are imposed on the rich, we would still be in debt. We need a combination of reduced spending, and reasonable taxation. When people impose these huge tax rates on the rich, they either take their money elsewhere or hide it.[/QUOTE] Cutting social services that help the people in the economy is not going to help the economy grow, it will not help reduce the debt, not in a long term or meaningful way. The debt isn't as big of a deal as setting the country up to succeed just down the road, and imposing the cost of living in an inflated and dysfunctional system on people who already economically hurt will NOT help.
Obama came into office with the DOW just below 7k points back in Jan 2009, and fell below 9k 3 months prior in Oct 2008. I don't think 12,907 is really something to scream and cry about; It's not like he can't fix any (potential) incoming problems. Sources on the 2008 crash: [url]http://www.money-zine.com/Investing/Stocks/Stock-Market-Crash-of-2008/[/url] [url]http://www.factcheck.org/2011/11/super-pac-polishes-huntsmans-resume/[/url]
[QUOTE=Cheat_God;38361131]Obama came into office with the DOW just below 7k points back in Jan 2009, and fell below 9k 3 months prior in Oct 2008. I don't think 12,907 is really something to scream and cry about; It's not like he can't fix any (potential) incoming problems. Sources on the 2008 crash: [url]http://www.money-zine.com/Investing/Stocks/Stock-Market-Crash-of-2008/[/url] [url]http://www.factcheck.org/2011/11/super-pac-polishes-huntsmans-resume/[/url][/QUOTE] But it doesn't matter cause any fluctuations are obviously his fault according to the media.
[QUOTE=QuikKill;38360451]You aren't personally, but a lot of people believe that we can solve the debt crisis by taxing the hell out of the rich. Go read through the election megathread and other similar threads. But where is that going to stop? Like France did? 40% is a lot of money, and it's hard to justify taking $160,000 of a mans $400,000, let alone 75%. As much as I would love to believe that chart, can I see some sources on it? And do you have a similar chart for small businesses?[/QUOTE] And there are people on the other side of the fence that believe obama is literally a foreigner. There's widespread idiocy all around. 40% is a lot, but even historically for the states, it isn't that bad. Obama and Romney both would have had to tax people heavier than before. The low tax rates hurt the country, and helped push an income gap ever further apart.
[QUOTE=Skarr;38361053]Edit: I googled it and am now reading things. I may be ignorant but at least I'm putting forth an effort?[/QUOTE] Ignorance is not an excuse. Before doing something important like voting (or hell, even forming political opinions), you need to sit down and think objectively about things. For instance [quote]I've always considered it as an excuse for middle class/poor people as to why THEY aren't rich.[/quote] It doesn't take a theoretical physicist to realize that it is economically impossible for everybody to be rich, so your point is entirely moot. That "excuse" is simply those people being mathematically doomed to being poor or middle class. If one of those people were to become rich, then somebody else in the country (or a large group of people) would need to find themselves poorer in order for that person to maintain their new-found wealth. For example, if everybody in the lower class magically found themselves filthy rich, the rich/middle class people would suddenly become poor because the wealth curve would need to re-adjust. It's not possible for everybody to be rich. With that in mind, wealth is an economic commodity, not a possession. If 10% of people are hoarding 90% of that crucial commodity, then it needs to get re-distributed in social services or infrastructure, otherwise the economic system won't work.
[QUOTE=Creid;38359732][citation needed][/QUOTE] GEE, SOMEONE WHO MAKES $20 MIL A YEAR IS DODGING TAX VIA LOOPHOLES. THAT TOTALLY WOULDN'T HELP AMERICA'S DIRE FINANCIAL STATE AT ALL! NOPE! NOPE! THAT TAX MONEY WOULD JUST BE LIKE A SILENT, ODORLESS FART IN A WIND TUNNEL! is your brain made of tagiatelli or something
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;38361359]Ignorance is not an excuse. Before doing something important like voting (or hell, even forming political opinions), you need to sit down and think objectively about things. For instance It doesn't take a theoretical physicist to realize that it is economically impossible for everybody to be rich, so your point is entirely moot. That "excuse" is simply those people being mathematically doomed to being poor or middle class. If one of those people were to become rich, then somebody else in the country (or a large group of people) would need to find themselves poorer in order for that person to maintain their new-found wealth. For example, if everybody in the lower class magically found themselves filthy rich, the rich/middle class people would suddenly become poor because the wealth curve would need to re-adjust. It's not possible for everybody to be rich. With that in mind, wealth is an economic commodity, not a possession. If 10% of people are hoarding 90% of that crucial commodity, then it needs to get re-distributed in social services or infrastructure, otherwise the economic system won't work.[/QUOTE] I'm not using ignorance as an excuse; I'm using it to ask questions and seek answers. I was simply admitting my ignorance. But thank you for replying seriously. I'm young and trying to find out where I stand. I was put in the basic Government/Economics class because my schedule was already booked and I didn't have room for AP, so I literally learned nothing and I'm entirely unsure where to turn for the knowledge.
[QUOTE=Skarr;38362525]I'm not using ignorance as an excuse; I'm using it to ask questions and seek answers. I was simply admitting my ignorance. But thank you for replying seriously. I'm young and trying to find out where I stand. I was put in the basic Government/Economics class because my schedule was already booked and I didn't have room for AP, so I literally learned nothing and I'm entirely unsure where to turn for the knowledge.[/QUOTE] Wikipedia is a good start. As are the official party platforms. And respectable news sources like Washington Post and New York Times. And especially BBC even though it's not US-based, because IIRC it's illegal for BBC to be obviously biased due to their contract (they're sponsored by government). Even Al Jazeera - although expect some anti-"imperial" spin - for an outside perspective.
proof barack HUSSEIN osama is destroying the economony
[QUOTE=Creid;38359732][citation needed][/QUOTE] Used the church loophole to avoid taxes. [url]http://newsone.com/2074186/mitt-romney-tax-evasion/[/url] [url]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations.html[/url] [url]http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-29/romney-avoids-taxes-via-loophole-cutting-mormon-donations[/url]
are any of these people complaining about tax increases actually aware of whether or not the tax increase with affect them legitimately? or are you guys just hearing "tax increase" and saying "oh no, i might not be able to pay my rent!"
Is this really just because of capital gains?
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.