Vegans and Vegetarians butthurt over £5 note containing trace elements of tallow. - Polidicks

[quote] There's no single interpretation of veganism. Maybe I'm thinking about [I]your[/I] veganism wrong, but as of yet I'm more convinced that your views, motivations, and actions are inconsistent. [/quote] Veganism is a dietary choice made for ethical reasons. There's really no other interpretation beyond that. You don't need to be an activist to be a vegan, and you don't need to be a vegan to be an activist. [quote] You do choose to eat farmed plants though, and those farms do have problems with runoff, and that runoff is causing problems in the oceans as well as rivers, lakes, and streams. The same can be argued if you poop. [/quote] The alternative is suicide [quote] Which animals and why though? How distant does your action have to be for you to feel personally absolved of killing an animal?[/quote] All living being with animal cells. [quote] Are you not familiar with the Gulf of Mexico deadzone? You're contributing to that every time you eat food grown in the US.[/quote] I don't care that I am [quote]I didn't cause factory farming of animals. Should I absolve myself of all of their ills because I'm not the one doing the farming and killing?[/quote] I don't care what you do.

[QUOTE=Aztec;51454179]Veganism is a dietary choice made for ethical reasons. There's really no other interpretation beyond that. You don't need to be an activist to be a vegan, and you don't need to be a vegan to be an activist.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but I've been asking you what your ethical reasons [I]are[/I], and you haven't answered that in the slightest. [QUOTE] The alternative is suicide [/QUOTE] OR, eating aquacultured mussels, because they combat this [QUOTE] All living being with animal cells. [/QUOTE] Animal cells are kind of hard to define. Slime molds might fall into that category. What we define as animal cells is arbitrary in a lot of ways. [QUOTE] I don't care that I am [/QUOTE] Then I don't think you're acting ethically. [QUOTE]I don't care what you do.[/QUOTE] You seemed to imply that you did earlier when you speculated that I didn't need my current protein intake :V

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51454213]Yeah, but I've been asking you what your ethical reasons [I]are[/I], and you haven't answered that in the slightest.[/QUOTE] My reasons is I personally don't want to kill animals. [quote] OR, eating aquacultured mussels, because they combat this[/quote] I don't want to kill animals [quote] Animal cells are kind of hard to define. Slime molds might fall into that category. What we define as animal cells is arbitrary in a lot of ways. [/quote] Any Eukaryote within Animalia. [quote]Then I don't think you're acting ethically.[/quote] I respect that you think that. [quote] You seemed to imply that you did earlier when you speculated that I didn't need my current protein intake :V[/quote] My original comment referring to beans and rice was supposed to be about how staple foods are always going to be cheaper than meat products not that everyone can eat them for every dietary reason.

[QUOTE=BloodFox1222;51453425]No. The environment is a very important issue, but I stopped eating meat because I wanted to minimize harm done to animals, and that wouldn't change if the environment was not a factor.[/QUOTE] On the contrary, if everyone suddenly stopped using animal products there would be no need for those animals in the first place, so people would stop breeding said animals so the only animals you would find are in the wild. Over the course of about 100 years all "domesticated" animals cows, sheep etc would die out. I saw quite an interesting documentary about it once, it was aboutif all humans suddenly vanished I think.

[QUOTE=Redcoat893;51454275]On the contrary, if everyone suddenly stopped using animal products there would be no need for those animals in the first place, so people would stop breeding said animals so the only animals you would find are in the wild. Over the course of about 100 years all "domesticated" animals cows, sheep etc would die out. I saw quite an interesting documentary about it once, it was aboutif all humans suddenly vanished I think.[/QUOTE] I doubt cows slowly disappearing from existence would be an ethical dilemma for any vegan.

[QUOTE=Aztec;51454228]My reasons is I personally don't want to kill animals.[/QUOTE] That's a want or desire, not an ethical reason. They're related concepts, but not equivalent. You not wanting to kill animals [I]because[/I] killing animals makes you sad would be a reason. [QUOTE] Any Eukaryote within Animalia. [/QUOTE] Just know that those classifications are human constructs that are fairly arbitrary. Life doesn't seem to care at all about our neat little dividing lines. [QUOTE] My original comment referring to beans and rice was supposed to be about how staple foods are always going to be cheaper than meat products not that everyone can eat them for every dietary reason.[/QUOTE] It isn't [I]always[/I] the case though, and simply being cheap doesn't mean that it's useful.

[QUOTE=gokiyono;51451579]Why do you think it matters to state that though? You aren't doing much other than stigmatizing a practice that has managed to increase populations[/QUOTE] You misunderstand, he's sitgmatizing the "killing the animals" part, not the part where they're bred. The population doesn't increase because of the killing. It's more indirect than so.

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51454300]That's a want or desire, not an ethical reason. They're related concepts, but not equivalent. You not wanting to kill animals [I]because[/I] killing animals makes you sad would be a reason. [/QUOTE] My ethical reason is I personally don't want to kill animals [quote] Just know that those classifications are human constructs that are fairly arbitrary. Life doesn't seem to care at all about our neat little dividing lines.[/quote] Sure [quote] It isn't [I]always[/I] the case though, and simply being cheap doesn't mean that it's useful.[/quote] Being a staple food implies usefulness.

[QUOTE=paul simon;51454307]You misunderstand, he's sitgmatizing the "killing the animals" part, not the part where they're bred. The population doesn't increase because of the killing. It's more indirect than so.[/QUOTE] I haven't said that the population increased by killing. I've presented a system that has currently working, and is the best there currently is. By going, "yeah, but they're still killing" you pretty much are stigmatizing that system

I wonder if veggies and vegans would get pissed off if you ask them "You wanna put your money where your mouth is?" as well.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51446814]Acting like being a vegan makes him better than you, being a condescending twat, insults...ooh, spot-the-vegan bingo![/QUOTE] Vegans exist in another reality where products come from thin air, and they are mocked because they are so unbelievably mockable for their non-grounded beliefs. They choose to focus on something with very little impact that is reversible instead of focusing on non-reversible, much larger problems that affect millions of [I]human beings[/I], the [I]indisputable[/I] most important life form.

Honestly I'm a vegetarian and I couldn't give a shit about this. Vegetarianism shouldn't be anything more than a dietary choice, mostly [b]everything[/b] you come into contact with has had some kind of animal slaughter or testing of some kind at some point in its process. It's kind of inevitable. The only bit we have control over is what we eat.

[QUOTE=Disseminate;51453964]Wasting animal materials is not more ethically sound but the requirement of tarrow only adds to the demand. While it's a solid argument that "if the animal is dead, it's best not to waste any bit of it", but this is given that the cow is dead already and - guess what - vegans are against the raising/killing of the animal, not the use of the materials from a dead animal.[/QUOTE] So you literally believe that the use of animal tallow in £5 bills increases demand? You really don't understand how supply and demand works? The supply is already there from cows that were already killed for their meat, it's only a matter of extracting it. The demand for tallow is tiny compared to what is available. Killing extra cows for the sole purpose of extracting tallow from them would cost a lot more money than extracting it from cows that are already being slaughtered in the first place, so no company in the world would do such a ridiculous thing. Producing £5 bills with trace amounts of tallow in them is responsible for a grand total of 0 cow death and it will continue to be unless somehow supply gets so scarce and demand gets so high that breeding and killing cows solely for their tallow becomes profitable. [QUOTE]We don't prosecute the mentally ill though. An insanity plea is not an admission of guilt by any stretch of the imagination. Them being committed is not the same as them being killed and eaten. In addition, wild cows are not murderous and pose no harm to people - but even if they did, it's not like we can fault them. They're insane, from a human perspective. Once again, the reason for veganism is to imbue agency on those that cannot speak. The moral principle being ascribed to, by vegans, is to avoid causing pain. Here are some creatures that cannot ascribe to "moral duty" immediately: - Infants - People currently asleep - People in vegetative states or comas - People with developmental disorders (ie. Down's syndrome) - People with highly affective mental disorders (ie. schizoid disorders, memory disorders) But we still grant them moral decency. If they were to murder in their current state we don't charge them. This is because as humans we sympathize with receiving pain. All that veganism does is extend sympathy to all things that feel pain.[/QUOTE] Alright, so you didn't even read what I said in that paragraph. Not only did I mention the mentally ill because I knew you'd bring up the topic of intelligence, but I also said that they don't get prosecuted already. Here's the catch, though: We don't shrug off crimes committed by the mentally ill. We don't cast [I]punitive[/I] measures on them, however we still enact [I]preventive[/I] measures. If a mentally ill person is in the middle of a shooting spree, doesn't have the mental capacity to surrender peacefully, and is an active threat to innocent people, the police fucking shoots him. If the police manages to non-lethally subdue him, the justice system will commit him to an institution where he won't be able to do any more harm. If you want to hold animals to the same moral and empathetic standard as humans, this needs to be enforced on them too. Hence the necessity to isolate predators from their prey. [QUOTE]It's not preservation that vegans want, it's a lack of pain. I truly believe that if cows could speak, they would want death in their current state. It's the exact same argument as euthanasia in that their death would be more pleasant than countless generations' deaths after them. I also believe that fetuses with horrible genetic abnormalities should be aborted, for their own sake, and this is in line with that. In a human-centric mindset, let's say you know of a person who would 100% definitely be abused by their parents and their parents would force them to have children and 100% abuse those children to the point of their death (but not before they had children ad infinitum). Assuming I can't alter the parent or arrest them etc., I condone killing that child, in the same way I condone killing factory farmed animals. It's a form of euthanasia. Euthanasia is not torture - the animals' existence is torture to them. By endorsing the products of factory farms, you are increasing demand, whether it's visible to you or not.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]It's a very interesting argument. I err on the side of caution when it comes to near-mindless creatures that do have a nervous system (mussels, oysters, scallops, jellyfish, worms, etc). For example, because we can split a worm in two and have both parts be separately sentient - is it a robot or an animal? Does it actually feel pain? Does it understand the signals its getting when it gets cut in half? Until it's clearly defined I won't eat them. If it gets clearly defined that they don't feel pain, of course I'd eat them![/QUOTE] Alright, so I gather from this that pain is the only factor you care for. Some humans and animals are born with congenital insensitivity to pain, rendering them unable to feel any kind of pain. Generalizing that trait to farm animals would only be a question of artificially selecting them. All things otherwise equal, I gather from your rhetoric that you would be fine with these animals being bred and killed for their meat?

[QUOTE=Aztec;51454320]My ethical reason is I personally don't want to kill animals[/QUOTE] You're talking in circles then. You have no ethical reason, you're just pretending to. You're a vegan And you're a vegan because you don't personally want to kill animals Because [] [QUOTE]Sure[/QUOTE] Your current definition doesn't leave human sperm kosher. They're animal cells, they're eukaryotes, and of kingdom Animalia/Metazoa. Your current system also excludes lab meat, which you previously said you'd be cool with [QUOTE=Aztec;51449229] I am a vegan for ethical reasons and wouldn't have any problem eating meat that was grown from lab grown tissue.[/QUOTE] You also went on about sustainability and other factors, so I'm pretty sure you know you're just being completely arbitrary about this. If you forgot that you said those things, maybe you need some B12. 100% for real I hope you are supplementing that well enough. Most people try to use yeast, but not all yeast produces B12 in useful quantities, and improper storage makes things worse. [QUOTE]Being a staple food implies usefulness.[/QUOTE] For some purposes yes, but it's the [I]always[/I] I take issue with. Your criteria were cost and shelf-life. My criteria usually consists of cost and nutritional breakdown.

[QUOTE=phygon;51455218]Vegans exist in another reality where products come from thin air, and they are mocked because they are so unbelievably mockable for their non-grounded beliefs. They choose to focus on something with very little impact that is reversible instead of focusing on non-reversible, much larger problems that affect millions of [I]human beings[/I], [b]the [I]indisputable[/I] most important life form.[/b][/QUOTE] To be honest, that sounds really fucking arbitrary. If you're just going by their contributions as a whole, don't forgot that they also did a lot to fuck up this planet. Not saying that people shouldn't be helped, of course, but I'm just saying that the belief that humans are objectively the most important living beings sounds kinda self-centered and silly.

[QUOTE=Skerion;51455966]To be honest, that sounds really fucking arbitrary. If you're just going by their contributions as a whole, don't forgot that they also did a lot to fuck up this planet. Not saying that people shouldn't be helped, of course, but I'm just saying that the belief that humans are objectively the most important living beings sounds kinda self-centered and silly.[/QUOTE] The idea of importance itself is exclusive to humans since it implies contribution to a goal. Nature itself has no goal. So the notion of importance isn't objective anyway.

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51455646]You're talking in circles then. You have no ethical reason, you're just pretending to. You're a vegan And you're a vegan because you don't personally want to kill animals Because [] [/QUOTE] my ethical reason is I'm a vegan because I don't want to kill animals [quote] Your current definition doesn't leave human sperm kosher. They're animal cells, they're eukaryotes, and of kingdom Animalia/Metazoa. Your current system also excludes lab meat, which you previously said you'd be cool with[/quote] This is nonesense conjecture lol [quote] You also went on about sustainability and other factors, so I'm pretty sure you know you're just being completely arbitrary about this. If you forgot that you said those things, maybe you need some B12. 100% for real I hope you are supplementing that well enough. Most people try to use yeast, but not all yeast produces B12 in useful quantities, and improper storage makes things worse.[/quote] I take a multivitamin. The same multivitamin i took before I was a vegan. [quote] For some purposes yes, but it's the [I]always[/I] I take issue with. Your criteria were cost and shelf-life. My criteria usually consists of cost and nutritional breakdown.[/quote] Staple foods by definition are high in calories, are cheap, and have a long shelf life. Otherwise they wouldn't be staple foods.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51456029]The idea of importance itself is exclusive to humans since it implies contribution to a goal. Nature itself has no goal. So the notion of importance isn't objective anyway.[/QUOTE] Exactly. It's not like the planet (let alone the universe) should give a shit about what a portion of a species thinks about who's the most important, especially when they have only conquered less than 1% of the universe, and also considering that there's probably other beings on other worlds that think differently on that. Hell, we've already got a shit ton of people of our own species that have entirely different mindsets from each other. Although to be fair, I'd imagine that at least some of the other animals have the goal to survive. For bees, it seems like its to pollinate the flowers.

[QUOTE=Aztec;51456227]my ethical reason is I'm a vegan because I don't want to kill animals[/QUOTE] You're shitposting right? [QUOTE]This is nonesense conjecture lol[/QUOTE] No, your definitions of things simply don't match up with the stances you've taken. What makes lab meat different from an animal as you've defined it? What makes sperm different? You can pretend you're making ethical choices all you want, but ethics [I]specifically[/I] deals with [I]why[/I] things are right or wrong under a moral framework. [QUOTE] I take a multivitamin. The same multivitamin i took before I was a vegan.[/QUOTE] That doesn't even remotely mean your needs are being met because you've [I]changed[/I] your dietary needs by becoming a vegan [QUOTE] Staple foods by definition are high in calories, are cheap, and have a long shelf life. Otherwise they wouldn't be staple foods.[/QUOTE] Our interactions with food continue to change. What used to be cheap and easy preserve might not stand up to other foodstuffs now that we have better methods of preservation and production. Mussels used to be a staple food before we ruined our waterways.

[QUOTE=J!NX;51448930]Don't all bills have trace amounts of cocaine? maybe we should bitch about that too just think of all the people being subjected to all of that cocaine![/QUOTE] I wonder if there are any vegan cocaine users?

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51456372]You're shitposting right? [/QUOTE] Just because you don't understand ethics doesn't mean I should have to change my completely legitimate reason why I am a vegan. [quote] No, your definitions of things simply don't match up with the stances you've taken. What makes lab meat different from an animal as you've defined it? What makes sperm different? [/quote] I don't want to kill animals. Lab meat is synthesized from an animal but it was never part of an animal. (I don't want to kill animals) As for sperm, my cheek cells are in my mouth and constantly fall off into my stomach. I guess I'm not vegan ( Also I don't eat sperm, did you really come up with that as a serious argument lol?) [quote] You can pretend you're making ethical choices all you want, but ethics [I]specifically[/I] deals with [I]why[/I] things are right or wrong under a moral framework.[/quote] is this a sentence? [quote] That doesn't even remotely mean your needs are being met because you've [I]changed[/I] your dietary needs by becoming a vegan [/quote] I can assure you that my daily b12 intake is being met [quote] Our interactions with food continue to change. What used to be cheap and easy preserve might not stand up to other foodstuffs now that we have better methods of preservation and production.[/quote] Anything that is currently called a staple food is a staple food

[QUOTE=Aztec;51456991]Just because you don't understand ethics doesn't mean I should have to change my completely legitimate reason why I am a vegan.[/QUOTE] It's pretty clear you don't understand the word, or what it implies. [QUOTE] I don't want to kill animals. Lab meat is synthesized from an animal but it was never part of an animal. (I don't want to kill animals)[/QUOTE] Lab meat progenitor tissue came from an animal. It was once part of an animal. You can pretend otherwise, but you'd be wrong. We haven't developed completely new tissues that were never part of any animal ever yet, and probably won't pursue that route. If you only care about [I]killing[/I] animals unfertilized chicken eggs wouldn't be a problem. Neither would dairy. [QUOTE] As for sperm, my cheek cells are in my mouth and constantly fall off into my stomach. I guess I'm not vegan ( Also I don't eat sperm, did you really come up with that as a serious argument lol?) [/QUOTE] Using your definitions you wouldn't be. You're right, I think your definitions are stupid too. [QUOTE] is this a sentence? [/QUOTE] Do you not understand the branch of philosophy known as ethics? From your posts that's the only conclusion I can come to. [QUOTE] I can assure you that my daily b12 intake is being met [/QUOTE] Just know that memory issues are some of the first signs that they aren't

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51457106]It's pretty clear you don't understand the word, or what it implies. [/quote] ok [quote] Lab meat progenitor tissue came from an animal. It was once part of an animal. You can pretend otherwise, but you'd be wrong. We haven't developed completely new tissues that were never part of any animal ever yet, and probably won't pursue that route.[/quote] I never said I would eat that form of lab grown meat [quote] If you only care about [I]killing[/I] animals unfertilized chicken eggs wouldn't be a problem. Neither would dairy. [/quote] yeah it would [quote] Using your definitions you wouldn't be. You're right, I think your definitions are stupid too. [/quote] I'm glad that you think that [quote] Do you not understand the branch of philosophy known as ethics? From your posts that's the only conclusion I can come to.[/quote] I actually do but I don't understand your posts because it's clear that you don't so it is sometimes hard to form a sentence in response. [quote] Just know that memory issues are some of the first signs that they aren't[/QUOTE] thanks

[QUOTE=Aztec;51457364] yeah it would [/QUOTE] Eating unfertilized chicken eggs does not necessitate the killing of chickens, unless you view that chicken egg as a distinct animal. Milk is even more of a stretch. You don't have to kill a cow or goat to milk it. If you refuse to eat ANY eggs or ANY dairy products under ANY circumstances with the reason "I personally don't want to kill animals" then you are acting irrationally. That's all there is to it.

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51457488]Eating unfertilized chicken eggs does not necessitate the killing of chickens, unless you view that chicken egg as a distinct animal. Milk is even more of a stretch. You don't have to kill a cow or goat to milk it. If you refuse to eat ANY eggs or ANY dairy products under ANY circumstances with the reason "I personally don't want to kill animals" then you are acting irrationally. That's all there is to it.[/QUOTE] Contributing to the egg and dairy industry causes a lot of deaths to both animals. and a lot of shitty lives for them too.

[QUOTE=Aztec;51457553]Contributing to the egg and dairy industry causes a lot of deaths to both animals. and a lot of shitty lives for them too.[/QUOTE] Eating eggs produced by your neighbor's chickens does not require or contribute to the death of animals necessarily. The quality of life of an animal goes beyond the scope of your reason of "I personally don't want to kill animals" as well.

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51457577]Eating eggs produced by your neighbor's chickens does not require or contribute to the death of animals necessarily.[/QUOTE] That's fine except a lot of people buy chickens from chicken suppliers where they came from farms of unknown origins with many having shaved beaks. and those same chicken suppliers cull male chickens at a very large ratio to female chickens. [quote] The quality of life of an animal goes beyond the scope of your reason of "I personally don't want to kill animals" as well.[/quote] no it doesn't

[QUOTE=Aztec;51457588]That's fine except most people buy chickens from chicken suppliers where they came from farms of unknown origins with many having shaved beaks.[/QUOTE] Shaved beaks goes beyond the scope of killing [QUOTE]and those same chicken suppliers cull male chickens at a very large ratio to female chickens.[/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that it's impossible for someone to have raised their chickens in a manner that avoids these issues? What about rescue chickens? [QUOTE]no it doesn't[/QUOTE] Yes it does. If you have more values beyond "I personally don't want to kill animals" that explain this, feel free to share them. I've asked politely for a while. I've asked less politely as of recent.

[QUOTE=1legmidget;51457612]Shaved beaks goes beyond the scope of killing [/quote] no it doesn't [quote] Are you suggesting that it's impossible for someone to have raised their chickens in a manner that avoids these issues? What about rescue chickens? [/quote] It might be possible but I don't have the ability to get 100% ethical eggs with 100% knowledge that they are 100% ethical [quote] Yes it does. If you have more values beyond "I personally don't want to kill animals" that explain this, feel free to share them. I've asked politely for a while. I've asked less politely as of recent.[/quote] no it doesn't

[QUOTE=Aztec;51457622] no it doesn't [/QUOTE] Next you'll tell me that cutting hair or nails is also killing an animal. [QUOTE]It might be possible but I don't have the ability to get 100% ethical eggs with 100% knowledge that they are 100% ethical[/QUOTE] That's true of even plants though. Plant harvesting kills animals. Loads of insects end up in combines. The same is true for rodents. There's obviously some threshold that isn't 100% "ethical" that you're ok with. [QUOTE]no it doesn't[/QUOTE] You're either incapable of reasoning or trolling then. Take your pick.