Men deported from Saudi Arabia for being 'too handsome' - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40311298]lol sure India is a clusterfuck of fucked[/QUOTE] here we go again

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40311298]lol sure India is a clusterfuck of fucked[/QUOTE] Nice to see some backing to that claim

[QUOTE=archangel125;40310850]The heart of Islam, Saudi Arabia, doesn't practice true Islam, and that is sad.[/QUOTE] The fundamentals of Christianity and Islam are of peace and equality. That is why Islamic and Christian fundamentalists advocate peace and equality. :v:

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40311444]The fundamentals of Christianity and Islam are of peace and equality. That is why Islamic and Christian fundamentalists advocate peace and equality. :v:[/QUOTE] I don't know whether to believe that humans are inherently good or inherently assholes, but I know enough to know that a few assholes fuck everything up and they're the reasons we can't have nice things. And these assholes are the ones who imagine themselves as noble warriors against hordes of evil enemies, and when they find there are no enemies, they create some.

I recall seeing a link to some site of photographs of a certain location in India where people bathe, swam, and ditched their dead all in the same day. It had a bunch of shots of corpses of people and animals floating and lying about as people whent about theirthe business. Not sure about the rest of India, but that bit sounds kinda fucked up.

[QUOTE=Sgt. Khorn;40311457]I recall seeing a link to some site of photographs of a certain location in India where people bathe, swam, and ditched their dead all in the same day. It had a bunch of shots of corpses of people and animals floating and lying about as people whent about theirthe business. Not sure about the rest of India, but that bit sounds kinda fucked up.[/QUOTE] The river Ganges has massive cultural and religious significance to the religious Hindu demographic, and if you read the stories about it they're beautiful. Sadly, despite its sacred status, the practice of both bathing and burials in the ganges doesn't equal sanitary conditions. The government's trying to educate some of the poorer people to that effect. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] But let's not derail this thread, it's about SA, not India.

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[QUOTE=mchapra;40311378]Nice to see some backing to that claim[/QUOTE] rank 93 out of 134 on the human development index

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40311503]rank 93 out of 134 on the human development index[/QUOTE] [img]http://i.imgur.com/rML6F90.png[/img] Look at that rate of change. Look at how the latest data available is from 2005, about seven years ago. I think your info's a little outdated, and I wouldn't call that trend a [B]"clusterfuck of fucked"[/B] as you so eloquently enunciated. This is the last I'll say on India in this thread, and we'd thank you not to derail it further. You're free to continue this discussion with me in PMs, if you like.

India is fucked in different ways than Saudi Arabia is fucked, and the excuse "I lived there so I can hate on it" isn't really that great of a pillar to start an argument on.

-snip-

[QUOTE=archangel125;40311452]I don't know whether to believe that humans are inherently good or inherently assholes, but I know enough to know that a few assholes fuck everything up and they're the reasons we can't have nice things. And these assholes are the ones who imagine themselves as noble warriors against hordes of evil enemies, and when they find there are no enemies, they create some.[/QUOTE] i personally think people are inherently good. i believe forms of rigid hierarchy and leadership are what creates these monstrous situations. i think being accountable to a group of people is actually a fairly moderating force among humans, the problem is when humans, organizations, or structures become unaccountable or become accountable to an elite group. religion is a beautiful illustration of this because holy men become accountable to religious councils, people become accountable to deities instead of their brothers and sisters, and it is all wrapped up in a convenient package of supposed absolute truth. a zealot doesn't have to worry about the suffering he causes on earth, because she isn't accountable to those people, only god; and god will reward him for her acts of violence.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40311625]i personally think people are inherently good. i believe forms of rigid hierarchy and leadership are what creates these monstrous situations. i think being accountable to a group of people is actually a fairly moderating force among humans, the problem is when humans, organizations, or structures become unaccountable or become accountable to an elite group. [/QUOTE] Humans as a rule of thumb, tend to be more violent and worse in pre-agricultural societies, and often violent in agricultural ones as well. Industrializing ones pretty much coincide with a massive decline in violence too. Inherently, humans, stripped of cultural influences, trend towards high rates of violence.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40311625]i personally think people are inherently good. i believe forms of rigid hierarchy and leadership are what creates these monstrous situations. [/QUOTE] These systems are created by people and made up of people. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311690] Inherently, humans, stripped of cultural influences, trend towards high rates of violence.[/QUOTE] Saudi Arabia didn't progress through an Industrial age or enlightenment. Oil, Boom, Rich King backed by powerful religion.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311690]Humans as a rule of thumb, tend to be more violent and worse in pre-agricultural societies, and often violent in agricultural ones as well. Industrializing ones pretty much coincide with a massive decline in violence too. Inherently, humans, stripped of cultural influences, trend towards high rates of violence.[/QUOTE] that is off topic but ok [QUOTE=Rangergxi;40311691]These systems are created by people and made up of people.[/QUOTE] that doesn't mean they are always a direct reflection of human nature. would you say the nazi party is human nature, then at the same time assert that the american green party is also human nature when both ideas contradict pretty heavily? humans are social creatures, when we are put into societies that encourage or otherwise disconnect people from suffering, then we will tend towards behavior that reflects it.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40311691]These systems are created by people and made up of people. [editline]17th April 2013[/editline] Saudi Arabia didn't progress through an Industrial age or enlightenment. Oil, Boom, Rich King backed by powerful religion.[/QUOTE] A lot of the decline in violence is attributed largely due to the arrival of the modern state, organized police forces, rule of law, standing armies, economic development and opening of borders to the movement of goods and people.

Don't go to India. Everyone gets the trots. [img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/30/article-2080152-0F4C2E8700000578-989_634x395.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311728]A lot of the decline in violence is attributed largely due to the arrival of the modern state, organized police forces, rule of law, standing armies, economic development and opening of borders to the movement of goods and people.[/QUOTE] i would say the modern state, organized police forces, and "rule of law" are perpetuations of violence either way. i don't disagree with opening of borders or free flow of people and goods.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311728]A lot of the decline in violence is attributed largely due to the arrival of the modern state, organized police forces, rule of law, standing armies, economic development and opening of borders to the movement of goods and people.[/QUOTE] Saudi Arabia has a high HDI, but it's still backwards and violent, and the rich there are still - Quite literally - above the law.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40311758]i would say the modern state, organized police forces, and "rule of law" are perpetuations of violence either way.[/QUOTE] They reduce and control violence. So far it's working.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311766]They reduce and control violence. So far it's working.[/QUOTE] no because in a state each and every person has violent force exercised on them whenever they do anything. the state has monopolized violence and increased it exponentially.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40311780]no because in a state each and every person has violent force exercised on them whenever they do anything. the state has monopolized violence and increased it exponentially.[/QUOTE] Except violent crime rates, rape, warfare, murder, etc is in terminal decline. Who gives a shit?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311799]Except violent crime rates, rape, warfare, murder, etc is in terminal decline. Who gives a shit?[/QUOTE] well your claim is that violence goes down in the modern state and i was merely pointing out that the state uses violence daily to enforce societal cohesion. if your concern is crime rates then just legalize rape and murder and the illegal rape and murder rates will become non-existent. if your concern is violence then the state has done nothing to stymy it when violence becomes a monopoly of the state.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40311780]no because in a state each and every person has violent force exercised on them whenever they do anything. the state has monopolized violence and increased it exponentially.[/QUOTE] Well, this is something you and I have discussed before. A lack of a strong government always results in a powerful faction taking over and filling that role. Better a state with some accountability and the illusion of choice than radical, violent zealots who seize the throne by force.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40311804]well your claim is that violence goes down in the modern state and i was merely pointing out that the state uses violence daily to enforce societal cohesion. if your concern is crime rates then just legalize rape and murder and the illegal rape and murder rates will become non-existent. if your concern is violence then the state has done nothing to stymy it when violence becomes a monopoly of the state.[/QUOTE] Right, but legalizing them shortens life expectancy and reduces living standards, so no.

and either way, the more restricted a state becomes in exercising violence(generally in libertarian/democratic societies vs. authoritarian ones) the less overall violence there generally is. that fits in with my initial statement that the less accountable an organization is to the multitudes of people, the more violence and oppression there is in society.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40311815]and either way, the more restricted a state becomes in exercising violence(generally in libertarian/democratic societies vs. authoritarian ones) the less overall violence there generally is. that fits in with my initial statement that the less accountable an organization is to the multitudes of people, the more violence and oppression there is in society.[/QUOTE] States should do their job, it doesn't matter what the powers of the state are, as long as it is actually working towards the benefit of all.

[QUOTE=archangel125;40311809]Well, this is something you and I have discussed before. A lack of a strong government always results in a powerful faction taking over and filling that role. Better a state with some accountability and the illusion of choice than radical, violent zealots who seize the throne by force.[/QUOTE] i believe that's a false dichotomy. you can say it's farfetched that people will ever attain full liberty, especially within our lifetimes(i don't expect it in my lifetime at all). however, that doesn't make it impossible, that makes it a goal. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311813]Right, but legalizing them shortens life expectancy and reduces living standards, so no.[/QUOTE] then you aren't concerned with violence or even talking about violence, you are talking about something else completely which isn't particularly useful for what my actual point is. i personally don't believe in trading life expectency or living standards for liberty or self-determination, but that's still a huge digression from violence, its role in society, and how religion fits in.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40311825]States should do their job, it doesn't matter what the powers of the state are, as long as it is actually working towards the benefit of all.[/QUOTE] In this case, Sobotnik, it seems that Yawmwen's just describing the dynamics of power and accountability rather than arguing a point. I think he's right, that's how it tends to work. (I wouldn't go so far as to say libertarianism actually works - I personally think that'll lead to an increase in non-state violence because of the lack of government control) but I'll say that the rest seems spot on.

[QUOTE=Zeke129;40311261]So you can say bullshit like this about Saudi Arabia but god forbid someone cast India in a bad light[/QUOTE] There is definitely some fucked up shit going on in India, but the stuff he's saying about Saudi Arabia and its religious police is not bullshit. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutaween[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia[/url]