Russia entering 'full-fledged economic crisis', says ex- finance minister Alexei Kudrin
187 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46770973]He didn't say "ITS US AND SAUDIS". He just said it was causted by external causes, sanctions and overall world situation.
Not like I am defending him or anything, but if you referer to his words at least don't misinterpret them to oblivion.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/dec/18/vladimir-putin-press-conference-rouble-oil-live[/url]
[QUOTE]He blamed “external factors” for problems with the economy and the ruble. Putin described sanctions against Russia as “illegitimate” and said that Saudi Arabia and the US “might” have conspired to lower oil prices to harm Russia (and Iran).[/QUOTE]
whatever you say
The local Russians down at the bar here probably have the worst moral quagmire possible. They are stuck here in the states working on the Bakkens rigs, while they are able to feed their families and give them whatever they want, they are directly causing the problems their homeland is feeling.
At this point one might say "Maybe you shouldn't have fucking invaded Ukraine".
[QUOTE=DoktorAkcel;46770827]You know what's funny?
THe beggining of XX century began almost like this. Government and church became the one corrupting beast, that seen citizens as resource, not people. Never listened, never thought about what will be in future.
I hope I don't need to remind what happened next.
[editline]22nd December 2014[/editline]
And yes, Kudrin is a butthurt asshole, so don't listen to him. He is somewhat right, but makes it a huge deal.[/QUOTE]
so you're saying that russia is becoming a 100 year long broken record
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;46771168]so you're saying that russia is becoming a 100 year long broken record[/QUOTE]
History tends to repeat itself
Best wishes to everyone dealing with this hit. Stay safe guys.
Will these sanctions make the people angry with Putin or the USA?
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46771785]Will these sanctions make the people angry with Putin or the USA?[/QUOTE]
Depends on the people.
Mainly angry with USA tho.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;46771785]Will these sanctions make the people angry with Putin or the USA?[/QUOTE]
With the extreme media control and censorship it wouldn't exactly come as a shock if the US is looked upon by the common folks as the aggressor on the premise of solely being a dick against the "Russian bear" out of fear, etc.
[QUOTE=ser770;46771874]With the extreme media control and censorship it wouldn't exactly come as a shock if the US is looked upon by the common folks as the aggressor on the premise of solely being a dick against the "Russian bear" out of fear, etc.[/QUOTE]
Wait, do you really expect people to hate Putin for sanctions?
What kind of logic is that?
[b]Hey these guys imposed an embargo on us, they must be great![/b]
Regardless of reasons behind the sanctions they are making people live worse. Sure people will hate the ones who make them live worse.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46771897]Wait, do you really expect people to hate Putin for sanctions?
What kind of logic is that?
[b]Hey these guys imposed an embargo on us, they must be great![/b]
Regardless of reasons behind the sanctions they are making people live worse. Sure people will hate the ones who make them live worse.[/QUOTE]
So in your mind, Putin invading the Ukraine is fine and people should love him for his actions which have been the route cause of the sanctions but they should ignore reality and hate everyone else?
Would it not be worth buying rubles right now then waiting for it's recovery and sell them?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46771897]"Putin did nothing wrong, yet you punish us."[/QUOTE]
A perfect example
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46771897]Wait, do you really expect people to hate Putin for sanctions?
What kind of logic is that?
[b]Hey these guys imposed an embargo on us, they must be great![/b]
Regardless of reasons behind the sanctions they are making people live worse. Sure people will hate the ones who make them live worse.[/QUOTE]
The sanctions are only a response to Putin's actions so yeah, he's the one to blame for the sanctions.
If I kick you in the balls and claim that it's because your father kicked my dog, will you be perfectly fine with your crushed balls?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772185]If I kick you in the balls and claim that it's because your father kicked my dog, will you be perfectly fine with your crushed balls?[/QUOTE]
I can't even find words to how terrible this post is
You guys are very moralistic and shit, but when someone forces you to loose money for a "right cause" it's an invasion. Regardless of the morals, most people in Russia are not responsible for anything you don't like.
Most people will rightfully treat it as a manipulation to force people to revolt against Putin. Because it is a manipulation: you cut our supply to make us revolt.
You guys know that people don't like being manipulated?
I just want you to put yourself in the average joe's shoes. What does it look like to him? Putin did something, then he suddenly has no job and whenever he goes to a vacation europeans ask him what he had done as a citizen of the world to stop the horrible regime of Putin.
I don't know what the fuck you expect.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772222]
Most people will rightfully treat it as a manipulation to force people to revolt against Putin. Because it is a manipulation: you cut our supply to make us revolt.[/QUOTE]
Nobody in their right minds [I]wants[/I] a revolution, what we want is for Putin to come to his senses. If causing the people to be upset and turn against him is the only option, then so be it.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772185]If I kick you in the balls and claim that it's because your father kicked my dog, will you be perfectly fine with your crushed balls?[/QUOTE]
If your dad gives you a car he stole and you get arrested while driving it would you be mad at the police? Russia literally invaded a country and annexed part of it, there's going to be consequences and being mad that there was consequences instead of your leader doing that in the first place is nuts
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772222]You guys are very moralistic and shit, but when someone forces you to loose money for a "right cause" it's an invasion. Regardless of the morals, most people in Russia are not responsible for anything you don't like.
Most people will rightfully treat it as a manipulation to force people to revolt against Putin. Because it is a manipulation: you cut our supply to make us revolt.
You guys know that people don't like being manipulated?
I just want you to put yourself in the average joe's shoes. What does it look like to him? Putin did something, then he suddenly has no job and whenever he goes to a vacation europeans ask him what he had done as a citizen of the world to stop the horrible regime of Putin.
I don't know what the fuck you expect.[/QUOTE]
If for once, instead defending your government, you'd jump out the nationalism box, maybe you'll realize that there is a possibility that the actions of your President, the person whose actions represent your nation to the entire international community, whose actions affect every single Russian in internal matters and the entire world in external decisions, maybe you'll see why people are sanctioning for the invasion of Crimea and condemning those actions.
This entire situation wouldn't exist if Putin didn't decide to mess with Ukraine, it's not because the US or the EU hates Russia and wants them to die or some dumb shit you people have spewed before, it's because your government is shit and has done some very bad things.
[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;46772249]i for one am happy the sanctions are finally making you feel the heat. several russian friends of mine are noticing prices shooting up into the air and how their savings are worth less and less. hopefully things will actually be done to make your totalitarian government have less control about the lives of young people they send into a pointless not-so-secret proxy war to be slaughtered.[/QUOTE]Of course you are happy, you won't be driven into even deeper poverty.
haha wow muffinzerg "I don't see how this is Putins fault beside invading Crimea and all" you're a joke dude.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772301]If for once, instead defending your government, you'd jump out the nationalism box, maybe you'll realize that there is a possibility that the actions of your President, the person whose actions represent your nation to the entire international community, whose actions affect every single Russian in internal matters and the entire world in external decisions, maybe you'll see why people are sanctioning for the invasion of Crimea and condemning those actions.
This entire situation wouldn't exist if Putin didn't decide to mess with Ukraine, it's not because the US or the EU hates Russia and wants them to die or some dumb shit you people have spewed before, it's because your government is shit and has done some very bad things.[/QUOTE]
You do not understand Russia. Like, at all.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;46772426]haha wow muffinzerg "I don't see how this is Putins fault beside invading Crimes and all" you're a joke dude.[/QUOTE]
And you didn't understand what I said. If want I wiill explain it without metaphors though.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772439]You do not understand Russia. Like, at all.[/QUOTE]
That's your response, really?
Does it even have any meaning or specification or are you just going to be vague and said this because you can't figure out anything clever to counter what I posted?
"You don't know Russia", woo so mysterious, please do tell us about the difference between Russia and every other governmental body and how their people react to their actions.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;46772237]Nobody in their right minds [I]wants[/I] a revolution, what we want is for Putin to come to his senses. If causing the people to be upset and turn against him is the only option, then so be it.[/QUOTE]
But don't expect people to like you after that.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772439]You do not understand Russia. Like, at all.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
And you didn't understand what I said. If want I wiill explain it without metaphors though.[/QUOTE]
Please explain without metaphors since the kicking you in the balls one was pretty stupid tbh
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772477]That's your response, really?
Does it even have any meaning or specification or are you just going to be vague and said this because you can't figure out anything clever to counter what I posted?
"You don't know Russia", woo so mysterious, please do tell us about the difference between Russia and every other governmental body and how their people react to their actions.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I can't explain. I tried to explain over a miriad threads, we never come to any agreement with you. I don't understand why you fail to realise that Russians are not a hivemind and that poking Russians and saying:"We are hitting you because of Putin! He's the bad one!" won't work.
First - because you are the agressor after that. You are hitting, directly attacking. It's not seen as logical consequences. In fact it's insulting because other countries can invade anyone, but when Russia did it it became something special apparently. I am not trying to use "US did it too" to justify anything, I am just saying [b]how it looks to everyone[/b].
Second - because Russians don't see your moral statements. They don't read your media. They don't speak your language.
Even if they did, what's more informative and solid: moralistic bullshit from somebody that has never been in your country or lack of money in your wallet?
Third - You don't fucking understand Russia. The only way for people to change the current government is a full scale civil war. You are saying:"Wow guys why didn't you have a civil war yet? Come one you are the society, your government is shit, forge your fate, go kill eachother in a country-scale blood bath!".
In Russia the government and the people are two separate entities, sky and earth. Government is always like an occupant in Russia. It's because of our history: serfdom, USSR. You can't sign an internet petition and change Putin's politics 180 degrees.
You refuse to take in account that 80% people of Russia actually do support Putin with whole heart and mind. The more the West attacks Russia the easier to enforce "us vs them" mentality. To be honest you don't need propoganda for that. The posts in this thread just said:[b]"Yeah guys, we are using you as canon fodder to make you force Putin to do as we say in fear of starving to death. Remember, it's all for justice."[/b]
I know no single person that would not say "If you want something from Putin - negotiate. I won't do shit for your interests".
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;46772509]Please explain without metaphors since the kicking you in the balls one was pretty stupid tbh[/QUOTE]
See above.
Reading that just forges the conclusion that many people have that the Russian government has total power over the people and that Russians rather be okay with it than do anything about it.
It must be a terrible thing to live there.
[editline]22nd December 2014[/editline]
And instead of gaining support of other nations to help change something, you'd rather be against them, pathetic.
[editline]22nd December 2014[/editline]
If this mentality existed during the Salazar dictatorship and of in Portugal, we'd still be an oppressed country, thank god we had a peaceful revolution and actually have freedom to confront our government and make a change to something we don't like.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772564]Reading that just forges the conclusion that many people have that the Russian government has total power over the people and that Russians rather be okay with it than do anything about it.
It must be a terrible thing to live there.
[editline]22nd December 2014[/editline]
And instead of gaining support of other nations to help change something, you'd rather be against them, pathetic.
[editline]22nd December 2014[/editline]
If this mentality existed during the Salazar dictatorship in Portugal, we'd still be an oppressed country, thank god we had a peaceful revolution.[/QUOTE]
I don't want support from everyone that forces me into their "allience".
And yeah, Russian people don't want to die for nothing. What a surprise.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46772244]If your dad gives you a car he stole and you get arrested while driving it would you be mad at the police? Russia literally invaded a country and annexed part of it, there's going to be consequences and being mad that there was consequences instead of your leader doing that in the first place is nuts[/QUOTE]
If the police went the extra mile and had you charged and convicted as an accomplice to theft, then yeah, one would be pretty mad at the police.
I don't know what MuffinZerg's position on the conflict actually is, but so far this hasn't been a "Putin did nothing wrong" issue, but a "you are blithely ignoring how human nature actually works" issue.
Independent of whether or not the sanctions are justified or necessary, when you impose those kinds of economic handicaps on a nation, the people of that nation are going to be fucking pissed at you. Because the average person just trying to get by doesn't really give a shit about all this international power projection and violation of national sovereignty stuff--which, frankly, goes way over their heads--but they [I]do[/I] care about the fact that their money has basically become worthless overnight, and they're going to blame the people who directly and [I]deliberately[/I] caused that to happen, and those people are America and Europe.
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