• Russia entering 'full-fledged economic crisis', says ex- finance minister Alexei Kudrin
    187 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772595]I don't want support from everyone that forces me into their "allience". And yeah, Russian people don't want to die for nothing. What a surprise.[/QUOTE] Being able to freely express yourself against terrible things is what people have been fighting for since the existence of humanity, why do you think things like slavery are abolished? And the Apartheid in South Africa lost power thanks to Nelson Mandela that dedicate his life to free his people from oppression? All this says is that Russia lives in the past with the mentality of warmongers that want nothing but power over everyone. And you bet your ass it's a lot better to be in an alliance where everyone will come to your aid when you need it rather than be an isolated nation crumbling on itself because it is too stubborn to accept they are in the wrong. BTW You can choose to be in the alliance, you know?
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772564]Reading that just forges the conclusion that many people have that the Russian government has total power over the people and that Russians rather be okay with it than do anything about it. It must be a terrible thing to live there. [editline]22nd December 2014[/editline] And instead of gaining support of other nations to help change something, you'd rather be against them, pathetic.[/QUOTE] I think he ment that "We only live with shitty goverment since there is no alternative to one yet and it must be delivered from russian people eventually, rather then abroad since despite commonly accepted idea that there are people out there who know what is better for us, our nation must be the one to breed us new leaders, since bringing in foreign one usually caused more mess."
The fact that you're telling me that you think your people will die trying to gain a chance to condemn your government's actions or protest his resignation, which is something that happens a lot in a lot of other countries, just speaks for itself. I really feel sorry for Russians.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;46770860]Says a guy who comes from a country using Imperial.[/QUOTE] don't talk shit man I'll stick my ft. up your ass
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46772658]I think he ment that "We only live with shitty goverment since there is no alternative to one yet and it must be delivered from russian people eventually, rather then abroad since despite commonly accepted idea that there are people out there who know what is better for us, our nation must be the one to breed us new leaders, since bringing in foreign one usually caused more mess."[/QUOTE] Who said anything about foreigners governing Russia? Portuguese govern Portuguese, Spanish govern Spanish, French govern French, British govern British, German govern German, Americans govern Americans, Russians will govern Russians regardless of the alliance or military alliance your in. The EU or NATO isn't some foreigner alliance that will rule over your country and tell you what you should and shouldn't do, we're still free to do whatever the fuck we want.
Russia has a twenty year plan that involves locking down Arctic oil deposits. China has a ten year plan that involves thorium reactors. I don't see the situation improving for Russia.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772439]You do not understand Russia. Like, at all.[/QUOTE] Muffinzerg, for fuck's sake, it's been months now since I last shouted this very same thing at you, but it still rings true: us not understanding Russia holds no importance in this; Russia not understanding everybody else is [I]your[/I] problem, not everybody else's. THAT is what needs to change. Apply critical thinking, for the love of god. Case: Under Putin's leadership, Russia directly contributed to the separatist uprising and annexing of Crimea, all the while attempting to maintain a status quo/facade of non-accountability and denial amongst the intelligence community and mainstream information flow. The sanctions are enacted because, despite the attempts to conceal involvement, the international community has evidently acquired enough incriminating information to justify the sanctions. It's obvious your media is going to appeal to your nationalism and label everyone else as the enemy. And it's working oh-so-well is what troubles me. The fact that, at least according to you, Russians are more content with just pointing fingers and raging all day at "the West" while their hard-earned resources evaporate right under their noses instead of calling out the leadership for, who would've guessed it, not being competent leaders sounds crazy - leaders at least competent enough to not potentially doom another generation of young, hopeful Russians into a cold, bitter existence of working to make ends meet and brushing things like "dreams" and "ambitions" right off the chart for a chance at stroking that old imperial dick of geopolitical powerplaying again. Why, Muffin, [I]WHY[/I] does it seem completely logical for you to blame somebody else for what your own president brought on you. None of what you are seeing and experiencing is "ayy lmao fucking russia, that'll show em xD". It's the actions of a man so disconnected from reality he'd rather have the women and children go down with his ship. Every time you or Karimatrix says "you guys just don't understand Russia", I can just smell the dank bullshit aroma as it permeates my brain, and sets a rather disturbing precedent to be honest - "Keep oppressing the people long enough and they'll stop caring and resisting". Is this what you are trying to tell the world? That you are perfectly fine with getting tread upon because "meh, didn't work out before, why bother now". What to you, I imagine, paints a picture of Russians as a cool, tempered and battle-scarred veteran warrior who has seen too much, seems to me, and many others, like a broken, sore man with a will so thoroughly shattered that even the concept of fighting for a brighter future for you, your family and your people no longer triggers a response other than passivity. [QUOTE]So long as men will die, liberty will never perish.[/QUOTE] Sounds nice, huh, except, you know, with your attitude, the next tyrant in a long line of tyrants simply steps up without trouble and continues to tell you to point your fingers at everybody BUT him for what he brought on you.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772681]Who said anything about foreigners governing Russia? Portuguese govern Portuguese, Spanish govern Spanish, French govern French, British govern British, German govern German, Americans govern Americans, Russians will govern Russians regardless of the alliance or military alliance your in. The EU or NATO isn't some foreigner alliance that will rule over your country and tell you what you should and shouldn't do, we're still free to do whatever the fuck we want.[/QUOTE] What i ment is that there are way too many examples when after foreign supported opposition takes rule it immidiatly starts "paying back the debt" to those who supported it. And that means that ther political direction gets influenced not by nation for wich they fought, but by those who provided support, even if their pursued their own interests. Cause we live in a world where revolution in a country is too precious of cake to not exploit. Just look how[B] everyone[/B] used ukranian revolution for their benefits. Us, Ukranian Nationalists, Oligarchs, their new goverment and easter rebels... i'd say at this point, ukranian people are the ones who least enjoying it.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772518]Sorry, I can't explain. I tried to explain over a miriad threads, we never come to any agreement with you. I don't understand why you fail to realise that Russians are not a hivemind and that poking Russians and saying:"We are hitting you because of Putin! He's the bad one!" won't work. First - because you are the agressor after that. You are hitting, directly attacking. It's not seen as logical consequences. In fact it's insulting because other countries can invade anyone, but when Russia did it it became something special apparently. I am not trying to use "US did it too" to justify anything, I am just saying [b]how it looks to everyone[/b]. Second - because Russians don't see your moral statements. They don't read your media. They don't speak your language. Even if they did, what's more informative and solid: moralistic bullshit from somebody that has never been in your country or lack of money in your wallet? Third - You don't fucking understand Russia. The only way for people to change the current government is a full scale civil war. You are saying:"Wow guys why didn't you have a civil war yet? Come one you are the society, your government is shit, forge your fate, go kill eachother in a country-scale blood bath!". In Russia the government and the people are two separate entities, sky and earth. Government is always like an occupant in Russia. It's because of our history: serfdom, USSR. You can't sign an internet petition and change Putin's politics 180 degrees. You refuse to take in account that 80% people of Russia actually do support Putin with whole heart and mind. The more the West attacks Russia the easier to enforce "us vs them" mentality. To be honest you don't need propoganda for that. The posts in this thread just said:[b]"Yeah guys, we are using you as canon fodder to make you force Putin to do as we say in fear of starving to death. Remember, it's all for justice."[/b] I know no single person that would not say "If you want something from Putin - negotiate. I won't do shit for your interests". [editline]23rd December 2014[/editline] See above.[/QUOTE] Well dude, that sucks. I'm sorry your country sucks and that your leadership sucks. That's the way the world works. If I recall correctly, I remember a lot of the sentiments around the Ukraine invasion being something between "oh tis not our troops, oh theyre on vacation, oh this is just the way the world is haha". Well, welcome to the way the world is. We can't really put Putin in time out. The world is a flawed place and we have to make do with the things we can control. Yeah, you didn't ask for Putin to lead your country into this shit. Now your country is suffering the consequences and you're pissed because actions have consequences. Y'know, 100 years ago, you could have been a conscript on the front-lines as a result of this. But now its too much to ask you to even question the government? Yeah you're cannon fodder. Because that's what your leaders chose for you, and you can't be mad at the world for that. I can tell you that none of the Ukrainians that have died asked for this shit either, so yeah, we're gonna play world police and say that if you're the aggressor, its your fault. Because the Ukrainians deserve it LESS than you do. None of them wanted that Russian puppet dictator in power either, so they changed something. Is it for the better? Time will tell, but at least they did something.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46772781]What i ment is that there are way too many examples when after foreign supported opposition takes rule it immidiatly starts "paying back the debt" to those who supported it. And that means that ther political direction gets influenced not by nation for wich they fought, but by those who provided support, even if their pursued their own interests. Cause we live in a world where revolution in a country is too precious of cake to not exploit. Just look how[B] everyone[/B] used ukranian revolution for their benefits. Us, Ukranian Nationalists, Oligarchs, their new goverment and easter rebels... i'd say at this point, ukranian people are the ones who least enjoying it.[/QUOTE] Again, no one is calling for a revolution in Russia.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46772780]Every time you or [B]Karimatrix[/B] says "you guys just don't understand Russia", I can just smell the dank bullshit aroma as it permeates my brain, and sets a rather disturbing precedent to be honest - "Keep oppressing the people long enough and they'll stop caring and resisting". Is this what you are trying to tell the world? That you are perfectly fine with getting tread upon because "meh, didn't work out before, why bother now". What to you, I imagine, paints a picture of Russians as a cool, tempered and battle-scarred veteran warrior who has seen too much, seems to me, and many others, like a broken, sore man with a will so thoroughly shattered that even the concept of fighting for a brighter future for you, your family and your people no longer triggers a response other than passivity.[/QUOTE] Whoa, listen here you little man, i am actually quite dedicated to fixing issues with my country's future, soo i can say while standing fucking tall "You don't know shit about my country pal".
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46772805]Whoa, listen here you little man, i am actually quite dedicated to fixing issues with my country's future, soo i can say stading fucking tall "You don't know shit about my country pal".[/QUOTE] Yeah, denying Russian involvement in Ukraine and constantly backpedaling and denying Russia's actions in foreign countries is totally being dedicated to fixing issues.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772801]Again, no one is calling for a revolution in Russia.[/QUOTE] Well then i have no idea what you people arguing about. Perhabs it's just a tone of constant argument that makes it sounds like both sides having way radically diffrent opinion. If you wish Russia a reformation then i am sure Muffin wishes for the same. [QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772815]Yeah, denying Russian involvement in Ukraine and constantly backpedaling and denying Russia's actions in foreign countries is totally being dedicated to fixing issues.[/QUOTE] If you'd be more careful when reading through my information in posts you'd have a far less immature position and perhabs understood what i ment. Althought i might be too optimistic to expect that from a person with such colorful title.
Let's not forget that time everyone called us "Russophobics" lmao
It's so pathetic how blindly patriotic some Russians on here are.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46772781]What i ment is that there are way too many examples when after foreign supported opposition takes rule it immidiatly starts "paying back the debt" to those who supported it. And that means that ther political direction gets influenced not by nation for wich they fought, but by those who provided support, even if their pursued their own interests. Cause we live in a world where revolution in a country is too precious of cake to not exploit. Just look how[B] everyone[/B] used ukranian revolution for their benefits. Us, Ukranian Nationalists, Oligarchs, their new goverment and easter rebels... i'd say at this point, ukranian people are the ones who least enjoying it.[/QUOTE] Oh yes, therefore, passively allow our dictatorship to violate international law and get pissed off when it backfires on us. [editline]22nd December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;46772826]It's so pathetic how blindly patriotic some Russians on here are.[/QUOTE] Eh, honestly, too many Americans are just as bad, you just don't see it on Facepunch. Both are very misguided though.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46772780]Muffinzerg, for fuck's sake, it's been months now since I last shouted this very same thing at you, but it still rings true: us not understanding Russia holds no importance in this; Russia not understanding everybody else is [I]your[/I] problem, not everybody else's. THAT is what needs to change. Apply critical thinking, for the love of god. Case: Under Putin's leadership, Russia directly contributed to the separatist uprising and annexing of Crimea, all the while attempting to maintain a status quo/facade of non-accountability and denial amongst the intelligence community and mainstream information flow. The sanctions are enacted because, despite the attempts to conceal involvement, the international community has evidently acquired enough incriminating information to justify the sanctions. It's obvious your media is going to appeal to your nationalism and label everyone else as the enemy. And it's working oh-so-well is what troubles me. The fact that, at least according to you, Russians are more content with just pointing fingers and raging all day at "the West" while their hard-earned resources evaporate right under their noses instead of calling out the leadership for, who would've guessed it, not being competent leaders sounds crazy - leaders at least competent enough to not potentially doom another generation of young, hopeful Russians into a cold, bitter existence of working to make ends meet and brushing things like "dreams" and "ambitions" right off the chart for a chance at stroking that old imperial dick of geopolitical powerplaying again. Why, Muffin, [I]WHY[/I] does it seem completely logical for you to blame somebody else for what your own president brought on you. None of what you are seeing and experiencing is "ayy lmao fucking russia, that'll show em xD". It's the actions of a man so disconnected from reality he'd rather have the women and children go down with his ship. Every time you or Karimatrix says "you guys just don't understand Russia", I can just smell the dank bullshit aroma as it permeates my brain, and sets a rather disturbing precedent to be honest - "Keep oppressing the people long enough and they'll stop caring and resisting". Is this what you are trying to tell the world? That you are perfectly fine with getting tread upon because "meh, didn't work out before, why bother now". What to you, I imagine, paints a picture of Russians as a cool, tempered and battle-scarred veteran warrior who has seen too much, seems to me, and many others, like a broken, sore man with a will so thoroughly shattered that even the concept of fighting for a brighter future for you, your family and your people no longer triggers a response other than passivity. Sounds nice, huh, except, you know, with your attitude, the next tyrant in a long line of tyrants simply steps up without trouble and continues to tell you to point your fingers at everybody BUT him for what he brought on you.[/QUOTE] I am trying to tell the world that your point of view is not the single true one in last instance. For many people of Russia Crimea is actually, really, 100% honestly their land. They believe it's their land. Leaving Putin aside and all the politics. They actually believe in it. You base all your logic on the idea that Russian people see the events of Ukrainian crisis the same way you do: Russia commited horrible crimes, grabbed some land and caused a rebellion, and is now paying for it. You really believe that everyone in Russia shares that view, but is too afraid to stand up against it. No. They believe Crimea is Russian. They believe they did the right thing. They believe people of Donbass need help. Just think about it. In the eyes of most Russians the US are the oppressors, the invadors, the criminals. And is there anyone in their right to say that US is less of a criminal then Russia? No one will be able to prove it to a common Russian. And sure repeadetely hitting russian Ivan in the face won't make him believe in your way, no matter how long you try. The longer you press - the more powerful Putin is. If the West really wants Putin gone it should just be allies with Russia. If Russia won't stop being surrounded by enemies it will look invard. But all you do is alienate people against yourself. You are not hurting Putin, you are hurting the people and you know it.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772846]I am trying to tell the world that your point of view is not the single true one in last instance. For many people of Russia Crimea is actually, really, 100% honestly their land. They believe it's their land. Leaving Putin aside and all the politics. They actually believe in it. You base all your logic on the idea that Russian people see the events of Ukrainian crisis the same way you do: Russia commited horrible crimes, grabbed some land and caused a rebellion, and is now paying for it. You really believe that everyone in Russia shares that view, but is too afraid to stand up against it. No. They believe Crimea is Russian. They believe they did the right thing. They believe people of Donbass need help. Just think about it. In the eyes of most Russians the US are the oppressors, the invadors, the criminals. And is there anyone in their right to say that US is less of a criminal then Russia? No one will be able to prove it to a common Russian. And sure repeadetely hitting russian Ivan in the face won't make him believe in your way, no matter how long you try. The longer you press - the more powerful Putin is. If the West really wants Putin gone it should just be allies with Russia. If Russia won't stop being surrounded by enemies it will look invard. But all you do is alienate people against yourself. You are not hurting Putin, you are hurting the people and you know it.[/QUOTE] Now all of this is just bullshit, do you really think Putin would say Yes to joining NATO and EU? Please, stop your fantasy excuses.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46772780]Muffinzerg, for fuck's sake, it's been months now since I last shouted this very same thing at you, but it still rings true: [b]us not understanding Russia holds no importance in this; Russia not understanding everybody else is [I]your[/I] problem, not everybody else's. THAT is what needs to change.[/b] Apply critical thinking, for the love of god.[/QUOTE] This, I think, is what's really important here. Just saying "well, you don't understand us!" doesn't matter. Your country did an awful, awful thing and has caused suffering on a huge scale for petty selfish reasons. Because of that, it's now facing consequences that are hurting all the Russian people. You can't just sit there and expect the rest of the world to agree with your narrow view of what's wrong and right.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772846]I am trying to tell the world that your point of view is not the single true one in last instance. For many people of Russia Crimea is actually, really, 100% honestly their land. They believe it's their land. Leaving Putin aside and all the politics. They actually believe in it. You base all your logic on the idea that Russian people see the events of Ukrainian crisis the same way you do: Russia commited horrible crimes, grabbed some land and caused a rebellion, and is now paying for it. You really believe that everyone in Russia shares that view, but is too afraid to stand up against it. No. They believe Crimea is Russian. They believe they did the right thing. They believe people of Donbass need help. Just think about it. In the eyes of most Russians the US are the oppressors, the invadors, the criminals. And is there anyone in their right to say that US is less of a criminal then Russia? No one will be able to prove it to a common Russian. And sure repeadetely hitting russian Ivan in the face won't make him believe in your way, no matter how long you try. The longer you press - the more powerful Putin is. If the West really wants Putin gone it should just be allies with Russia. If Russia won't stop being surrounded by enemies it will look invard. But all you do is alienate people against yourself. You are not hurting Putin, you are hurting the people and you know it.[/QUOTE] Oh cry me a fucking river. Your country's actions got innocent Ukrainians killed. Your 'rebels' shot down a passenger jet. I don't give two fucks about what the average brainwashed Russian believes. You've complicitly allowed things to reach this point, and this is what happens. This isn't because we hate Russia or anything like that. It's because you actually just need to be stopped so that you don't get more innocent people killed in random countries at your borders, because Putin feels insecure about the safety of the country. This isn't about you at all. It's about protecting other countries who just want peaceful co-existance and growth.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772864]Now all of this is just bullshit, do you really think Putin would say Yes to joining NATO and EU? Please, stop your fantasy excuses.[/QUOTE] Why would he need to join NATO and EU? Putin wouldn't say yes and rightfully so, unless he wanted Russia to loose all its power.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772889]Why would he need to join NATO and EU? Putin wouldn't say yes and rightfully so, [B]unless he wanted Russia to loose all its power.[/B][/QUOTE] hahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahha
[QUOTE=Elspin;46772869]This, I think, is what's really important here. Just saying "well, you don't understand us!" doesn't matter. Your country did an awful, awful thing and has caused suffering on a huge scale for petty selfish reasons. Because of that, it's now facing consequences that are hurting all the Russian people. You can't just sit there and expect the rest of the world to agree with your narrow view of what's wrong and right.[/QUOTE] Oh, awful things. Oh my god, all the crimes of showering Criema with money.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46772874]Oh cry me a fucking river. Your country's actions got innocent Ukrainians killed. Your 'rebels' shot down a passenger jet. I don't give two fucks about what the average brainwashed Russian believes. You've complicitly allowed things to reach this point, and this is what happens. This isn't because we hate Russia or anything like that. It's because you actually just need to be stopped so that you don't get more innocent people killed in random countries at your borders, because Putin feels insecure about the safety of the country. This isn't about you at all. It's about protecting other countries who just want peaceful co-existance and growth.[/QUOTE] This is quite ironic coming from an American. You're not very self aware when you imply no one should give a fuck what the average russian thinks are you?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772895]Oh, awful things. Oh my god, all the crimes of showering Criema with money.[/QUOTE] Reply to my post.
You don't understand that countries are looking for peaceful and economical ways that benefit both the government and the people and Russia is literally the only country disrupting that. There's no excuses to search for the Russian territorial expansion and craving of war when the better alternative already exists. Everyone but Russia is pursuing the alternative while defending themselves and others for a potential threat and, unfortunately, that is what Russia is right now, a threat to the world because they are escalating things into an unnecessary state that isn't beneficial to anyone, especially themselves.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;46772897]This is quite ironic coming from an American. You're not very self aware when you imply no one should give a fuck what the average russian thinks are you?[/QUOTE] I'm a Ukrainian immigrant thanks. I'm a little biased about the issue I'll admit, but mostly because if it weren't for pure luck, I'd be drafted into the Ukrainian army right now, and I'd be shooting at Russian rebels. So if its a little easier for you to sit in Australia and play Russian apologist, you'll have to forgive me when I don't really care.
So again, you take the feelings of Russians over the feelings of Ukrainians without a second thought.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772901]You don't understand that countries are looking for peaceful and economical ways that benefit both the government and the people and Russia is literally the only country disrupting that. There's no excuses to search for the Russian territorial expansion and craving of war when the better alternative already exists.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture"]It is all for world peace[/URL] [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/nato-east-european-bases-counter-russian-threat"]Nobody is expanding but Russia[/URL]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772846]I am trying to tell the world that your point of view is not the single true one in last instance. For many people of Russia Crimea is actually, really, 100% honestly their land. They believe it's their land. Leaving Putin aside and all the politics. They actually believe in it. [/QUOTE] TBH this is just factually wrong, it doesn't matter if Russians think it's theirs it honestly isn't. I can believe I'm the emperor of Japan if I want but it won't make it true. [QUOTE]You base all your logic on the idea that Russian people see the events of Ukrainian crisis the same way you do: Russia commited horrible crimes, grabbed some land and caused a rebellion, and is now paying for it. You really believe that everyone in Russia shares that view, but is too afraid to stand up against it.[/QUOTE] That's not a way to see events, that's... what happened. I mean it's not like there's any dispute among anybody - Putin himself knows that he was taking another nation's territory he just figured he could get away with it. We don't think Russian's think any way - but they'd be deluded not to. [QUOTE]No. They believe Crimea is Russian. They believe they did the right thing. They believe people of Donbass need help.[/QUOTE] Then they're extremely deluded? I mean this is pretty basic stuff, just look at a fucking map maybe? It's not like every country on the planet decided to put Crimea as part of Russia for giggles [QUOTE]Just think about it. In the eyes of most Russians the US are the oppressors, the invadors, the criminals. And is there anyone in their right to say that US is less of a criminal then Russia? No one will be able to prove it to a common Russian.[/QUOTE] Uh, yes, the people of Ukraine that were displaced and invaded have the right to say that Russia are the oppressors because they are. They invaded a country. They annexed its territory. A part of a sovereign country is now being occupied by a foreign force. Either way, why are you bringing the US specifically into this? Most of the world thinks Russia's nuts, and the US had no real military involvement here. [QUOTE]And sure repeadetely hitting russian Ivan in the face won't make him believe in your way, no matter how long you try. The longer you press - the more powerful Putin is. If the West really wants Putin gone it should just be allies with Russia. If Russia won't stop being surrounded by enemies it will look invard. But all you do is alienate people against yourself. You are not hurting Putin, you are hurting the people and you know it.[/QUOTE] Putin's resources are dependant on his country - which is economically collapsing. If you think this is making Putin stronger, you're nuts
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.