• Russia entering 'full-fledged economic crisis', says ex- finance minister Alexei Kudrin
    187 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Elspin;46772923] Then they're extremely deluded? I mean this is pretty basic stuff, just look at a fucking map maybe? It's not like every country on the planet decided to put Crimea as part of Russia for giggles [/QUOTE] Do you have any real proof that it's not you that's deluded apart from "yeah its obvious we are right"? Or can we leave the right and wrong bullshit aside as it's always subjective and nobody is objectively right?
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772901] [B]Everyone but Russia is pursuing the alternative while defending themselves[/B] and others for a potential threat and, unfortunately, that is what Russia is right now, a threat to the world because they are escalating things into an unnecessary state that isn't beneficial to anyone, especially themselves.[/QUOTE] Ever heard of Israel?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772916][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture"]It is all for world peace[/URL] [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/nato-east-european-bases-counter-russian-threat"]Nobody is expanding but Russia[/URL][/QUOTE] Annexing territory is a little bit different then letting countries benefit from being under the protection of an alliance don't you think? [editline]22nd December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=karimatrix;46772938]Ever heard of Israel?[/QUOTE] Yeah, fuck 'em too. Why does your argument constantly devolve into "well other people do it too". Strive to be better, for fucks sake.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772916][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Intelligence_Committee_report_on_CIA_torture"]It is all for world peace[/URL] [URL="http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/nato-east-european-bases-counter-russian-threat"]Nobody is expanding but Russia[/URL][/QUOTE] What are these articles even? We are talking about Russia, stop trying to shift attention to something else for once.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46772940]Annexing territory is a little bit different then letting countries benefit from being under the protection of an alliance don't you think?[/QUOTE] Why put the bases on our borders though? It's not like it's a new tendency. Do you really deny the fact that ever since 1998 Russia has been gaining power as a counterweight to the Western NATO bloc and NATO was originally a anti-Soviet coalition?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46772938]Ever heard of Israel?[/QUOTE] Everyone but Russia and Israel******* woo what a difference
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772953]What are these articles even? We are talking about Russia, stop trying to shift attention to something else for once.[/QUOTE] [quote]Everyone but Russia is pursuing the alternative while defending themselves and others for a potential threat and, unfortunately, that is what Russia is right now, a threat to the world because they are escalating things into an unnecessary state that isn't beneficial to anyone, especially themselves.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46772913]I'm a Ukrainian immigrant thanks. I'm a little biased about the issue I'll admit, but mostly because if it weren't for pure luck, I'd be drafted into the Ukrainian army right now, and I'd be shooting at Russian rebels. So if its a little easier for you to sit in Australia and play Russian apologist, you'll have to forgive me when I don't really care.[/QUOTE] you dont care yet you keep posting on this topic. I dont give two shits about your background either, it means zilch. you seem to miss the point too, either purposefully or ignorantly. You're whole post is the presumption that no one should care what the average russian thinks because their government is involved in acts of aggression. By your logic, no one should care what the average US poster on FP thinks, because their country has been and is involved, in numerous acts of aggression and criminal acts on an international scale. You get it? fuck off with that russia apologist bullshit
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46772940] Yeah, fuck 'em too. Why does your argument constantly devolve into "well other people do it too". Strive to be better, for fucks sake.[/QUOTE] It's not an argument it's just a reminded to not paint one side black while everybody else all white.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772936]Do you have any real proof that it's not you that's deluded apart from "yeah its obvious we are right"? Or can we leave the right and wrong bullshit aside as it's always subjective and nobody is objectively right?[/QUOTE] I'm trying to bring this across in a way that even someone incapable of a single independent thought could understand but here's the basics: -Russia does not decide borders -Crimea was part of Ukraine, which will be verified by all maps prior to the invasion and even the Russia government who originally gave the land to Ukraine -Russia invaded Ukraine at which point in this universally accepted history does your mind warp the situation into "and then Russia was doing the right thing". By your logic every invasion that has ever happened could be decided to not be an invasion because the invaders could just say "but nobody knows what's right". This isn't a philosophy class, so unless you're a stoned 16 year old I'd recommend dropping that train of thought. Russia invaded a country. That is undisputed fact.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;46772977]you dont care yet you keep posting on this topic. I dont give two shits about your background either, it means zilch. you seem to miss the point too, either purposefully or ignorantly. You're whole post is the presumption that no one should care what the average russian thinks because their government is involved in acts of aggression. By your logic, no one should care what the average US poster on FP thinks, because their country has been and is involved, in numerous acts of aggression and criminal acts on an international scale. You get it? fuck off with that russia apologist bullshit[/QUOTE] I care very much about the issue. I don't care about your assessment of it. I do not mean that what the average Russian thinks doesn't matter. I think it matters a lot, because if the average Russian thought that the current system is wrong, then maybe things would change. I don't care that they feel like this is somehow the worlds fault. Our USA posters seem to have no trouble admitting that the USA is a deeply flawed country that we're working on changing. This is not something we see from Russia, so its a huge false equivalency.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46772965]Everyone but Russia and Israel******* woo what a difference[/QUOTE] Aaaand, uh, everyone else? Wake up, NATO is in constant unneeded wars ever since it was created, there is no need for NATO soldiers in Somali, Yemen, Afghanistan. Iraq was the only one a little bit justified, somewhat. The world of today is nowhere near to the peaceful haven you imagine it to be. People still care about interests because, what a surprise, there is no utopia and countries race for domination in various spheres of life. Nuclear warfare makes sure we don't go all in, but it doesn't mean that all people of earth are brothers and we don't have any competition anymore, save for some underdeveloped savage countries like Russia and Israel.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46772982]It's not an argument it's just a reminded to not paint one side black while everybody else all white.[/QUOTE] We're not. You are.
If this is the average Russian, no wonder the country is going in a loop of constant bullshit. Hopefully Putin and the government after him won't cause any more trouble to its neighbors or escalate international affairs into something worse. Absolutely incredible.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46772992]Aaaand, uh, everyone else? Wake up, NATO is in constant unneeded wars ever since it was created, there is no need for NATO soldiers in[B] Somali, Yemen, Afghanistan. Iraq [/B]was the only one a little bit justified, somewhat. The world of today is nowhere near to the peaceful haven you imagine it to be. People still care about interests because, what a surprise, there is no utopia and countries race for domination in various spheres of life. Nuclear warfare makes sure we don't go all in, but it doesn't mean that all people of earth are brothers and we don't have any competition anymore, save for some underdeveloped savage countries like Russia and Israel.[/QUOTE] I don't really know anything about the first three, but Iraq was certainly not justified. So I'm going assume that you're wrong about the other three too unless you can show me some good sources.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46772983]I'm trying to bring this across in a way that even someone incapable of a single independent thought could understand but here's the basics: -Russia does not decide borders -Crimea was part of Ukraine, which will be verified by all maps prior to the invasion and even the Russia government who originally gave the land to Ukraine -Russia invaded Ukraine at which point in this universally accepted history does your mind warp the situation into "and then Russia was doing the right thing". By your logic every invasion that has ever happened could be decided to not be an invasion because the invaders could just say "but nobody knows what's right". This isn't a philosophy class, so unless you're a stoned 16 year old I'd recommend dropping that train of thought. Russia invaded a country. That is undisputed fact.[/QUOTE] Okay. 1. Russian governemnt never game Crimea to Ukraine, it was USSR. The transition was not ratified. 2. People of Crimea want to be a part of Russia. That's the only thing that matters. 3. Nobody is ever doing the right thing. US or NATO are in no position to teach anyone morals. The whole Ukrainian crisis is not your business, Russia did not kill civillians in Ukraine. Your belief that you are the only right one in the world is incredible. Even Russians question the validity of their points, but you never do.
Hearts out to those affected by this. Hope you Russian FPers are doing aight. Sucks this is starting around the holidays.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46772994]We're not. You are.[/QUOTE] No sir, I am that guy who paints [B]everyone[/B] gray. My country included. Sorry if forgot to mention that ten times in a thread to ensure your opinion on me is not based solely by reaction to my posts in this particular thread. I am sure that was not intentional of you.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773019]Okay. 1. Russian governemnt never game Crimea to Ukraine, it was USSR. The transition was not ratified. 2. People of Crimea want to be a part of Russia. That's the only thing that matters. 3. Nobody is ever doing the right thing. US or NATO are in no position to teach anyone morals. The whole Ukrainian crisis is not your business, Russia did not kill civillians in Ukraine. Your belief that you are the only right one in the world is incredible. Even Russians question the validity of their points, but you never do.[/QUOTE] Where do you lack in understanding and information that Americans, Europeans and even Asians alike have condemned NATO actions in the Middle East for the last 2 decades?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46772805]Whoa, listen here you little man, i am actually quite dedicated to fixing issues with my country's future, soo i can say while standing fucking tall "You don't know shit about my country pal".[/QUOTE] I really do hope you are, Karimatrix. And if what you say is true, I hope there are many more like you steadily making their way through the woodworks to finally overtake the old men playing with young people's lives. All of this serves no master but chaos.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773019]Okay. 1. Russian governemnt never game Crimea to Ukraine, it was USSR. The transition was not ratified. [B]2. People of Crimea want to be a part of Russia. That's the only thing that matters. [/B] 3. Nobody is ever doing the right thing. US or NATO are in no position to teach anyone morals. The whole Ukrainian crisis is not your business, Russia did not kill civillians in Ukraine. Your belief that you are the only right one in the world is incredible. Even Russians question the validity of their points, but you never do.[/QUOTE] Your only evidence of this is a ballot where armed Rebels waited outside the booths. This is somehow supposed to convince anyone? I mean I know that's how elections in Russia work, but the rest of the world, (I'm gonna exclude the USA for this one though), actually sticks to Democratic principles.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773035]Where do you lack in understanding and information that Americans, Europeans and even Asians alike have condemned NATO actions in the Middle East for the last 2 decades?[/QUOTE] I guess it comes from that NATO wiped their ass with those angry letters? If there was real consequences for NATO besides that, please, do share.
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46773005]I don't really know anything about the first three, but Iraq was certainly not justified. So I'm going assume that you're wrong about the other three too unless you can show me some good sources.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(2006)"]Invasions[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile"]are okay[/URL] [URL="http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-government-of-iran"]if you do it for[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions"]FREEDOM[/URL] [editline]23rd December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773035]Where do you lack in understanding and information that Americans, Europeans and even Asians alike have condemned NATO actions in the Middle East for the last 2 decades?[/QUOTE] Condomened? Condemn Russia the same way. Bitch about it for a day and do business again so people can get money (both your and our people).
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773055][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(2006)"]Invasions[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile"]are okay[/URL] [URL="http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-government-of-iran"]if you do it for[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions"]FREEDOM[/URL][/QUOTE] I don't support any of those actions and I'm certainly going to become politically involved once I become a citizen. What's your excuse?
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46773038]I really do hope you are, Karimatrix. And if what you say is true, I hope there are many more like you steadily making their way through the woodworks to finally overtake the old men playing with young people's lives. All of this serves no master but chaos.[/QUOTE] Steadily is the word. No worries here. There is a nice example of current russian opposition as in "how to fuck up being real opposition" soo we learn by the book.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773019]Okay. 1. Russian governemnt never game Crimea to Ukraine, it was USSR. The transition was not ratified.[/QUOTE] Says who? It's been a part of Ukraine all this time, it's too late to say "we changed our minds" [QUOTE]2. People of Crimea want to be a part of Russia. That's the only thing that matters.[/QUOTE] First off, no it's not, you can't just break out of your country because you decided you want to be in a different one. If I decided I wanted my house to be part of Italy it's not happening, and it shouldn't. Even if that was what should happen your statement is still false because the people of Crimea didn't necessarily want to become a part of Russia. Some of them did, sure, but the only vote was massively fraudulent so how would you even know? [QUOTE]3. Nobody is ever doing the right thing. US or NATO are in no position to teach anyone morals. The whole Ukrainian crisis is not your business, Russia did not kill civillians in Ukraine.[/QUOTE] Yes, some people are doing the right thing and objectively so. Let me explain something about right, wrong, and moral grey area to you. There are situations where, yes, it's hard to say what was right or wrong - is it ok to kill 1 person who would have lived otherwise to save 5 people? etc. But there are situations where no sane person could ever consider them not to be morally wrong or right. One example of such a situation is [b]invading and annexing a country[/b]. [QUOTE][b]Your belief that you are the only right one in the world is incredible.[/b] Even Russians question the validity of their points, but you never do.[/QUOTE] The irony in this statement is so massive it's unbelievable :v: Honestly it's not me that's right or wrong, this is what the international community has by majority decided and Russia is the only one not on board. Hence, sanctions. I'm not deluded like you, I know when my country is doing the wrong or right thing and I speak up against it. Residential schools were wrong. The race riots were wrong. Supporting Britain in some of it's colonialism was wrong. So step up to the plate and realize when your country is doing something wrong
[QUOTE=Kybalt;46773070]I don't support any of those actions and I'm certainly going to become politically involved once I become a citizen. What's your excuse?[/QUOTE] Alright, that is really interesting, please do share your aproach to the case in a few sentances if possible. No sarcasm in my words.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46773081]Says who? It's been a part of Ukraine all this time, it's too late to say "we changed our minds" First off, no it's not, you can't just break out of your country because you decided you want to be in a different one. [/QUOTE] [b]Are you sure?[/b] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014[/URL] I will not dispute on moral issues anymore, sorry. You don't seem to understand that only people of your part of the globe see it as an annexation whilist many Russians sincerely see it as a liberation. These are not just words. There are people of different opinion, get used to it. To you Russia invaded Crimea and Donbass. To Donbass Ukraine sent artillery to shell their cities, Russia came with help but later backpedaled. To Crimea Russia saved them from Donbass's fate. To Ukraine Russia held them in economical slavery and later invaded them. To US Russia stood up too much during the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia's_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War"]Syrian politic games[/URL].
also lmao at you guys always talking about "Us vs Them" mentality and you're always the ones creating this also again you still don't understand two wrongs don't make a right so I don't understand how somebody else's actions justify yours "he killed this person, why can't I kill this one as well?"
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46773084]Alright, that is really interesting, please do share your aproach to the case in a few sentances if possible. No sarcasm in my words.[/QUOTE] Basically, get money out of politics so that American politics isn't shaped by a bunch of rich dudes and lobbyists. Most Americans are good people, and when the actual issues are explained to them without any Dem/Rep/Scary "socialism" tags, they generally agree. [url]http://fee.org/freeman/detail/wealth-inequality-predictably-irrational[/url] Before this is done, pushing through anything else basically won't work because the politicians are not for the people. So to do that: [url]http://www.wolf-pac.com/[/url] They've already gotten 3 out of the 35 states necessary for a constitutional convention to get money out of politics. The this has only happened once in the history of the USA before, and the last time as it was 2~ states away, congress suddenly unfucked themselves because they realized that it would pass, and they wouldn't get voted in again anyway. Ideally also raise awareness about this: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gEz__sMVaY[/url] because I think that it would still remain an issue even without money. It would instead be replaced by too many special interest groups drowning out the real issues in terms of volume instead of focusing on problems the government actually should be dealing with. (ie: creationists lobbies becoming huge)
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