Russia entering 'full-fledged economic crisis', says ex- finance minister Alexei Kudrin
187 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773121]also lmao at you guys always talking about "Us vs Them" mentality and you're always the ones creating this
also again you still don't understand two wrongs don't make a right so I don't understand how somebody else's actions justify yours
"he killed this person, why can't I kill this one as well?"[/QUOTE]
A killed a person and was not punished.
B killed a person and I was punished.
The just way would be to punish both. But only one is punished. It means the law doesnt work.
The Crimean referendum didn't uphold to the standards of fair and free elections, was rushed, and done in a period of chaos and disorganization.
You cannot say that the Crimeans wanted to leave or not, and it does not hold any legitimacy in international law.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773094][b]Are you sure?[/b]
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014[/URL][/QUOTE]
You're forgetting the fact that it was a referendum which was officially sanctioned by the UK government, not a foreign military force stationed outside the voting booths.
[QUOTE=Deng;46773146]The Crimean referendum didn't uphold to the standards of fair and free elections, was rushed, and done in a period of chaos and disorganization.
You cannot say that the Crimeans wanted to leave or not, and it does not hold any legitimacy in international law.[/QUOTE]
Well why won't a credible media outlet poll Crimeans and find out then?
Yet again, if Crimean people are under occupation then why is there no rebellion, no protests, no anti-russia activism, no closed borders?
You know, you, me and all people in that thread can take a vacation to Crimea any time. Would Russia really let people into Crimea if the majority of crimeans wished Russians to be gone?
We all know how Russians act. Russians would seal it off to prevent information from spreading.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Adam.GameDev;46773167]You're forgetting the fact that it was a referendum which was officially sanctioned by the UK government, not a foreign military force stationed outside the voting booths[/QUOTE]
With how Maidan went, did you expect Ukraine to go "Oh sure guys, go to our sworn enemies if you want to, no problems at all!"?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773143]A killed a person and was not punished.
B killed a person and I was punished.
The just way would be to punish both. But only one is punished. It means the law doesnt work.[/QUOTE]
A fought for protection of their people and security of their resources while maintaining relations with C
B fought for expansion and disruption of unity of D
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773094][b]Are you sure?[/b]
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014[/URL][/QUOTE]
Great, this is a good example of how things should actually work. Some people decided they wanted to leave the UK so they:
1) Started a movement
2) Organized a legitimate, monitored poll
3) Had a massive voter turnout where everyone was heard
4) Peacefully decided whether or not the majority actually wanted it to happen
what happened in Crimea was [b]not[/b] like that. If it was, I'd have supported it 100% of the way. The government is still not required to give up territory but at least if it's organized democratically people will often be on their side. There's places that legally want to separate from their country for stupid reasons all the time, and ultimately it's a big deal that has to have a lot of opinion and discussion on it instead of just deciding "welp, we're out seeya"
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773169]With how Maidan went, did you expect Ukraine to go "Oh sure guys, go to our sworn enemies if you want to, no problems at all!"?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't expect them to with an illegitimate referendum
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773180]A fought for protection of their people and security of their resources while maintaining relations with C
B fought for expansion and disruption of unity of D[/QUOTE]
Do you think Russia is really driven by [b]"We need more land for the sake of land"[/b] and [b]"We need to disrupt unity of developed nations for the sake of it"[/b]?
Russia like any country is fighting for it's interests. Russia is not a cartoonish evil land, it's a country like any other.
And law is same for everyone or it doesn't work. At least according to democratic principles. You want democratic principles, right?
[QUOTE=Elspin;46773187]Great, this is a good example of how things should actually work. Some people decided they wanted to leave the UK so they:
1) Started a movement
2) Organized a legitimate, monitored poll
3) Had a massive voter turnout where everyone was heard
4) Peacefully decided whether or not the majority actually wanted it to happen
what happened in Crimea was [b]not[/b] like that. If it was, I'd have supported it 100% of the way. The government is still not required to give up territory but at least if it's organized democratically people will often be on their side. There's places that legally want to separate from their country for stupid reasons all the time, and ultimately it's a big deal that has to have a lot of opinion and discussion on it instead of just deciding "welp, we're out seeya"[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it was not done right.
But it was a year ago. If Crimea wanted Russia to leave it alone it would already take action. At least some action.
I bet 10 years later western politicians will still poke Russia with "Illegal annexation! Land grab! Expansionist! Imperialist! Return Crimea!"
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773143]A killed a person and was not punished.
B killed a person and I was punished.
The just way would be to punish both. But only one is punished. It means the law doesnt work.[/QUOTE]
That still doesn't justify doing the very stuff we themselves condemn. Like, Putin often goes on rants about how this or another country did something close to what he's doing, he always forgets to mention that Russia condemned those actions. And then doing that very thing? That's bullshit. If anything, it makes Putin's regime look even worse, hypocritical as fuck.
Sure it's bullshit that some particular countries just get away with doing awful thing. But that's how the world is, nobody can punish countries like United States and their allies because their economies are so integrated into the rest of the world sanctioning them would be suicide. It ain't fair, but it's certainly not changing any time soon. Instead of adapting to change and competing properly, by making economy stronger to the point where Russia becomes immune, Putin just jumped the shark and did something the country wasn't quite prepared for the consequences of. That's stupid to ignore that.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773169]Well why won't a credible media outlet poll Crimeans and find out then?[/quote]
A poll has no legal bearing.
[quote]Yet again, if Crimean people are under occupation then why is there no rebellion, no protests, no anti-russia activism, no closed borders?[/quote]
Same reason Austria didn't when it was annexed in 1938.
It is well known that the Crimean referendum was not done in the interests or wellbeing of the Crimean people, and lacks any legal standing.
People can say "Russia used to own it", but this means jack shit when Russia also used to own Estonia and Georgia.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773121]also lmao at you guys always talking about "Us vs Them" mentality and you're always the ones creating this
also again you still don't understand two wrongs don't make a right so I don't understand how somebody else's actions justify yours
"he killed this person, why can't I kill this one as well?"[/QUOTE]
Here is a nice thought. If your world is soo perfect and nobody but Russia is chasing their personal goals and ambitions, then how do we end up with soo much crap everywhere else? What about Spanish Cathalonia, Hong Kong's protests, Turkey, Syria, Mexico's cartels, Israel on Palestina, North Korea, hell, what about USA? Why soo much is happening constantly despite many nations being soo righteous by your definition? Why not to step in and fix everything? Well guess what,[B] because politics are complicated[/B] and if you believe fairy tales then adress all the shit that is being ignored in favor of some sick ambitions and schemes in a world elsewhere but Russia.
It's not about "two wrongs". It's about pretending that other wrongs don't exist cause you wanna bitch about very specific one.
It's like saying to a guy in a firefight that he should've brought a goose intead of machinegun, while everyone is blowing up walls.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773211]Yeah, it was not done right.
But it was a year ago. If Crimea wanted Russia to leave it alone it would already take action. At least some action.
I bet 10 years later western politicians will still poke Russia with "Illegal annexation! Land grab! Expansionist! Imperialist! Return Crimea!"[/QUOTE]
basically you literally just said it was okay for Russia to annex Crimea by force because they didn't fight for their land back in time.
Shit, we fucked up then because the German empire should have kept most of Europe because the countries took too long to push them back.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46773187]Great, this is a good example of how things should actually work. Some people decided they wanted to leave the UK so they:
1) Started a movement
2) Organized a legitimate, monitored poll
3) Had a massive voter turnout where everyone was heard
4) Peacefully decided whether or not the majority actually wanted it to happen
what happened in Crimea was [B]not[/B] like that. If it was, I'd have supported it 100% of the way. The government is still not required to give up territory but at least if it's organized democratically people will often be on their side. There's places that legally want to separate from their country for stupid reasons all the time, and ultimately it's a big deal that has to have a lot of opinion and discussion on it instead of just deciding "welp, we're out seeya"[/QUOTE]
Also to point out, that Crimea had a poll to join Russia, not a poll for independence. I think if Crimea wanted autonomous status and wanted to go it's own way, it probably would have been a lot more acceptable. But they were literally annexed by the Russian federation.
It sets a terrible precedent if a large neighboring country can influence or coerce a small region into having a referendum to completely violate the sovereignty of it's parented country. It doesn't fall under the umbrella humanist concept of "self-determination," they had a poll to make their own future be determined by Russia.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773211]Yeah, it was not done right.
But it was a year ago. If Crimea wanted Russia to leave it alone it would already take action. At least some action.[/QUOTE]
Weren't you saying before that the Russian people don't take action against the current regime because they "don't want to die for nothing"?
[QUOTE=Deng;46773219]
It is well known that the Crimean referendum was not done in the interests or wellbeing of the Crimean people, and lacks any legal standing.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think "It is well known" holds any water.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=gudman;46773216]That still doesn't justify doing the very stuff we themselves condemn. Like, Putin often goes on rants about how this or another country did something close to what he's doing, he always forgets to mention that Russia condemned those actions. And then doing that very thing? That's bullshit. If anything, it makes Putin's regime look even worse, hypocritical as fuck.
Sure it's bullshit that some particular countries just get away with doing awful thing. But that's how the world is, nobody can punish countries like United States and their allies because their economies are so integrated into the rest of the world sanctioning them would be suicide. It ain't fair, but it's certainly not changing any time soon. Instead of adapting to change and competing properly, by making economy stronger to the point where Russia becomes immune, Putin just jumped the shark and did something the country wasn't quite prepared for the consequences of. That's stupid to ignore that.[/QUOTE]
So you suggest giving in?
RIC of BRICS could really form a good counterweight. Many countries are tired of that not-working international law when weathly can do as they please.
It's sure stupid to ignore that, but Russia builds it's politics and influence mostly from being a counterweight to NATO. It's literally the only thing that keeps Russia revelant on a global scale so I think it would be stupid to just give it up.
That's really debatable though and only history will tell us who was right in the end.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46773229]basically you literally just said it was okay for Russia to annex Crimea by force because they didn't fight for their land back in time.
Shit, we fucked up then because the German empire should have kept most of Europe because the countries took too long to push them back.[/QUOTE]
Can you call it "by force" if no force was used?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773211]Yeah, it was not done right.
But it was a year ago. If Crimea wanted Russia to leave it alone it would already take action. At least some action.[/QUOTE]
Crimea is under military occupation by Russia, one of the two most powerful military forces in the world. Any Ukrainians left in Crimea who aren't Russian nationalists would undoubtedly be black bagged and forgotten before they can do anything like many others.
[QUOTE]I bet 10 years later western politicians will still poke Russia with "Illegal annexation! Land grab! Expansionist! Imperialist! Return Crimea!"[/QUOTE]
You act like that's a bad thing. "Oh boohoo, we illegal invaded and annexed a country then supplied and backed rebel groups who likely shot down a passenger plane it's not like it was a big deal."
[QUOTE=Elspin;46773305]Crimea is under military occupation by Russia, one of the two most powerful military forces in the world. Any Ukrainians left in Crimea who aren't Russian nationalists would undoubtedly be black bagged and forgotten before they can do anything like many others.
[/QUOTE]
Please explain the following:
[quote]Well why won't a credible media outlet poll Crimeans and find out then?
Yet again, if Crimean people are under occupation then why is there no rebellion, no protests, no anti-russia activism, no closed borders?
You know, you, me and all people in that thread can take a vacation to Crimea any time. Would Russia really let people into Crimea if the majority of crimeans wished Russians to be gone?
We all know how Russians act. Russians would seal it off to prevent information from spreading.[/quote]
[quote]
You act like that's a bad thing. "Oh boohoo, we illegal invaded and annexed a country then supplied and backed rebel groups who likely shot down a passenger plane it's not like it was a big deal."[/QUOTE]
If you ask my subjective opinion then I would say the whole proxy war was bullshit. You either fight or not, otherwisre it gets out of hand. The rebels are now shame for display.
But about Crimea - you guys keep repeating that it was annexed illegally with no evidence. I don't think such things as illegal annexations exist as I never heard of a legal annexation. So I can't say if it's a bad thing or a good thing, I can say it's bullshit for sure. People that have never been to Crimea, Russia or Ukraine know more then Crimeans, Russians and Ukrainians about who owns which land. Yeah right.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773318]Please explain the following:[/QUOTE]
you said earlier you'd be killed if people did this against the Russian government
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773318]But about Crimea - you guys keep repeating that it was annexed illegally with no evidence. I don't think such things as illegal annexations exist as I never heard of a legal annexation. So I can't say if it's a bad thing or a good thing, I can say it's bullshit for sure. People that have never been to Crimea, Russia or Ukraine know more then Crimeans, Russians and Ukrainians about who owns which land. Yeah right.[/QUOTE]
Educate yourself then?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773274]
So you suggest giving in?
RIC of BRICS could really form a good counterweight. Many countries are tired of that not-working international law when weathly can do as they please.
It's sure stupid to ignore that, but Russia builds it's politics and influence mostly from being a counterweight to NATO. It's literally the only thing that keeps Russia revelant on a global scale so I think it would be stupid to just give it up.
That's really debatable though and only history will tell us who was right in the end.
[/QUOTE]
I suggest nothing, I'm no politician or economy specialist. I know one thing for certain, Russia is nowhere near ready to become a counterweight to most NATO countries on their own, much less the whole alliance. The economy just isn't strong enough, and now it's getting even weaker. And that's result of a major strategic mistake.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773340]you said earlier you'd be killed if people did this against the Russian government[/QUOTE]
So everyone is just afraid?
And not a single one guy tried to shoot a russian soldier in the back?
[b]Different issues[/b]. I talked about misplacing Putin and completely changing Russian regime to favor the Western ideas. That [b]requires[/b] a civil war because the whole system of power has to be changed.
Defending a small patch of land from invadors with full support of the international community - [b]different[/b].
Afghanistan can fight USA for ages with guerrilla warfare. Crimea could defeat Russia easily as it's remote and close to a potential ally - Ukraine.
[i]But even if we imagine for a second that Russia killed in Crimea everyone capable of revolting.[/i]
How about international agencies polling people then?
oh now it's different issues, ok
only when the argument suits you, you argue but the moment it backfires, change the subject
hilarious
[QUOTE=gudman;46773366]I suggest nothing, I'm no politician or economy specialist. I know one thing for certain, Russia is nowhere near ready to become a counterweight to most NATO countries on their own, much less the whole alliance. The economy just isn't strong enough, and now it's getting even weaker. And that's result of a major strategic mistake.[/QUOTE]
That I can't be the devils avocado on. Terrible economic management (to say the least) has no excuses, it's extremely sad. That I would revolt against, had we had some alternatives.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773377]oh now it's different issues, ok
only when the argument suits you, you argue but the moment it backfires, change the subject
hilarious[/QUOTE]
If defending Crimea from Russian invadors and changing the Russian regime are the same things I would like to hear your analysis of the situation. I am really sincerely interested how would you call the two not different issues.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773370]So everyone is just afraid?
And not a single one guy tried to shoot a russian soldier in the back?
[b]Different issues[/b]. I talked about misplacing Putin and completely [b]changing Russian regime to favor the Western ideas[/b]. That [b]requires[/b] a civil war because the whole system of power has to be changed.
Defending a small patch of land from invadors with full support of the international community - [b]different[/b].
Afghanistan can fight USA for ages with guerrilla warfare. Crimea could defeat Russia easily as it's remote and close to a potential ally - Ukraine.
[i]But even if we imagine for a second that Russia killed in Crimea everyone capable of revolting.[/i]
How about international agencies polling people then?[/QUOTE]
You misunderstand. We don't need you to [i]like the US[/i], hell tonnes of Canadians don't like the US. We just want you to [i]not invade and annex countries[/i]. I'm not (technically) from the US, I don't give two shits what you think of the US and I have no idea why you keep bringing them up aside from them handing out the sanctions because nobody else really can. This is about Russia being a dick to Ukraine, not the US and Russia.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773377]oh now it's different issues, ok
only when the argument suits you, you argue but the moment it backfires, change the subject
hilarious[/QUOTE]
And you are Eagle Eye Joe.
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1443008&p=46773227&viewfull=1#post46773227[/url]
Seriously, tendancy to go personal in such arguments need to go.
Cudos to Kybalt for having some good intentions thought.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773382]If defending Crimea from Russian invadors and changing the Russian regime are the same things I would like to hear your analysis of the situation. I am really sincerely interested how would you call the two not different issues.[/QUOTE]
You keep bringing up the US and NATO's actions in arguments about Russia-Crimea but those are also different issues and have nothing to do with it, so I don't see how your logic applies here.
[QUOTE=Elspin;46773399]You misunderstand. We don't need you to [i]like the US[/i], hell tonnes of Canadians don't like the US. We just want you to [i]not invade and annex countries[/i]. I'm not (technically) from the US, I don't give two shits what you think of the US and I have no idea why you keep bringing them up aside from them handing out the sanctions because nobody else really can. This is about Russia being a dick to Ukraine, not the US and Russia.[/QUOTE]
It's about US and Russia really. Or maybe US, Saudis and Russia.
But totally not about morals. No morals in politics.
Also in that post I didn't even mention the US.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46773421]And you are Eagle Eye Joe.
[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1443008&p=46773227&viewfull=1#post46773227[/url]
Seriously, tendancy to go personal in such arguments need to go.
Cudos to Kybalt for having some good intentions thought.[/QUOTE]
I didn't even read that post, it's pointless.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773441]You keep bringing up the US and NATO's actions in arguments about Russia-Crimea but those are also different issues and have nothing to do with it, so I don't see how your logic applies here.[/QUOTE]
Arrow pointing, are we?
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46773449]I didn't even read that post, it's pointless.[/QUOTE]
I am going to hang this on a wall.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773458]Arrow pointing, are we?[/QUOTE]
Making no sense because you have none, I see.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773458]I am going to hang this on a wall.[/QUOTE]
That's... creepy.
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