Russia entering 'full-fledged economic crisis', says ex- finance minister Alexei Kudrin
187 replies, posted
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773274]I don't think "It is well known" holds any water.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
So you suggest giving in?
RIC of BRICS could really form a good counterweight. Many countries are tired of that not-working international law when weathly can do as they please.
It's sure stupid to ignore that, but Russia builds it's politics and influence mostly from being a counterweight to NATO. It's literally the only thing that keeps Russia revelant on a global scale so I think it would be stupid to just give it up.
That's really debatable though and only history will tell us who was right in the end.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
Can you call it "by force" if no force was used?[/QUOTE]
Well when you position your much larger nation's army at the border and basically let rebels have all the toys they want to overthrow the government so they can hand it to you afterwards, yes that is considered a proxy war.
[QUOTE=codemaster85;46773502]Well when you position your much larger nation's army at the border and basically let rebels have all the toys they want to overthrow the government so they can hand it to you afterwards, yes that is considered a proxy war.[/QUOTE]
They never tried to overthrow the government, but yeah, this is a proxy war and I don't like it and don't see why it was nececary.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773274]I don't think "It is well known" holds any water.[/QUOTE]
Give me a reason why Crimea should be part of Russia, considering the following:
[b]No legal basis[/b]
[QUOTE=Deng;46773548]Give me a reason why Crimea should be part of Russia, considering the following:
[b]No legal basis[/b][/QUOTE]
People want it.
I value what people want over legal issues because international law only works for the ones that enforce it, and every 10 years it can turn 180 degrees.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773554]People want it.[/QUOTE]
The referendum holds no legal standing and you cannot say the people want it.
Saying "The people of Crimea wanted it" is unverified. The referendum does not hold up to scrutiny or standards.
Therefore, the popularity argument does not exist.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773554]People want it.
I value what people want over legal issues because international law only works for the ones that enforce it, and every 10 years it can turn 180 degrees.[/QUOTE]
You can't prove that people want it when it's under occupation and management of a government you admit to take extreme measures if something doesn't go their way.
[QUOTE=Deng;46773567]The referendum holds no legal standing and you cannot say the people want it.
Saying "The people of Crimea wanted it" is unverified. The referendum does not hold up to scrutiny or standards.
Therefore, the popularity argument does not exist.[/QUOTE]
You can't prove that people don't want it either. I don't give a fuck about referendum and it's standards, it was a year ago. I would honestly not be surprised if Crimeas spent a year in Russia and started asking Ukraine to help them fight off Russians. But they did not.
Even so, just because people want it does not mean an entire city can be given up to another country.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773587]You can't prove that people don't want it either.[/QUOTE]
Then why did Russia annex Crimea if people don't know if the Crimeans want it or not?
[QUOTE=Deng;46773594]Then why did Russia annex Crimea if people don't know if the Crimeans want it or not?[/QUOTE]
People do know. People voted, people stayed. Some left.
It's us internet experts that don't know shit.
[editline]23rd December 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=itisjuly;46773590]Even so, just because people want it does not mean an entire city can be given up to another country.[/QUOTE]
Why not? Aren't we free to choose?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773598]People do know. People voted, people stayed. Some left.[/QUOTE]
They do not. The referendum results are not accurate.
Crimea has been annexed on the basis of inaccurate information.
[QUOTE=Deng;46773631]They do not. The referendum results are not accurate.
Crimea has been annexed on the basis of inaccurate information.[/QUOTE]
Prove it
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773635]Prove it[/QUOTE]
Again, you already said Russian government would take extreme actions if things don't go their way. Such as you know, lying about a referendum.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773635]Prove it[/QUOTE]
I can't prove a negative. You don't say "prove the earth doesn't go around the sun" for instance.
The default position is that we don't know what the Crimeans want.
Therefore, the referendum must pass several factors before it is accepted as accurate and meaningful information.
Now, tell me why the referendum should be treated as being accurate and holding meaningful information.
I can say "the earth goes around the sun", but this statement is not verified unless i have relevant and accurate information to back it up.
[b]Wow.[/b]
If all Russians are as brainwashed by Putin's propaganda machine as the ones in this thread, no wonder their country's screwed
Jesus fuck
dumbing me just proves my point even further
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773635]Prove it[/QUOTE]
For fucks sake dude, what else do you want?
Your government blitzkrieged the shit out of that Peninsula while all you denied it and blindly said the little green men weren't russian.
Are you expecting a referendum, held days after that peninsula being taken under military control by non-recognized russian troops, to be fair and rightful and people to have access to it?
Fuck, Hitler might as well have invaded Poland, forced a referendum and get away with it....
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773635]Prove it[/QUOTE]
the sudden blitzkrieg of "radicals" with very advance military vehicles and equipment taking over the capital wasn't enough proof?
oh wait, they didn't have a Russian flag on their uniform so it must be radicals :rolleyes:.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773587]You can't prove that people don't want it either. [/QUOTE]
That's why he said "no legal basis"
You're arguing like a 5th grader
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773635]Prove it[/QUOTE]
A good sign that the referendum wasn't valid, was that there wasn't a "no" option on it.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773635]Prove it[/QUOTE]
God damn it Muffinzerg, just dig up all the old threads when the referendum happened. Some other posters and I made some long-ass posts explaining why, with news articles and everything, and you dismissed all of it as "western propaganda" and conjecture and what have you.
There were tons upon tons of evidence, and yet the only thing you chose to do was ignore it. There was even a bingo card with all the fallacies Russians used to ignore the evidence in front of them. You didn't believe us then. You won't believe us now. Russia is completely and utterly fucked because Russians are too proud to admit their government is deeply flawed.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46773635]Prove it[/QUOTE]
[thumb]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/news/special/panels/14/mar/ukrainereferendum/img/graphic_1394456042.jpg[/thumb]
For those English speakers out there, this is what the translated ballot says:
1. Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?
2. Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine? (The wording "restoring the 1992 constitution" does not make it clear whether this refers to the original version of the constitution, declaring Crimea an independent state, or the later amended version, in which Crimea was an autonomous republic within Ukraine).
It's definitely unclear in the wording whether or not the second option would give Crimea back to Ukraine. Not to mention that the referendum wasn't at all legal since, to put it short, Crimea was under military occupation at the time and a lot of really shady shit went down with the 'little green men' who just happened to look like this:
[thumb]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73507000/jpg/_73507099_soldiers.jpg[/thumb]
Which looks a hell of a lot like the Barmitsa system rolled out in 2011 by the Russian Ground Forces:
[thumb]http://i58.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/88/721d6ab1e875ea76cccbc4b4d2355488.jpg[/thumb]
In addition, 97% of the votes were to join Russia. That would mean that the ~37% of Ukrainians and Tatars that supposedly voted in the election voted to join Russia despite not being ethnic Russians. If anything, they would likely gravitate towards the second option and the people who would want to join Russia would be a minority of that 37%, but that isn't the case at all. Even without going into the accusations of ballot stuffing, the way the referendum played out doesn't make sense.
[QUOTE=Malos;46776290]
For those English speakers out there, this is what the translated ballot says:
1. Do you support reunifying Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?
2. Do you support the restoration of the 1992 Crimean constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine? (The wording "restoring the 1992 constitution" does not make it clear whether this refers to the original version of the constitution, declaring Crimea an independent state, or the later amended version, in which Crimea was an autonomous republic within Ukraine).
[b]So either way, Ukraine wasn't going to get Crimea back[/b].[/QUOTE]
How exactly did you arrive to this conclusion when the article 9 of the 1992 Constitution says plainly that Crimean Republic is part of Ukraine? Not that I disagree with the notion that referendum was bullshit, but there definitely was a "NO" option. The part about 'restoring the Constitution" refers to implication that it was ever broken, when legally it wasn't so. Second option is a "NO" option.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46772780]
...
What to you, I imagine, paints a picture of Russians as a cool, tempered and battle-scarred veteran warrior who has seen too much, seems to me, and many others, like a broken, sore man with a will so thoroughly shattered that even the concept of fighting for a brighter future for you, your family and your people no longer triggers a response other than passivity.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's not so far away from the truth. You see, we live in a vicious circle of hopes and disenchantments, but with every iteration hopes decline and disenchantments grow. Russia has a rich history of fuckups, so I don't think anyone in this country truly believes in some brighter future (well, except some crazy nationalists maybe. or karimatrix hehehe), especially with all these recent events. Whichever way we choose will make it even worse. It's probably too late to turn back with all this stuff that happened.
I don't know if Russia will make it through this crisis or not, but i don't believe anything will change for russians even if it will.
[QUOTE=antianan;46776666]Actually, it's not so far away from the truth. You see, we live in a vicious circle of hopes and disenchantments, but with every iteration hopes decline and disenchantments grow. Russia has a rich history of fuckups, so I don't think anyone in this country truly believe in some brighter future (well, except some crazy nationalists maybe. or karimatrix hehehe), especially with all these recent events. Whichever way we choose will make it even worse. It's probably too late to turn back with all this stuff that happened.
I don't know if Russia will make it through this crisis or not, but i don't believe anything will change for russians even if it will.[/QUOTE]
Well, there are [B]finally[/B] some good news coming about ruble rising steady now, china signed a swap contract on trade with Russia, soo the "crisis" going to be two years of crawling out of recession, not an end of the world for Russia as many try to picture it. It will be tought but not as horrible as it sounds. US had it recession, had their moments of panic And yes Deng, before ya cut in with "Russian Economy is worse than US economy", i am just comparing how people overreact to things.
As for my personal stance - it's based on experience, and learning on other people's mistakes.
ruble's rate is irrelevant (though i'm pretty sure it will drop again after the new year celebrations), the situation in economy is, and all these chinese or turkish doses won't heal an addict our country is.
But i'm not even talking about economical problems, as they are just consequences of russian mentality.
[QUOTE=antianan;46776774]ruble's rate is irrelevant (though i'm pretty sure it will drop again after the new year celebrations), the situation in economy is, and all these chinese or turkish doses won't heal an addict our country is.
But i'm not even talking about economical problems, as they are just consequences of russian mentality.[/QUOTE]
Soo rather then see positive signals you prefer to simply label everything as hopeless. You do realise that this is also part of "mentality" you talking about? To take everything as fatally negative and simply go with it?
Ukraine issue is beating a dead horse...
Russia took what they wanted- Ukraine couldn't stop them. End of.
Only real question at this point is how devalued does the ruble have to be before Putin gets a pink slip?
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46776839]Soo rather then see positive signals you prefer to simply label everything as hopeless. You do realise that this is also part of "mentality" you talking about? To take everything as fatally negative and simply go with it?[/QUOTE]
I prefer to call my point of view "an existential realistic hopelessness" or something. Actually, it's just my opinion on things, don't take it so personal. People like me always whine about something.
At this point it probably would've been cheaper to just buy Crimea from Ukraine.
[QUOTE=Grimhound;46776956]At this point it probably would've been cheaper to just buy Crimea from Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
Knowing Ukraine they would delay payment three times untill EU would pay for them, soo... no not really.
Crap, bad reading, sorry.
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