Garena(LoL's SEA esports partner)'s new rules, barring teams with more than one Lesbian, Gay, or Tra - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;47072817]What is the reasoning behind all the dumbs on these posts? It has been proven in a couple of studies that men's reaction time is outstandingly superior to women's reaction time, thanks to evolution. [/QUOTE] Statistically significant difference does not mean it makes a difference in real world application. If there is proof that the 50-100ms difference between genders (which I assume is a mean anyway, meaning in the group there will be men who have slower reaction times than women) makes a difference in games played competitively today then it would make sense.

[QUOTE=wraithcat;47069007]The fun part is, it only targets mtf transgender people as opposed to ftm. Their argument pretty much seems to be -real girls can't play games[/QUOTE] Well then again it's more likely for some nerdy kid in what's now [I]her[/I] basement, to purchase the latest Miss Fortune skin with increased boobage. /sarcasm I can't believe this shit is even legal.

[QUOTE=Fetret;47072981]Statistically significant difference does not mean it makes a difference in real world application. If there is proof that the 50-100ms difference between genders (which I assume is a mean anyway, meaning in the group there will be men who have slower reaction times than women) makes a difference in games played competitively today then it would make sense.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The effect of gender did not reach statistical significance (male, M 885 msec; female, M 903 msec)"[/QUOTE] Its 25ms which wasn't high enough for statistical significance and therefore doesn't prove there is a difference between genders. It not reaching statistical significance means it wasn't varied enough to not count for the general differences between people and the likelihood of them just happening to have slightly more males with higher reaction times hence why we have statistical significance. Edit: its a 2.6% approximate difference, that's how little it was and why the difference can't be explained through gender.

I guess this is what happens when old-ass bigots are in charge.

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;47072900]And they've reversed the decision. [url]http://esports.garena.ph/newsArticle.php?contentid=00000604&cat=NEWS&subcat=LEAGUE+OF+LEGENDS[/url][/QUOTE] Good. Bloody idiots.

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;47072900]And they've reversed the decision. [url]http://esports.garena.ph/newsArticle.php?contentid=00000604&cat=NEWS&subcat=LEAGUE+OF+LEGENDS[/url][/QUOTE] Aka they got the Riot stick slammed so far up their ass that they're never gonna forget to run shit past them again :v:

[QUOTE=Ripmax;47073203]Its 25ms which wasn't high enough for statistical significance and therefore doesn't prove there is a difference between genders. It not reaching statistical significance means it wasn't varied enough to not count for the general differences between people and the likelihood of them just happening to have slightly more males with higher reaction times hence why we have statistical significance. Edit: its a 2.6% approximate difference, that's how little it was and why the difference can't be explained through gender.[/QUOTE] Oops read the near-significant as significant. You are exactly right about the definition of statistical significance, and I was trying to point out exactly that. Statistical significance does not mean anything in this context unless the effects of the difference were specifically applied to a gaming scenario. Seeing "significant difference" in a paper is much different than daily use. (Though I would have to say 2.6% difference can be explained through gender perhaps with a larger study group since you would require a larger n-number to prove a smaller difference. The original point still stands though, significant or not someone has to prove that the 2.6% difference actually has an impact on gameplay.)

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;47069132]I'd say it's more likely that gender-segregated esports exist because there's still a lot of sexism in the video game community and it's basically the only way women are going to be able to play in a tournament right now. These rules regarding gay and transgender players are just fucked though.[/QUOTE] I don't get it, how is it the only way women can play in a tournament? Is it because tournaments organizers discriminate on female players because they're sexist? Well, organizers who set up female-only events such as this one most likely aren't. From then on, can't they set up events that are completely gender-blind and solve the problem while avoiding segregation? Is it because male players are sexist, thus women players are harassed during those events? Then the solution would be to ban sexist pieces of shit instead of barring males from entry as a whole. I really don't see how gender-restricted tournament are supposed to solve the problem at hand.

I can only imagine the initial fear was like some ridiculous bro movie scenario where a pro team of guys decides to join the girls-only tournament thinking they can get some quick cash

[QUOTE=Nifae;47069016]This is utterly ridiculous. Someone's sexuality or gender has no influence on their ability to play video games.[/QUOTE] Well uhhh women do have poorer reaction time scientifically speaking but that's probably nothing to do with this They seem to be saying 'we did this because teams are recruiting specifically minorities just for the sake of diversity and ignoring more-capable players who are part of the social majority' which is a legitimate concern but I dunno if a rule like this is the correct solution

[QUOTE=_Axel;47074303]I don't get it, how is it the only way women can play in a tournament? Is it because tournaments organizers discriminate on female players because they're sexist? Well, organizers who set up female-only events such as this one most likely aren't. From then on, can't they set up events that are completely gender-blind and solve the problem while avoiding segregation? Is it because male players are sexist, thus women players are harassed during those events? Then the solution would be to ban sexist pieces of shit instead of barring males from entry as a whole. I really don't see how gender-restricted tournament are supposed to solve the problem at hand.[/QUOTE] Reminder that the only esports fistfight was between two female teams :v:

[QUOTE=Crimor;47074553]Reminder that the only esports fistfight was between two female teams :v:[/QUOTE] Link? I've heard that mentioned before, but not found anything from googling.

[QUOTE=RayvenQ;47075075]Link? I've heard that mentioned before, but not found anything from googling.[/QUOTE] I forgot what tournament it was, but it was talked about on TB's podcast yesterday.

[QUOTE=Crimor;47075157]I forgot what tournament it was, but it was talked about on TB's podcast yesterday.[/QUOTE] found it. [url]http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/11/counter-strike-go-female-team-assaulted/[/url]

[QUOTE=_Axel;47074303]I don't get it, how is it the only way women can play in a tournament? Is it because tournaments organizers discriminate on female players because they're sexist? Well, organizers who set up female-only events such as this one most likely aren't. From then on, can't they set up events that are completely gender-blind and solve the problem while avoiding segregation? Is it because male players are sexist, thus women players are harassed during those events? Then the solution would be to ban sexist pieces of shit instead of barring males from entry as a whole. I really don't see how gender-restricted tournament are supposed to solve the problem at hand.[/QUOTE] You generally get two tournaments or leagues. A gender neutral one and a female only. The female only one exist in part to promote the game among women, with the hope that the environment will allow women to get into a similar position as men already are. a) sponsoring b) social acceptance Plus since there's so many less female pro players, you want them to ideally be more visible, in order to attract more women.

[QUOTE=_Axel;47074303]I don't get it, how is it the only way women can play in a tournament? Is it because tournaments organizers discriminate on female players because they're sexist? Well, organizers who set up female-only events such as this one most likely aren't. From then on, can't they set up events that are completely gender-blind and solve the problem while avoiding segregation? Is it because male players are sexist, thus women players are harassed during those events? Then the solution would be to ban sexist pieces of shit instead of barring males from entry as a whole. I really don't see how gender-restricted tournament are supposed to solve the problem at hand.[/QUOTE] It's the same idea as chess. Not a lot of women play, so in addition to the normal non-gendered tournaments you also run a few women-only ones. The idea is mainly that people feel more comfortable about doing something outside the social norm if they see other people doing it as well. Even if the scene was 100% accepting of women (which it's not), a lot of women would still feel uncomfortable.

[QUOTE=Limed00d;47070110]This is like saying women are inherently terrible drivers because they're women. They're not.[/QUOTE] No it isn't because I didn't say that did I? I don't know why saying men have faster reaction times when it comes to split second things is so controversial apparently.

[QUOTE=Aman;47076870]I don't know why saying men have faster reaction times when it comes to split second things is so controversial apparently.[/QUOTE] Because they don't.

[QUOTE=Aman;47076870]No it isn't because I didn't say that did I? I don't know why saying men have faster reaction times when it comes to split second things is so controversial apparently.[/QUOTE] you should read this post [QUOTE=Ripmax;47073203]Its 25ms which wasn't high enough for statistical significance and therefore doesn't prove there is a difference between genders. It not reaching statistical significance means it wasn't varied enough to not count for the general differences between people and the likelihood of them just happening to have slightly more males with higher reaction times hence why we have statistical significance. Edit: its a 2.6% approximate difference, that's how little it was and why the difference can't be explained through gender.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=wraithcat;47076355]You generally get two tournaments or leagues. A gender neutral one and a female only. The female only one exist in part to promote the game among women, with the hope that the environment will allow women to get into a similar position as men already are. a) sponsoring b) social acceptance Plus since there's so many less female pro players, you want them to ideally be more visible, in order to attract more women.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ECrownofFire;47076741]It's the same idea as chess. Not a lot of women play, so in addition to the normal non-gendered tournaments you also run a few women-only ones. The idea is mainly that people feel more comfortable about doing something outside the social norm if they see other people doing it as well. Even if the scene was 100% accepting of women (which it's not), a lot of women would still feel uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] Alright, so as I understand it this is used more as a communication move to get more women to join the medium than to correct unfair treatment of female players. First off, is that absolutely necessary? That those mediums have a lack of appeal towards females is a shame and they're probably missing out, but is it an objectively bad thing for a scene to interest certain demographics more than others? If it's something that could have a positive influence on the medium, something an increase in diversity usually yield indeed, wouldn't that be achievable in a way that doesn't involve segregation which could be misconstrued as being a measure against a male hostility that may not even be there, ie doing the exact opposite of what you're trying to do by painting the medium as intolerant? There are ways to give off a positive vision towards potential female players, like media coverage of prominent women in the scene, without resorting to gender discrimination that goes against the very foundation of the mindset you're trying to promote.

If you're so convinced you're right, provide counter-arguments to my point, for fuck's sake! Being confident in a belief implies you're ready to expose it to criticism. In fact you can only make it stronger by having it stand the test of logic.

[QUOTE=_Axel;47077124]Alright, so as I understand it this is used more as a communication move to get more women to join the medium than to correct unfair treatment of female players. First off, is that absolutely necessary? That those mediums have a lack of appeal towards females is a shame and they're probably missing out, but is it an objectively bad thing for a scene to interest certain demographics more than others? If it's something that could have a positive influence on the medium, something an increase in diversity usually yield indeed, wouldn't that be achievable in a way that doesn't involve segregation which could be misconstrued as being a measure against a male hostility that may not even be there, ie doing the exact opposite of what you're trying to do by painting the medium as intolerant? There are ways to give off a positive vision towards potential female players, like media coverage of prominent women in the scene, without resorting to gender discrimination that goes against the very foundation of the mindset you're trying to promote.[/QUOTE] You're looking at an area with 99-100% male representation. I really don't see how a couple of women-only tournaments could [I]possibly[/I] make that look [I]more[/I] sexist in this imaginary person's head, considering the fact that the main tournaments have no restriction on gender.

[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;47079671]You're looking at an area with 99-100% male representation. I really don't see how a couple of women-only tournaments could [I]possibly[/I] make that look [I]more[/I] sexist in this imaginary person's head, considering the fact that the main tournaments have no restriction on gender.[/QUOTE] Thanks for your reply. That does sound like a big stretch, I was only given this impression because TacticalBacon seemed to think female-only tournaments were set up for this purpose. Not everybody thinks gender-dominated mediums are automatically sexist, though. That also doesn't mean gender-restricted tournaments aren't unfair towards the other gender. You can't argue for equal treatment between genders and then make concessions when it goes towards higher diversity. Do you think a white-only rap contest would sit well with the average folk? I guess my point is, I'll always take unbalanced distribution of genders in a scene, which isn't inherently indicative of unfair treatment, over gender-based discrimination which is sexism by definition.

[QUOTE=_Axel;47079501]If you're so convinced you're right, provide counter-arguments to my point, for fuck's sake! Being confident in a belief implies you're ready to expose it to criticism. In fact you can only make it stronger by having it stand the test of logic.[/QUOTE] Oh so this must be why you pmed me. Over a rating, lol. Since I'm already making a post I'll just reiterate what ECrownofFire said.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;47080342]Oh so this must be why you pmed me. Over a rating, lol. Since I'm already making a post I'll just reiterate what ECrownofFire said.[/QUOTE] Sorry if I'm interested in what you believe is wrong with my opinion. ECrownofFire didn't address most of my post though. I'd be glad if you elaborated a bit more.

[QUOTE=_Axel;47080372]Sorry if I'm interested in what you believe is wrong with my opinion.[/QUOTE] You should definitely go about it differently next time. With no context it was just confusing to even get a pm like that but on top of that it came across a lot more as whining about ratings than simply wanting people to actually post why they're opposed to your opinion. [QUOTE=_Axel;47077124]Alright, so as I understand it this is used more as a communication move to get more women to join the medium than to correct unfair treatment of female players. First off, is that absolutely necessary? That those mediums have a lack of appeal towards females is a shame and they're probably missing out, but is it an objectively bad thing for a scene to interest certain demographics more than others?[/QUOTE] There's a fair amount of female gamers but for the most part they don't end up competing with others and fairly often they will end up avoiding even playing online in any fashion that involves other gamers finding out they're a girl (ie: voice chat) because most of the other gamers aren't going to leave them alone. [QUOTE]If it's something that could have a positive influence on the medium, something an increase in diversity usually yield indeed, wouldn't that be achievable in a way that doesn't involve segregation which could be misconstrued as being a measure against a male hostility that may not even be there, ie doing the exact opposite of what you're trying to do by painting the medium as intolerant? There are ways to give off a positive vision towards potential female players, like media coverage of prominent women in the scene, without resorting to gender discrimination that goes against the very foundation of the mindset you're trying to promote.[/QUOTE] They're trying to make female gamers more comfortable by removing a fairly large part of the reason so many female gamers avoid dealing with other gamers in any public fashion. Since so many gamers either put them down simply for being a girl or try to put them up on a pedestal for the same reason and so few simply treat them as just another gamer most lady gamers aren't going to really feel comfortable with participating in something like a pro gaming tournament that's like 99% guys.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;47080443]There's a fair amount of female gamers but for the most part they don't end up competing with others and fairly often they will end up avoiding even playing online in any fashion that involves other gamers finding out they're a girl (ie: voice chat) because most of the other gamers aren't going to leave them alone. They're trying to make female gamers more comfortable by removing a fairly large part of the reason so many female gamers avoid dealing with other gamers in any public fashion. Since so many gamers either put them down simply for being a girl or try to put them up on a pedestal for the same reason and so few simply treat them as just another gamer most lady gamers aren't going to really feel comfortable with participating in something like a pro gaming tournament that's like 99% guys.[/QUOTE] Seems like it's an issue with some male gamers being sexist, then. How does segregation solve that problem, though? Not only does it goes against feminist beliefs, but it's not going to help inclusion of women in the main tournaments since they'll only be encouraged to participate to female-only tournaments. To solve this issue we need to fix the problems with the main tournaments. You don't fix a bathtub leak by pouring more water in it.

You're looking at it wrong. It's specifically centered around encouraging more women to participate. The more women participate the more will also go to standard tournaments as well. The more that happens the more sexist comments and treatment will get drowned out and the more unacceptable it will become to be sexist.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;47080523]You're looking at it wrong. It's specifically centered around encouraging more women to participate. The more women participate the more will also go to standard tournaments as well. The more that happens the more sexist comments and treatment will get drowned out and the more unacceptable it will become to be sexist.[/QUOTE] So is it worthwhile to you to be sexist in order to achieve that goal? Punishing sexist behavior in the main tournaments would achieve the same results without having to be hypocritical. Something about violating core feminist principles in order to further it just rubs me the wrong way.

[QUOTE=_Axel;47080543]So is it worthwhile to you to be sexist in order to achieve that goal? Punishing sexist behavior in the main tournaments would achieve the same results without having to be hypocritical. Something about violating core feminist principles in order to further it just rubs me the wrong way.[/QUOTE] open tournaments with no gender restrictions have not resulted in an increase in female members. and having a female only tournament is hardly [I]violating core feminist principles.[/I] it's hard, if not impossible, to push for more diversity in a community while also appeasing a group that was already included. not implying that these dudes are doing a good job at it, but the general point still stands. literally every other tournament in the history of videogames has not had restrictions on gender. go to one of those.