Most Scots consider themselves 'Scottish only', census figures show - Polidicks

[QUOTE=ScratchNsniff;42328619]Is it ok if I read everyone's posts in a scottish accent in this thread? Please?[/QUOTE] I have an Edinburgh accent (English with some slight Scots) so do that for my posts.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;42328423]Since when should self-determination be done at the expense of the people? That's just a stupid idea (not that I think Scottish independence would necessarily go wrong, but I'm just addressing the point)[/QUOTE] If it's the people who want self-determination, then it's not at their expense.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42328687]If it's the people who want self-determination, then it's not at their expense.[/QUOTE] Except that this is a decision that can and will cause major disruption to national companies, self determination doesn't exclusively affect Scotland.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42320081]Tbh the Scots are just a slightly different flavour of English. There's some differences between the Welsh and English, but hardly any between the Scots and English tbh.[/QUOTE] Yeah, come up to the North East and say that matey. Aberdeen is a city and Doric is so thick that most people can't understand it, nevermind that the purer forms spoken in the towns is even thicker because they've not had much reason to dilute it to a level that is more comprehensible to others.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;42328805]Yeah, come up to the North East and say that matey. Aberdeen is a city and Doric is so thick that most people can't understand it, nevermind that the purer forms spoken in the towns is even thicker because they've not had much reason to dilute it to a level that is more comprehensible to others.[/QUOTE] This holds true for the Northeast of England as well.

[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;42328767]Except that this is a decision that can and will cause major disruption to national companies, self determination doesn't exclusively affect Scotland.[/QUOTE] How it affects others is irrelevant. My freedom of speech may annoy or anger some, but it doesn't make it any less a right to have.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42328837]How it affects others is irrelevant. My freedom of speech may annoy or anger some, but it doesn't make it any less a right to have.[/QUOTE] When you're talking about a nationwide effect then yes, it is relevant. To treat it with a blasé manner would be incredibly foolish. This isn't about freedom of speech, this is about being aware of the consequences of breaking up the union.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328836]This holds true for the Northeast of England as well.[/QUOTE] Similar situation, but not exactly the same, considering that common thought holds that Scots is a distinct variant of English based on a more ancient form, and Doric is a Dialect of that. A similar thread amongst linguists classes old Scots (Sadly rarely used but I have a dictionary of it from when my Dad was a boy) as a distinct language, in much the same way that Danish is distinct from Norwegian, despite the great deal of similarity. So please, don't tar Scotland with a brush made of your experiences being from Edinburgh, the country has a wee bit more texture to it than you make out.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;42328940]Similar situation, but not exactly the same, considering that common thought holds that Scots is a distinct variant of English based on a more ancient form, and Doric is a Dialect of that. A similar thread amongst linguists classes old Scots (Sadly rarely used but I have a dictionary of it from when my Dad was a boy) as a distinct language, in much the same way that Danish is distinct from Norwegian, despite the great deal of similarity. So please, don't tar Scotland with a brush made of your experiences being from Edinburgh, the country has a wee bit more texture to it than you make out.[/QUOTE] Yet the vast bulk of the population lives in the Lowlands and have spoken English since the middle ages. There have been varying dialects but they constitute a minority of the population and do not justify independence.

[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;42328887]When you're talking about a nationwide effect then yes, it is relevant. To treat it with a blasé manner would be incredibly foolish. This isn't about freedom of speech, this is about being aware of the consequences of breaking up the union.[/QUOTE] Self determination is a right.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42329033]Self determination is a right.[/QUOTE] Tell me where I was denying that? You're dancing around the key issue of how this will affect Great Britain as whole.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328980]Yet the vast bulk of the population lives in the Lowlands and have spoken English since the middle ages. There have been varying dialects but they constitute a minority of the population and do not justify independence.[/QUOTE] I was never saying they do, there are other reasons to justify that. What they do constitute though, is a rebuttal to the "Everyone's just English anyway!" comment. And the majority of the population was a bit more evenly spread across the country until the Highland Clearances and Industrialisation.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;42329105]I was never saying they do, there are other reasons to justify that. What they do constitute though, is a rebuttal to the "Everyone's just English anyway!" comment. And the majority of the population was a bit more evenly spread across the country until the Highland Clearances and Industrialisation.[/QUOTE] True, even though historically the lowlands were still the wealthiest and most populated part of Scotland. Anyways, the clearances are over, along with the industrial revolution. Northern Britain is pretty much tamed and the Highlands are empty. In fact the Highlands are still depopulating, many of the villages up there are gradually having homes sold as holiday homes or second houses, whilst the original occupants leave. The population drops, and local activity ceases. At least this is the case for many villages I have visited in the Highlands (Killin being my favorite). The Lowlands are pretty much more of a loft extension of England than anything else. [editline]27th September 2013[/editline] Also I would have preferred it if the referendum were held when Labour was in power.

[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;42329050]Tell me where I was denying that? You're dancing around the key issue of how this will affect Great Britain as whole.[/QUOTE] You're saying they shouldn't get self determination because people outside of them won't like it.

My granddad (or my uncle) has (or had) a house up in scotland.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42329158]You're saying they shouldn't get self determination because people outside of them won't like it.[/QUOTE] No. What I'm saying is that the SNP are trying to get people to vote out of a silly sense of patriotism rather than inspecting the facts and effects of independence. I'm also saying that this is an issue that transcends Scotland, it affects the United Kingdom as a whole and should not be treated lightly.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42329147]True, even though historically the lowlands were still the wealthiest and most populated part of Scotland. Anyways, the clearances are over, along with the industrial revolution. Northern Britain is pretty much tamed and the Highlands are empty. In fact the Highlands are still depopulating, many of the villages up there are gradually having homes sold as holiday homes or second houses, whilst the original occupants leave. The population drops, and local activity ceases. At least this is the case for many villages I have visited in the Highlands (Killin being my favorite). The Lowlands are pretty much more of a loft extension of England than anything else. [editline]27th September 2013[/editline] Also I would have preferred it if the referendum were held when Labour was in power.[/QUOTE] There is also a strong inverse trend occurring. A lot of people taking up crofting and moving out to the Highlands and Islands. Of course the Highlands will never be vastly populated, they can't support lots people wanting to live modern lifestyles without some major infrastructural changes, but they're not the wasteland you make them out to be.

[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;42329198]No. What I'm saying is that the SNP are trying to get people to vote out of a silly sense of patriotism rather than inspecting the facts and effects of independence. I'm also saying that this is an issue that transcends Scotland, it affects the United Kingdom as a whole and should not be treated lightly.[/QUOTE] In matters of self determination, regardless of whether the people are being 'tricked' into it or not, how it affects other nations is irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;42329233]In matters of self determination, regardless of whether the people are being 'tricked' into it or not, how it affects other nations is irrelevant.[/QUOTE] But this effects local and national economies. A Scottish employee hired by an English company could potentially lose earnings or pensions due to cross border complications. Let's take a quick look at the rail companies as an example. [quote]7.3) There are obvious, serious implications for all workers in Scotland who are members of defined benefit schemes whose schemes’ would become cross-border schemes on separation. However, the position of the RPS may be more problematic. Many rail workers have legal protections covering their rights to belong to the RPS contained in the Railways Act 1993 and The Railway Pensions (Protection & Designation of Schemes) Order 1994. Furthermore, the RPS is a shared cost scheme, with its rules stipulating a contribution split in proportion 60% employer / 40% employee. Cross border pension schemes are more expensive to run because they have to undergo an actuarial valuation annually instead of every three years. More important is the very short time frame within which scheme deficits must be corrected. Sections of the RPS rail workers currently belong to have no Crown guarantee. They are private sector schemes, subject to normal pensions regulation. Currently if a section is in deficit, a deficit recovery plan must be agreed and it is not uncommon for this to be done over a (deficit recovery) period of ten to fifteen years. TSSA and the other trade unions have a good record of working constructively with employers in dealing with such problems. Having to eliminate deficits within only two years could mean making swingeing cuts to member benefits and/or huge increases to their contributions using the 40/60 formula. Time constraints imposed by cross border pension regulation would undermine the consensual process for reaching agreement. At least 60% of this funding will need to come from industry employers at a time when it is under pressure to cut costs, including the cash support for ScotRail that has increased by 37% since 2009 to £305 million. In addition to the named employers in the table in paragraph 1.3 above there are a dozen or so other employers covering various industry activities (maintenance, signaling, telecommunications, consultancies etc.) where TSSA has members employed in both Scotland and in England & Wales. Many of these already have pension deficit problems that can only be exacerbated if they became cross border schemes.[/quote] [URL="http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmscotaf/writev/ref/m01.htm"]Source[/URL] [quote]ASLEF believes that Scottish independence could open a Pandora’s box in regard to cross-border rail services. The franchising system in the UK means it is difficult to find comparators elsewhere in Europe. Duplication of both services and regulators may well lead to higher costs and thus bigger bills for the taxpayer for very little benefit in terms of service. It could also negatively affect rail freight. There will also be an issue of the validity of Government choosing franchises that will run in another independent country over which it has no legitimacy. The effect on staff must also be considered. ASLEF believes that there will be many difficult challenges if Scotland becomes an independent country. The first and most obvious issue being the effect it will have on cross-border franchises. East Coast, West Coast, CrossCountry and TransPennine Express are vital services within Scotland but will ultimately be picked by a Government that has no representatives or jurisdiction in Scotland.[/quote] [URL="http://www.aslef.org.uk/files/135280/FileName/ImpactofaseparateScotlandonexistingandfuturecross....pdf"]Source[/URL] These factors cannot be ignored because the affect an independent Scotland as well as the UK. In this case, you can't say that the effects on other countries are irrelevant. [editline]27th September 2013[/editline] Dismantling a 300 year old economically intertwined union is incredibly difficult.

[QUOTE=Craigewan;42329232]There is also a strong inverse trend occurring. A lot of people taking up crofting and moving out to the Highlands and Islands. Of course the Highlands will never be vastly populated, they can't support lots people wanting to live modern lifestyles without some major infrastructural changes, but they're not the wasteland you make them out to be.[/QUOTE] Of course, yet with the Highlands having so few people, and with the population of the Lowlands continuing to grow and become more cosmopolitan (all these Polish immigrants), they will continue to be of little importance. I'm wondering how people like the Polish would vote in the referendum come to think of it.

I'm a Scotsman and I'm quite against the referendum for the time being. However, on the 31st of October I'm going to meet Alex Salmond for my higher Modern Studies trip. I still - regardless of independent status - refer myself as a Scotsman.

so does any of you have bagpipes

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42329442]Of course, yet with the Highlands having so few people, and with the population of the Lowlands continuing to grow and become more cosmopolitan (all these Polish immigrants), they will continue to be of little importance. I'm wondering how people like the Polish would vote in the referendum come to think of it.[/QUOTE] A lot of the people from other EU countries settled in Scotland that I know (A fair collection of german, dutch, polish and hungarian) by and large intend to vote yes. Anecdotal, of course, but I've also seen a fair few articles published here and there on the web by similar people espousing the same views. [url=http://www.greendaniel.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/why-i-say-ja-to-scottish-independence.html]This guy might be one of the more prominent examples[/url]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328625]I have an Edinburgh accent (English with some slight Scots) so do that for my posts.[/QUOTE] No, all posts must be read in Jamie MacDonalds voice, accent and tone. No exceptions and fuck and cunt must be inserted into random places

[QUOTE=squids_eye;42321019]No more than the difference between someone from Newcastle and someone from Cornwall at least.[/QUOTE] Apart from the webbed feet eh?