Tear gas thrown at Occupy Oakland - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Arbieq;32971966]there's also a video of the marine who was shot in the head [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMUgPTCgwcQ[/url][/QUOTE] I wasn't planning on being happy today anyway

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32972150]They shot a marine? That's fucking atrocious, these cops need to be held accountable for things like this.[/QUOTE] It was a goddamn rubber bullet used for crowd dispersion. Overall before people start shouting wolf, I'd like to actually know what the buildup to the whole thing is. I've got a feeling this isn't a WE have empty arms and candles type scenario, but more of a mutual agression. Sure a rubber bullet hitting you hurts as fuck. As far as I can see though, the riot police isn't actually using heavy force. You don't see them going into the crowds and forcefully dispersing or rounding them up. Instead they seem to be relying on area control measures. Yep, there's more to the story. [quote] OAKLAND -- Police fired tear gas at least five times Tuesday night into a crowd of several hundred protesters backing the Occupy movement [B]who unsuccessfully tried to retake[/B] an encampment outside Oakland City Hall that [B]officers had cleared away more than 12 hours earlier.[/B] Police gave repeated warnings to protesters to disperse from the entrance to Frank Ogawa Plaza at 14th Street and Broadway before firing several tear gas canisters into the crowd at about 7:45 p.m. Police had announced over a loudspeaker that those who refused to leave could be targeted by "chemical agents." Read more: [url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/25/BAUB1LLTC9.DTL#ixzz1btEcg9UU[/url] [/quote] [quote] Interim Oakland police chief Howard Jordan said his officers had no choice but to respond with tear gas. The crowd at its peak grew to more than 1,000 at about 8:30 p.m., and two officers were wounded from the paint and chemicals thrown at them. Read more: [url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/25/BAUB1LLTC9.DTL#ixzz1btFSzgJx[/url][/quote] So we have a formerly cleared area which the protesters want back and ample warning about the possible use of teargas.

How did this go from peaceful protests to riot control? Instead of trying to get rid of protests, why not listen to them?

That doesn't make it right. Just because I tell you I'm gonna shoot you if you come back to your campsite thay I kicked you out of, doesn't mean i'm right to actually do it.

A lot of these people have to understand the police isn't a mindless machine of the System used to forcefully subjugate people. There are many factors at work behind the clearing of the area. Their encampment could be infringing on a lot of other people's rights/interests who have all the right to demand their removal. Of course there are a lot of cruel cops out there, but they don't represent the entire force. Most of the officers are only doing their jobs and if they're ordered to fire gas to disperse an angry mob, they do it! What annoys me more than police brutality are people who vandalize government and private property, throw verbal abuse at the police and completely ignore the often multiple warnings given by the police for people's safety and then cry bloody murder and claim to be victims of unprovoked brutality at the first sign of danger.

[QUOTE=wraithcat;32972742]It was a goddamn rubber bullet used for crowd dispersion. Overall before people start shouting wolf, I'd like to actually know what the buildup to the whole thing is. I've got a feeling this isn't a WE have empty arms and candles type scenario, but more of a mutual agression. Sure a rubber bullet hitting you hurts as fuck. As far as I can see though, the riot police isn't actually using heavy force. You don't see them going into the crowds and forcefully dispersing or rounding them up. Instead they seem to be relying on area control measures. Yep, there's more to the story. So we have a formerly cleared area which the protesters want back and ample warning about the possible use of teargas.[/QUOTE] Impossible. Everybody knows the protesters are just polite schoolmarms looking for help getting back on their feet, and wouldn't even raise a finger in anger. The police are clearly just bloodthirsty animals that were hired from the defunct Republican Guard.

[QUOTE=Wilford Brimley;32971219]if you ask people repeatedly to leave and they are not and normal separation tactics aren't working, there's pretty much only a few things left to do.[/QUOTE] Yeah but that's not the point. They just decided they didn't want people to protest. That's the same in Africa. Only difference is that they are not using live rounds here. Supression none the less

[QUOTE=Rombishead;32971485]Yeah people in large numbers who don't move totally deserve to be tear gassed instead of having some type of official come out and talk with them about why they are there in the first place. Totally wouldn't make them more enraged and more likely to commit a crime.[/QUOTE] One: People in large numbers can literally shut down streets. And while that's not the end of the world, it can be bad for commerce, and businesses (large and small) near and in the protest area. Two: Tear gas will incapacitate the fuck out of you. You can try to be an internet tough guy all you want, but only full NBC or MOPP gear will actually protect you. A gasmask won't cut it. It will singe your skin, and if you've never felt one, chemical burns are very, very obnoxious. On the off chance you get it in your eyes or lungs, you'll be blind and coughing like an asthmatic in seconds. People won't become 'enraged and more likely to commit a crime', they'll panic and run.

[QUOTE=Ridge;32973042]Impossible. Everybody knows the protesters are just polite schoolmarms looking for help getting back on their feet, and wouldn't even raise a finger in anger. The police are clearly just bloodthirsty animals that were hired from the defunct Republican Guard.[/QUOTE] I'm aware it was a rubber bullet, but you can't honestly look at that and say "You know what, it's tough out in the field, these protesters are just jobless crazies anyway".

[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E89468100000578-420_964x493.jpg[/img] There is [I]no[/I] doubt in my mind that this was [I]absolutely[/I] justified. You'd have to be [I]crazy[/I] to think that what happened was somehow [I]wrong[/I].

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;32973715][img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E89468100000578-420_964x493.jpg[/img] There is [I]no[/I] doubt in my mind that this was [I]absolutely[/I] justified. You'd have to be [I]crazy[/I] to think that what happened was somehow [I]wrong[/I].[/QUOTE] Now that's gotta be sarcasm.

[QUOTE=Doom14;32973296]One: People in large numbers can literally shut down streets. And while that's not the end of the world, it can be bad for commerce, and businesses (large and small) near and in the protest area. Two: Tear gas will incapacitate the fuck out of you. You can try to be an internet tough guy all you want, but only full NBC or MOPP gear will actually protect you. A gasmask won't cut it. It will singe your skin, and if you've never felt one, chemical burns are very, very obnoxious. On the off chance you get it in your eyes or lungs, you'll be blind and coughing like an asthmatic in seconds. People won't become 'enraged and more likely to commit a crime', they'll panic and run.[/QUOTE] Yeah no one would be angry if that happened to them.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32971390]I'm sure the unemployed and destitute just riot "for the hell of it". I used to live near Oakland, let me tell you, they are in such bad shape. These people have every right to be protesting out there.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry what I said then. It just seems like they're joining the rest of the world with all these riots.

[QUOTE=sami-elite;32973215]Yeah but that's not the point. They just decided they didn't want people to protest. That's the same in Africa. Only difference is that they are not using live rounds here. Supression none the less[/QUOTE] Are you sure they just decided to do it? What if the protesters created massive issues for the people living in the area, what if they were on private property, what if they actually got violent in some cases. Keep in mind, the standard doctrine of rights is two fold. Standardly you have two sets of rights. Unlimited - life, a few others etc With limitations - usually limited by the rights of others. If they conflict you need someone to tell you who's right is currently stronger. The other party is then usually asked to leave, removed or whatever else. It's why, even though you have a freedom of expression, you can't create excessive noise past certain hours and other stuff. [QUOTE=BurningPlayd0h;32973788]Yeah no one would be angry if that happened to them.[/QUOTE] Teargas is used as a crowd control device. Sure they might be pissed, but later. When you get hit by teargas you don't have the will to be violent or pissed. You just want it to be over already or get out. That's essentially the case with most crowd control devices.

Was it a peaceful protest or an angry riot?

[QUOTE=Recurracy;32973866]I'm sorry what I said then. It just seems like they're joining the rest of the world with all these riots.[/QUOTE] Oakland is a very poor part of California, and that says a lot given how much in debt California already is. [editline]26th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;32973878]Was it a peaceful protest or an angry riot?[/QUOTE] I talked to some folks who went, and as far as I know the police kicked them out since the president was going to be going to a few places to get campaign dollars, starting in San Francisco. After they kicked them out, they tried to come back a while later, only to be faced with police in riot gear.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32973895]Oakland is a very poor part of California, and that says a lot given how much in debt California already is. [editline]26th October 2011[/editline] I talked to some folks who went, and as far as I know the police kicked them out since the president was going to be going to a few places to get campaign dollars, starting in San Francisco. After they kicked them out, they tried to come back a while later, only to be faced with police in riot gear.[/QUOTE] It all seems a bit excessive if that was the case, if they wanted to prevent them from going into that area so much they could have just formed a police wall.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32973930]It all seems a bit excessive if that was the case, if they wanted to prevent them from going into that area so much they could have just formed a police wall.[/QUOTE] You'd be surprised, from what I recall the officers in Oakland aren't exactly known for subtlety.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;32973715][img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E89468100000578-420_964x493.jpg[/img] There is [I]no[/I] doubt in my mind that this was [I]absolutely[/I] justified. You'd have to be [I]crazy[/I] to think that what happened was somehow [I]wrong[/I].[/QUOTE] You do realize that looks worse than it actually is... Right? Also, teargas does no damage at all to people, kind of like hot sauce, it burns then goes away. Only a lot worse.

[QUOTE=Jetblack357;32974061]You do realize that looks worse than it actually is... Right? Also, teargas does no damage at all to people, kind of like hot sauce, it burns then goes away. Only a lot worse.[/QUOTE] That's from a rubber bullet most likely.

I am all for peaceful, until they start lobbing tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters who aren't rioting. This would be the time to riot. Hell this is beyond the time to riot, this is the point where you pick up rifles and shoot back at cops with live ammo. You do NOT shoot at peaceful people with rubber bullets. Even when you DO employ rubber ammunition, you use them like beanbag rounds, you NEVER AIM FOR THE FACE OR TORSO. And yet look at those head wounds. The cops are [I]trying to kill people[/I]. EDIT: Also sounds like they are lobbing flash bangs. Also incredibly dangerous in a crowd. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=player_embedded[/media] About 40 seconds in, someone is on the ground and people return to help the injured person up. The cops toss multiple flash bangs directly at the group.

There are a few bad apples but I don't think the police force as a whole are trying to kill people. They are using "non lethal" weapons which for the most part are just that. People can get injured. People can even get fatally injured. But if the cops really wanted to kill people they would.

[QUOTE=GunFox;32974143]I am all for peaceful, until they start lobbing tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters who aren't rioting. This would be the time to riot. Hell this is beyond the time to riot, this is the point where you pick up rifles and shoot back at cops with live ammo. You do NOT shoot at peaceful people with rubber bullets. Even when you DO employ rubber ammunition, you use them like beanbag rounds, you NEVER AIM FOR THE FACE OR TORSO. And yet look at those head wounds. The cops are [I]trying to kill people[/I].[/QUOTE] Because the police are a mindless arm of the System who want to violently suppress the Vox Populi, clearly that's why you're calling for outright insurrection because a couple college students got a bit bloodied. I seriously doubt they were intentionally aiming for the face, you of all people would know rounds fired near the ground tend to ricochet.

I highly doubt this was a "we were only protesting, and they started shooting us!" scenario. there is ALWAYS more to the story, there is ALWAYS a decision process, and there are always other factors to consider here. At this point, the #occupy people are doing little more than making a statment and causing unrelated people to lose their jobs cause they can't get to said jobs cause a punch of pot smoking morons are blocking the streets claiming they're trying to help.

[QUOTE=Canuhearmenow;32974220]Because the police are a mindless arm of the System who want to violently suppress the Vox Populi, clearly. I seriously doubt they were intentionally aiming for the face, you of all people would know rounds fired near the ground tend to ricochet.[/QUOTE] Which is why American police are pretty much ever supposed to use rubber bullets in crowd control. The rounds are ridiculously unpredictable. I am cool with cops doing stuff that keeps human beings safe. That is their job and it is an honorable profession, but once you accept the order to open fire on civilians, that respect ends. I am willing to offer a huge amount of slack to officers, but opening fire on peaceful civilians and folks tending to the injured is fucked up. I was half way through a criminal justice degree looking at a career in conventional law enforcement. Then I switched to wildlife and fisheries management. Looking to work with the national park service as a law enforcement ranger. So frankly I will still likely end up working local law enforcement for several years. Even in full blown war, we don't open fire on fucking medics. Ridiculous. Governments need to be shown that escalating the level of violence against these movements gets people killed.

[QUOTE=GunFox;32974143]I am all for peaceful, until they start lobbing tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters who aren't rioting. This would be the time to riot. Hell this is beyond the time to riot, this is the point where you pick up rifles and shoot back at cops with live ammo. You do NOT shoot at peaceful people with rubber bullets. Even when you DO employ rubber ammunition, you use them like beanbag rounds, you NEVER AIM FOR THE FACE OR TORSO. And yet look at those head wounds. The cops are [I]trying to kill people[/I]. EDIT: Also sounds like they are lobbing flash bangs. Also incredibly dangerous in a crowd. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=player_embedded[/media] About 40 seconds in, someone is on the ground and people return to help the injured person up. The cops toss multiple flash bangs directly at the group.[/QUOTE] You know the police aren't like those evil goons from movies who can die and no one will care about them. They have families and lives just like the protesters and most of them are just doing their job. As for people being hit in the face with them, I think that could just have been a miss targeting by someone who doesn't know how to use them.

Wow that flashbang video is absolutely disgusting.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;32973715][img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E89468100000578-420_964x493.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] All I know is that that dude in black on the left has a wicked earring...

[QUOTE=GunFox;32974251]Even in full blown war, we don't open fire on fucking medics. Ridiculous. Governments need to be shown that escalating the level of violence against these movements gets people killed.[/QUOTE] An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, you don't start fighting back violently for a cause if the other side starts to get rougher, did that work for ending Apartheid or the Raj?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32974258]You know the police aren't like those evil goons from movies who can die and no one will care about them. They have families and lives just like the protesters and most of them are just doing their job. As for people being hit in the face with them, I think that could just have been a miss targeting by someone who doesn't know how to use them.[/QUOTE] "Doing their job" is not an excuse to accept unlawful orders that puts civilians in serious danger. [editline]26th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Canuhearmenow;32974290]An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, you don't start fighting back violently for a cause if the other side starts to get rougher, did that work for ending Apartheid or the Raj?[/QUOTE] What are they going to do? Call the guard? Calling the national guard to perform law enforcement duties never ends well for the government. They succeed in restoring order, but lose the PR war. There are protests across the nation, and if this succeeds in shutting down the Oakland movement, then we run the risk of it happening in more locations with serious casualty rates. Meanwhile if it results in an escalation of violence, then other cities will be less likely to push so violently into the crowds.