[QUOTE=GunFox;32974300]"Doing their job" is not an excuse to accept unlawful orders that puts civilians in serious danger.
[editline]26th October 2011[/editline]
What are they going to do? Call the guard?
Calling the national guard to perform law enforcement duties never ends well for the government. They succeed in restoring order, but lose the PR war.
There are protests across the nation, and if this succeeds in shutting down the Oakland movement, then we run the risk of it happening in more locations with serious casualty rates.
Meanwhile if it results in an escalation of violence, then other cities will be less likely to push so violently into the crowds.[/QUOTE]
And you think that shooting at them will reduce the risk to the civilians? Shooting at them will just cause harm on both sides and devalue the cause of the protesters.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32974343]And you think that shooting at them will reduce the risk to the civilians? Shooting at them will just cause harm on both sides and devalue the cause of the protesters.[/QUOTE]
In the long run? Yes. It will reduce the risk by preventing other cities from trying it.
[QUOTE=GunFox;32974355]In the long run? Yes. It will reduce the risk by preventing other cities from trying it.[/QUOTE]
Unless the police fire live rounds at them, the protesters should not start shooting at them.
At this point, now that protests are happening across the country, government and law-enforcement cannot possibly win a PR battle because the public [I]already hates them[/I] because they're already protesting. If PR was good, we wouldn't be seeing protests. They're trying to contain this and keep the protest from blocking the infrastructure of the city and affecting more people than it already has.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32974086]That's from a rubber bullet most likely.[/QUOTE]
It is a rubber bullet, at worse that guy's stupid ass is stunned. Your head bleeds pretty good if your cut anywhere, fuck, even zits I have popped on my head bleed a good deal sometimes. Its just like the OWS fucktards screaming POLICE BRUTALITY!
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;32974403]It is a rubber bullet, at worse that guy's stupid ass is stunned. Your head bleeds pretty good if your cut anywhere, fuck, even zits I have popped on my head bleed a good deal sometimes. Its just like the OWS fucktards screaming POLICE BRUTALITY![/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, because this was totally not out of line at all, am I right? Just "maintaining the peace" I assume?
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;32974392]At this point, now that protests are happening across the country, government and law-enforcement cannot possibly win a PR battle because the public [I]already hates them[/I] because they're already protesting. If PR was good, we wouldn't be seeing protests. They're trying to contain this and keep the protest from blocking the infrastructure of the city and affecting more people than it already has.[/QUOTE]
What's this? Causality?
So the longer and more aggressively the people protest, the more people are affected by it and could join the protest to further empower it?
So EVENTUALLY, unless these protests are effectively (violently?) dispersed for good, it will keep evolving and might get out of hand?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMUgPTCgwcQ&feature=youtu.be[/media]
[editline]26th October 2011[/editline]
This wasn't justified, the people in this thread saying it was are out of their bloody mind.
here's an overhead view, now will you people shut the fuck up and realize that police brutality is actually happening here.
[url]http://www.ktvu.com/video/29587140/index.html[/url]
[editline]26th October 2011[/editline]
here, more videos you complacent bastards. Have fun sitting at your computer pretending everything is alright.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx036_m6HUA&feature=youtu.be[/media]
[img] http://i.imgur.com/hEcTm.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;32974215]There are a few bad apples but I don't think the police force as a whole are trying to kill people.
They are using "non lethal" weapons which for the most part are just that. People can get injured. People can even get fatally injured. But if the cops really wanted to kill people they would.[/QUOTE]
Actually, they are called less than lethal specifically because they are supposed to be used in cases where you would normally be using lethal weapons. Less than lethals kill, they are NOT supposed to be deployed in a peacefull protest
[QUOTE=Jetblack357;32974403]It is a rubber bullet, at worse that guy's stupid ass is stunned. Your head bleeds pretty good if your cut anywhere, fuck, even zits I have popped on my head bleed a good deal sometimes. Its just like the OWS fucktards screaming POLICE BRUTALITY![/QUOTE]
Just because it's rubber doesn't mean it isn't lethal. You can sustain brain damage taking a round to the dome. Same reason they don't fire beanbags at your chest as they can stop your heart.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32974377]Unless the police fire live rounds at them, the protesters should not start shooting at them.[/QUOTE]
Can't shoot live rounds at a crowd. Cops are, no matter the situation, responsible for the damage their rounds cause.
So the cops either flee and return with different tactics. In which case the protesters can simply disperse on their own terms.
Or the cops open fire on the crowd with live ammo briefly, martyring protesters, and the nation descends on them from every possible avenue of attack. The department involved is legally torn to shreds and sued into oblivion. This would force national media attention and would in turn force the hand of congress to begin proceedings to separate corporations from government. Otherwise they face rebellion proper.
[QUOTE=Arbieq;32971966]There are some really crazy pictures coming out of alll of this
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E8928F300000578-697_964x463.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E89468100000578-420_964x493.jpg[/img]
there's also a video of the marine who was shot in the head
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMUgPTCgwcQ[/url][/QUOTE]
Yeah, about this, is anybody kinda surprised that so many people in Facepunch are actually supporting dismantling these protests?
The amount of Dumbs and Disagrees in this thread -- Guys, it's like you're actually doing the job for the Republicans, and not even getting payed for it.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;32974594]Yeah, about this, is anybody kinda surprised that so many people in Facepunch are actually supporting dismantling these protests?
The amount of Dumbs and Disagrees in this thread -- Guys, it's like you're actually doing the job for the Republicans, and not even getting payed for it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, im not sure whats up with that. Its very strange.
I remember some research being done into about how people can support the current state of things and rationalize like hell even when its detrimental to them was a year or two back though. It would be very useful here if anyone knows what im talking about.
Funny how this never happens at any, just as lawful, Tea Party rally. You know that you have hit a nerve on our dysfunctional society when you are met with tear gas and rubber bullets just for standing around and chanting a bit.
[editline]26th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;32974594]Yeah, about this, is anybody kinda surprised that so many people in Facepunch are actually supporting dismantling these protests?
The amount of Dumbs and Disagrees in this thread -- Guys, it's like you're actually doing the job for the Republicans, and not even getting payed for it.[/QUOTE]
I know, right? You'd think Facepunch was being bankrolled by major corporations AND Ron Paul.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;32974460]What's this? Causality?
So the longer and more aggressively the people protest, the more people are affected by it and could join the protest to further empower it?
So EVENTUALLY, unless these protests are effectively (violently?) dispersed for good, it will keep evolving and might get out of hand?[/QUOTE]
Uh... pretty much, yeah. The protests will end in one of 3 ways. 1) They get what they want. 2) They give up. or 3) They cause such a disturbance that they must be dispersed because they are causing more harm than good.
The protests are blocking streets and inadvertently blocking people from their jobs, so yes they will grow because of it.
Pointing out that many of these protesters are representing other people who cant actually be there, family members, friends, people who are too busy working 2 jobs so they dont starve to death, that one lady who had a bunch of family and friends look after her kids so she could go (multiple people supporting 1 person so they can go to a protest) etc. They aren't "just hippies" as some people here seem to be so quick to generalize them as.
Many people i know who work in certain professions are simply unable to be there or risk being fired, but agree with the sentiment as well.
[QUOTE=person11;32974632]I know, right? You'd think Facepunch was being bankrolled by major corporations AND Ron Paul.[/QUOTE]
Many simply question how many of these people know what they're protesting for.
Of course the main body of the movement has demands and has an organized agenda but there are those here and there who don't seem to have any idea why they're there anyway.
That's what I gather anyway...
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;32975141]Many simply question how many of these people know what they're protesting for.
Of course the main body of the movement has demands and has an organized agenda but there are those here and there who don't seem to have any idea why they're there anyway.
That's what I gather anyway...[/QUOTE]
And you are exactly right. It has grown so much so quickly that there is no unified purpose anymore.
[editline]26th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mattk50;32975066]Pointing out that many of these protesters are representing other people who cant actually be there, family members, friends, people who are too busy working 2 jobs so they dont starve to death, that one lady who had a bunch of family and friends look after her kids so she could go (multiple people supporting 1 person so they can go to a protest) etc. They aren't "just hippies" as some people here seem to be so quick to generalize them as.
Many people i know who work in certain professions are simply unable to be there or risk being fired, but agree with the sentiment as well.[/QUOTE]
I shouldn't have generalized to harshly, I agree. But thats what they look like, no? The bad eggs in the crowd will affect the reputation much more than the good ones.
Being a protester does not free you from law though.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32970999]Welcome to [del]Iran[/del] America, where peaceful protest is met with teargas and riot police[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kopimi;32971193]God forbid people actually exercise their right to organize peacefully and protest the government
If only those police were armed with guns, we'd teach them a thing or two about standing up to your government[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Recurracy;32971345]Are they even rioting anymore to protest against their government, or are they just rioting for the hell of it? Sure seems like the latter.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;32971420]Why not just bomb them.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;32971467]Do I have to explain my post? OK.
Well since you're already stripping people of their rights why not do it Gaddafi style, then fucking lecture the whole world how human rights are important.[/QUOTE]
Shut up
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32975335]Being a protester does not free you from law though.[/QUOTE]Being a part of the law does not allow you to abuse peaceful citizens, who are exercising their rights as guaranteed by the U.S. constitution in the First Amendment.
[editline]26th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;32975449][QUOTE=Silly Sil;32971420]Why not just bomb them.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;32971467]Do I have to explain my post? OK.
Well since you're already stripping people of their rights why not do it Gaddafi style, then fucking lecture the whole world how human rights are important.[/QUOTE]
Shut up[/QUOTE]
Sil is being sarcastic. He even went on to explain that (however poorly) a few posts later.
[editline]26th October 2011[/editline]
In fact, the only one who is wrong in all of that was Recurracy. The other two were being sarcastic.
[QUOTE=Doom14;32973296]One: People in large numbers can literally shut down streets. And while that's not the end of the world, it can be bad for commerce, and businesses (large and small) near and in the protest area.
Two: Tear gas will incapacitate the fuck out of you. You can try to be an internet tough guy all you want, but only full NBC or MOPP gear will actually protect you. A gasmask won't cut it. It will singe your skin, and if you've never felt one, chemical burns are very, very obnoxious. On the off chance you get it in your eyes or lungs, you'll be blind and coughing like an asthmatic in seconds. People won't become 'enraged and more likely to commit a crime', they'll panic and run.[/QUOTE]
I've been locked in a room and had tear gas canisters thrown at me/towards me and I was held back till the entire room filled before I could escape. You don't need full chemical protection set up, a proper gas masks will help. At most you might get some in the pours of your skin that is it. That isn't really a issue at all. Tear gas is just a great chemical dispersant due to the fact it gets in your lungs (feels like shards of glass or fiberglass are in them) gets in to pours, nose (any place with a mucus membrane). Though after I got in to fresh air it only took me a few moments to re-gain myself, the coughing was the worst for me though. I would easily take a face full of OC spray then get tear gassed again. That was just my experience though, we're all different and various people react differently, it may not have effected me as bad but i had fellow officers crawling on the fucking floor trying to get out. I just felt like my neck was going to explode from the violent coughing.
Rest of this post isn't directed to you, so don't worry.
Though as for rubber bullets, Im kinda half and half with them. It is never a good idea to shoot in to a large crowd because of that off chance you miss or the bullet changes trajectory and hits someone you didn't intend to shoot. But they make a good option for other situations, I wouldn't use them in rioting.
Flashbangs are good for breaking up larger groups that are sticking together but ultimately they're used as a distraction device they over stimulate the eyes causing blindness and the sound disrupts the equilibrium. I wouldn't have used them, maybe shoot a few of them in the air so they go off in the air. But throwing them in crowds of people is never a good idea, you may not get shrapnel from the nade, but you can easily get burned. I mean an officer died because one went off and burned him. Same could happen to the civi's.
I personally would have used chemical agents only or got a water cannon - use the cannon to shoot or flood the area, don't shoot the protesters, just use it to push them back slowly. Take the street inch by inch slowly and methodically.
This whole situation sucks though, police gave protesters a lawful order to disperse. The group could have split up and went to a different location. Instead they didn't and forced the polices hand, but at the same time the police used some very violent means - rubber bullets, flashbangs, etc. I understand they have to disperse the crowed, but they should have tried something different that does not get people injured so badly. That marine that got shot in the head (we don't know if it was an accident or not) just shows how bad the situation was. This guy wasn't even responding and was get carried by people he didn't even know.
[QUOTE=Marbalo;32974609]How come when pretty much any event regarding instances of police brutality are met with the usual idiotic response of "it's an isolated case" or "police are just doing their job".
How much more police brutality does there have to be in order for it to actually become an issue that should be addressed to instead of completely ignored, forgiven and brushed off as an "isolated case". Do we wait for them to actually start shooting at protesters? Stuffing tear gas down their throats?
And since when "just doing their job" a valid excuse for anything at all? They knew what they were getting into when they signed up, and they too can make a mistake while doing their jobs.
Im not saying we should condemn the entire police force, of course there are a few good cops out there, but from what I see on viral videos, news, statistics, people in general the amount of incompetent cops heavily outnumbers the opposite and I think it's time to actually take care of this issue rather than pass along every brutality instance as "isolated case".[/QUOTE]
The issue is, that in most cases of "police" brutality you only have one side responded - namely the protesters. And usually nothing but the action of the police is actually put forward and this is then labeled as police brutality.
You almost never also have actual info on how the protest looked before hand, what the protesters were doing, which place they were occupying etc etc.
This very often brings a skewed view of the entire situation and paints the police as servants of the devil and the protesters as innocent bystanders.
Overall in a lot of cases people label as police brutality, none actually takes place. As many actions the police does to detain people hurt, but do not cause lasting damage and are done because a person does not cooperate and the police is trained to detain you quickly and efficiently.
So before you scream police state and who knows what else, try to provide info on the reasons the police was acting in the first place.
Thing is, as all the other OWS movements keep showing up, the movement doesn't actually have official workable goals currently. Their entire current agenda is squating and CHANGE.
I can guarantee you, that as a resident of the area, I would be okay with a day, two maybe even a few of the protests around me. But anything longer would be pushing it and I would start asking for action to have those people removed.
Who'd want to occupy Oakland
[QUOTE=GunFox;32974518]Can't shoot live rounds at a crowd. Cops are, no matter the situation, responsible for the damage their rounds cause.
So the cops either flee and return with different tactics. In which case the protesters can simply disperse on their own terms.
Or the cops open fire on the crowd with live ammo briefly, martyring protesters, and the nation descends on them from every possible avenue of attack. The department involved is legally torn to shreds and sued into oblivion. This would force national media attention and would in turn force the hand of congress to begin proceedings to separate corporations from government. Otherwise they face rebellion proper.[/QUOTE]What are you smoking? If you want to start shooting at cops, you better hope you have enough supporters to overthrow the government, otherwise it's just going to end up with you dead or in jail for murder with everyone going, "Oh wow, I guess they were just a bunch of crazy anarchists after all." Using violence is the absolute last option, and certainly shouldn't be used for something that's just a minor incident compared to the many worse examples from our past. I also find it a little disturbing how you suggest that protesters should start a potential bloodbath in the hopes of creating a few martyrs. Who gets the be the person spending the rest of their life in prison for shooting at the cops? Or the bystander killed in the crossfire?
[QUOTE=GunFox;32974251]I am cool with cops doing stuff that keeps human beings safe. That is their job and it is an honorable profession, [b]but once you accept the order to open fire on civilians, that respect ends[/b].[/QUOTE]
It's not like they have a choice I think, they're part of the government except they don't get to decide about anything. They just do whatever they're told to, and they must.
Can someone please tell me why it's justifiable to force protesters off land when the protesters are guaranteed the right to be there.
And why it's justifiable to shoot protesters with rubber bullets and throw tear gas.
The dove on his shirt is a nice touch.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;32976152]Can someone please tell me why it's justifiable to force protesters off land when the protesters are guaranteed the right to be there.
And why it's justifiable to shoot protesters with rubber bullets and throw tear gas.[/QUOTE]
It's not, that's the point of the thread's discussion.
[QUOTE=Recurracy;32976150]It's not like they have a choice I think, they're part of the government except they don't get to decide about anything. They just do whatever they're told to, and they must.[/QUOTE]They can reject an order if it is inhumane or unjust which these clearly were. Hell, beyond that, their conscience should kick in and tell them not to do that.
Unfortunately, money won out over humanity for them.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;32976177]It's not, that's the point of the thread's discussion.[/QUOTE]
then why has facepunch boarded the republican train and massacred the thread with idiocy
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