[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;47220446]"I think when it comes to German history, we might be a little justified in thinking that they aren't exactly doing thins for the benefit of the French people."
RF isn't the USSR and isn't tzarist Russia. Its far far far from perfect but equally its got a long way to go till its either of those 2. Every country has done terrible things somewhere down the line and holding the culprits children's children isn't reasonable. Its not a rational fear or concern you are holding.[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking about extremely recent history too:
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2004#Russia_and_the_CIS[/URL]
Russia has always had an interest in Ukraine, and this was as true in 2005 as it is in 2015.
It's also been fashionable for Russian leaders to always fucking whine about how the West is doing XYZ, and to never stop fucking whining. If Ukraine joined the European Union then Putin would never shut up about it and people would claim it's under control of the bankers/belgians/jews/americans/etc.
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;47220365]Americans are pro-America, that doesn't mean we love our government no question. The United States were founded on civil disobedience. That doesn't mean we hate our country.
It's fine to love one's culture, but in Russia it's become love the government. Russians should love their culture. Putin is not Russian culture. How can you look at the things that these people are saying and just spout "WELL AMERICANS DO IT TOO!"
How does this not sound like a certain someone from Russia just a couple of years ago? How can you think all of this is fine?[/QUOTE]
Since when was this about culture? I implicitly stated this is about bias, scandal and corruption. I'm just saying, you don't see this level of smear and bandwagoning when it's western military action.
I never said actions were justified because they were being done by both sides, I never said all of this was fine. I'm just saying that if you can't look at a situation from both sides (in this case the civilian perspectives), then you're missing half the picture and lack a fuller understanding. This is made blatant by the assault on karimatrix and alienation he received pointing out that this was a sensationalist, biased, small-scale statistical opinion piece.
[QUOTE=barrab;47220709]I'm just saying, you don't see this level of smear and bandwagoning when it's western military action. [/QUOTE]
yes, you do lmao
especially in FP when Ukraine wasn't even near to becoming a reoccurring topic, it was all about the US being complete bullshit
even fact, for many years it was like that until people started paying more attention to this since the US stopped being so much involved in this wars they were once in
[QUOTE=Te Great Skeeve;47219889]yeaaah but
the west hasn't annexed a part of a country for extremely vague reasons
sooo... I am more inclined to believe the west a bit more on this...
I don't even like the west that much, they do a lot of shitty things[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the West however oddly DIRECTLY invaded multiple countries over similar if not even stupider reasons.
and Americans criticized the fuck out of those wars.
[QUOTE=Ntag;47220324]I've never met a Russian who doesn't genuinely like and support Putin.[/QUOTE]
Chances are you've never met a Russian
[editline]27th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47221072]and Americans criticized the fuck out of those wars.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, where the fuck do you see karimatrix supporting this conflict?
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;47221074]Chances are you've never met a Russian
[editline]27th February 2015[/editline]
I'm sorry, where the fuck do you see karimatrix supporting this conflict?[/QUOTE]
I see many people taking everything the Ukrainian government says as total bullshit as if the conflict they claim is happening really isn't at all and then citing the russian government like they're going to be unbiased or something.
I see people supporting the annexation of Crimea which I can't understand how you could possibly agree with as it was a military action and not a political one. But I guess you're right, I can't read between the lines here. Are you okay with the Russian imperialist actions that are actually being carried out regardless of what you've tried to argue thus far? Just take a moment, as a thought experiment, and ask yourself, are you okay with the seizure of Crimea through military means and the unofficial invasion of the Ukraine and their continued support of the rebel forces there?
But also, you dodged the real point I was making. You say americans didn't criticize those wars as they are this war(which is kind of you admitting it is a war, isn't it), which is factually untrue. The amount of opposition that the Iraq war received, not to mention Vietnam was massive.
Yes, welcome to the side effects of sanctions everyone. They've done nothing but piss off the locals.
[QUOTE=TestECull;47221281]Yes, welcome to the side effects of sanctions everyone. They've done nothing but piss off the locals.[/QUOTE]
Which indirectly implies you're saying "we shouldn't have done shit and let Russia annex land without response" or "we should've responded with our military and started WWIII".
Sanctions is all we got and at least it shows Putin & co that this shit comes at a price.
[QUOTE=Clavus;47221321]Which indirectly implies you're saying "we shouldn't have done shit and let Russia annex land without response" or "we should've responded with our military and started WWIII".
Sanctions is all we got and at least it shows Putin & co that this shit comes at a price.[/QUOTE]
which are obviously the only 2 options
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;47221371]which are obviously the only 2 options[/QUOTE]
Do tell what else the Western world could've done in response.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47221072]and Americans criticized the fuck out of those wars.[/QUOTE]
You aren't including the americans that were in full support, again, only seeing what you want to see. While many americans might have been against the war in the east, they'd also be for fighting terrorism therefor seeing it as a just cause.
There is still massive support for the US army and why the fuck not? If we support American warmongering, we should support Russia's as well, even if they use different tactics to get what they want.
Considering we kill animals on a mass scale and use metals mined from blood mines in our everyday lives without a second thought (or at least, not enough to stop us), killing human beings to get what you want seems like a pretty acceptable thing to do in this world as long as you have a patsy (even if said patsy is a concept (terrorism, drugs, communism), and so we shouldn't be arguing over who is more evil, we should clap our hands for our great leaders who get their hands dirty and deal with the political backlash so we don't have to.
Not to say we shouldn't congratulate the soldiers as well for their part as the tools of their countries.
I for one am in full support of a world war 3 and a global autocracy for only then will we be able to start uniting as one rather than being separated by invisible walls of culture and visible walls of barbed wire.
[QUOTE=barrab;47221631]I for one am in full support of a world war 3 and a global autocracy for only then will we be able to start uniting as one rather than being separated by invisible walls of culture and visible walls of barbed wire.[/QUOTE]
Well thank fuck that people like you don't get into power any longer.
Listen to yourself. Go home and get your mother to wipe your nose boy.
[QUOTE=barrab;47221631]I for one am in full support of a world war 3 and a global autocracy for only then will we be able to start uniting as one rather than being separated by invisible walls of culture and visible walls of barbed wire.[/QUOTE]
because this has worked before, right?
[editline]27th February 2015[/editline]
"to unite ourselves, we must destroy ourselves"
lol listen to yourself
[QUOTE=Deng;47221649]Well thank fuck that people like you don't get into power any longer.
Listen to yourself. Go home and get your mother to wipe your nose boy.[/QUOTE]
Uhh, I really wouldn't want to be in a position of power. What's wrong with you? Can you only come up with snarky responses to single sentences? All you're showing in this post is a dense inability to actually respond to anything I'm saying by imagining me as a small child (in order to put yourself in a position of power and intellectual ability, oh wise one).
Please, if you so strongly oppose what I'm saying to basically flame me, try to spend more than 10 seconds on your response.
Honestly, don't post walls of irreverent ramblings as an argument. I didn't ignore the Americans who supported it, I did point out however that not everyone was for it like it was argued.
[QUOTE=barrab;47221675]Uhh, I really wouldn't want to be in a position of power. What's wrong with you? Can you only come up with snarky responses to single sentences? All you're showing in this post is a dense inability to actually respond to anything I'm saying by imagining me as a small child (in order to put yourself in a position of power and intellectual ability, oh wise one).
Please, if you so strongly oppose what I'm saying to basically flame me, try to spend more than 10 seconds on your response.[/QUOTE]
you are arguing the benefits of another world war
this is what we've come to
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;47221657]because this has worked before, right?
[editline]27th February 2015[/editline]
"to unite ourselves, we must destroy ourselves"
lol listen to yourself[/QUOTE]
So you make up a quote that greatly changes the meaning of what I'm saying and then put those words into my mouth? [B]S M A R T[/B].
History has shown that when democracy fails, anarchy breaks out and through that anarchy comes autocracy, which will break down in its own time to give rise to another form of leadership. This isn't something I want, but this isn't a world in which want gets. It is simply an ideal that I hope to occur and if you think that makes me stupid, please, tell me more. (without godwinning the argument if you please).
ahh i missed that smell of cold war paranoia
[QUOTE=barrab;47221694]So you make up a quote that greatly changes the meaning of what I'm saying and then put those words into my mouth? [B]S M A R T[/B].
History has shown that when democracy fails, anarchy breaks out and through that anarchy comes autocracy, which will break down in its own time to give rise to another form of leadership. This isn't something I want, but this isn't a world in which want gets. It is simply an ideal that I hope to occur and if you think that makes me stupid, please, tell me more. (without godwinning the argument if you please).[/QUOTE]
or we would all just die
because, you know
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlNPhn64TA[/media]
[QUOTE=barrab;47221675]Please, if you so strongly oppose what I'm saying to basically flame me, try to spend more than 10 seconds on your response.[/QUOTE]
I spent 18 seconds on the response, but I'll spend a few more on the next one.
Essentially, you are advocating large numbers of people to be drafted up into a war, to fight for vaguely defined goals, in order to put a global autocracy in place whose purpose is ostensibly to "unite us".
Why would this work? How would it be done? What about opposition? Why should I bend my knees to this autocrat? Who is this autocrat? What makes them qualified? Is it necessary to unite us? What are the list of existing problems? Can we solve them in much easier, cheaper, less bloody, and more agreeable ways?
[editline]27th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=barrab;47221694]History has shown that when democracy fails, anarchy breaks out and through that anarchy comes autocracy, which will break down in its own time to give rise to another form of leadership.[/QUOTE]
What is this? Plato, is that you?
Any sane person wouldn't want or wish for another World War, it doesn't need an argument.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;47221688]you are arguing the benefits of another world war
this is what we've come to[/QUOTE]
its called seeing the light in a bad situation, with every year that passes, a great war comes closer. Rather than the drab radioactive wasteland post-nuclear war, isn't it far nicer to look at a utopia? certainly beats the fuck out of this painful world we live in right now.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47221685]Honestly, don't post walls of irreverent ramblings as an argument. I didn't ignore the Americans who supported it, I did point out however that not everyone was for it like it was argued.[/QUOTE]
It was never argued against, of course some americans would be against a war. There are many of us who don't actually want a war.
I find it interesting that a few weeks ago you posted stuff like "Israel must be stopped from killing Palestinians" and "This is horrific"(to Jordan Fighter being burned alive) and now you are calling for a World war.
[QUOTE=Deng;47221703]I spent 18 seconds on the response, but I'll spend a few more on the next one.
Essentially, you are advocating large numbers of people to be drafted up into a war, to fight for vaguely defined goals, in order to put a global autocracy in place whose purpose is ostensibly to "unite us".
Why would this work? How would it be done? What about opposition? Why should I bend my knees to this autocrat? Who is this autocrat? What makes them qualified? Is it necessary to unite us? What are the list of existing problems? Can we solve them in much easier, cheaper, less bloody, and more agreeable ways?
[editline]27th February 2015[/editline]
What is this? Plato, is that you?[/QUOTE]
With thousands dying every single day and more being born, with massive poverty and suffering in the world and this conveyor belt of life dragging everyone through it, is it really that much of a price to pay for happiness?
Again, we're willing to slaughter many MANY more animals than necessary for us to eat - why? Because we like how they taste and because there are many more where they came from. Death is nothing new to us, the difference between cattle, cats and human beings is sentimentality, which strangely enough lets the whole world suffer far more.
[editline]27th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;47221733]I find it interesting that a few weeks ago you posted stuff like "Israel must be stopped from killing Palestinians" and "This is horrific"(to Jordan Fighter being burned alive) and now you are calling for a World war.[/QUOTE]
It's a matter of the ends, it is horrific to burn someone alive and israel shouldn't be getting away with what it does (and yes that extrapolates), but a world war is so massive and the scale is incomparable.
Think about how many ways the world has changed for the better since world war 2 because of world war 2. All that suffering was indeed horrific, but how we are all better for it.
[QUOTE=barrab;47221740]Think about how many ways the world has changed for the better since world war 2 because of world war 2.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, people realized that there are better ways of solving things than everybody going to war.
Genius!
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;47221753]Yeah, people realized that there are better ways of solving things than everybody going to war.
Genius![/QUOTE]
Sorry, but does that really apply considering the oh-so-many wars since? We're still investing trillions of currency into military technology and recruitment. I mean, nice one for picking out the one thing that supports your argument, but it is a bit bullshit isn't it?
[QUOTE=barrab;47221740]With thousands dying every single day and more being born, with massive poverty and suffering in the world and this conveyor belt of life dragging everyone through it, is it really that much of a price to pay for happiness?[/quote]
You haven't read much have you? ok chum let me break it down for you
Firstly, the world isn't as shit as you think it is. If you think now is shit, just look back 70 years, 200 years, or 800 years ago. People nowadays (even the poorest of the poor) have at least one measurable aspect of life that is a vast improvement over the lives of people in the past. There is still misery in the world today, but this is the least miserable time in human history.
The greatest reductions in poverty, child and infant mortality, hunger, disease, violence, war, and sexism have been made in the past 50 years. The UN development goals (many of which were ambitious) and were set for 2015, have been met with great success:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Development_Goals#Progress[/url]
Secondly, a world war? Why would a world war improve things? Wars do nothing but kill people, destroy infrastructure and material resources, ruin towns, waste resources on the funding of armies, and are a net loss to humanity. Starting a war to improve things is like hiring a kid to smash peoples windows so the glazier stays in business.
[QUOTE=barrab;47221770]Sorry, but does that really apply[/QUOTE]
Yes.
[QUOTE]We're still investing trillions of currency into military technology and recruitment.[/QUOTE]
Do you think the military only serves for war? lol
[QUOTE=Deng;47221777]You haven't read much have you? ok chum let me break it down for you
Firstly, the world isn't as shit as you think it is. If you think now is shit, just look back 70 years, 200 years, or 800 years ago. People nowadays (even the poorest of the poor) have at least one measurable aspect of life that is a vast improvement over the lives of people in the past. There is still misery in the world today, but this is the least miserable time in human history.
The greatest reductions in poverty, child and infant mortality, hunger, disease, violence, war, and sexism have been made in the past 50 years. The UN development goals (many of which were ambitious) and were set for 2015, have been met with great success:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Development_Goals#Progress[/url]
Secondly, a world war? Why would a world war improve things? Wars do nothing but kill people, destroy infrastructure and material resources, ruin towns, waste resources on the funding of armies, and are a net loss to humanity. Starting a war to improve things is like hiring a kid to smash peoples windows so the glazier stays in business.[/QUOTE]
And yet climate change is on the rise, blood mines and sweatshop environments still operate on a mass scale, chemical weapons are being used almost every week without consequence, corruption is rampant.
It's a really nice argument you have there saying things are getting better therefore there is no need for reform, but that is not looking at much of a bigger picture is it? As the population increases, balance is lost. It won't be much of a life for chinese workers mass producing protein vitamin pills working in 53 degree rooms with 6000 other people doing the exact same thing, while we sit at home playing on our Steam boxes, waiting for a good moment to change the thermostat.
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