Latvia to forbid Soviet symbolics for the upcoming 9th of May - Polidicks

[QUOTE=overpain;40281257] Also, about 500 000 Lithuanians were sent to gulags, most of them died. How is it not a genocide.[/QUOTE] Because being sent to gulag = genocide.

[QUOTE=overpain;40281141]Tell me this, if soviet symbolism shouldn't be banned, why should nazi symbolism should?[/QUOTE] I don't support banning either, I would support education about the two systems (which seems already pretty well covered in western history education) and instead of demonizing the systems, keeping them as reminders what can happen when societies put ideologies over human life. As it stands the modern nations that in the past swore to not let things like Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany or Soviet Union happen ever again just keep focusing on the superficial things both nations did (such as the race issue in Nazi Germany) instead of examining how things like blind worship of the military, restriction of free speech/political rights of citizens and putting economic growth before human well-being that made both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union hell-holes that they're depicted as have been showing up again in western countries. What I'm trying to say is that both the Nazis and the Soviet Union are seen as exceptionally twisted and evil societies, something that would be unthinkable to happen again and so they would just ban the symbolism that reminds us of these societies instead of constantly keeping watch that their respective countries don't slowly slide down the same slope. [QUOTE=Azaz3l;40281267]Nazi Germany : 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people Soviet Union : 20 million in the Soviet Union[/QUOTE] Arguing about the numbers of the dead is almost completely irrelevant since both countries have been shown to have done absolutely monstrous things on a massive scale ; both countries were lead by genocidal shitbags (during WW2 that is, post-Stalin Soviet leaders weren't nearly as bad) and the systems were upheld via torture, oppressive networks of secret police and political repression, there's no point in arguing which side was the "lesser evil" here.

[QUOTE=smeismastger;40280130]Those veterans served in the SS Division "Wiking", which was formed from scandinavian, eastern-european and other foreign volunteers. They did not commit warcrimes [/QUOTE] why are you glorifying nazi volunteers? especially when theres loads of proof that they did commit warcrimes by prominent historians...

hmm yes censoring the past and removing history I wonder who else did that

[QUOTE=Azaz3l;40281267]Nazi Germany : 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people Soviet Union : 20 million in the Soviet Union Right[/QUOTE] Soviet apologist, please, soviet union death toll varies from 50 tp 70 million

[QUOTE=Azaz3l;40281267]Nazi Germany : 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people Soviet Union : 20 million in the Soviet Union Right[/QUOTE] Soviet apologist, please, soviet union death toll varies from 50 to 70 million

[QUOTE=Retardation;40281386]. also the Soviet Union is not responsible for more deaths than Nazi Germany. this is a popular McCarthyist myth created by the Nazi party during WW2 as propaganda, and afterwards adopted and improved by the McCarthy administration during the cold war. the actual death tolls of the soviets are massively, ridiculously blown out of proportion to the point where it doesn't even make any sense.[/QUOTE] i didnt know it was a contest

[QUOTE=Azaz3l;40281281]Because being sent to gulag = genocide.[/QUOTE] Because being sent to death camp = genocide Thats how retarded you sound. Most of the people in gulags died.

[QUOTE=overpain;40281389]Soviet apologist, please, soviet union death toll varies from 50 to 70 million[/QUOTE] Source? [url]http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm[/url] [url]http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin[/url] [url]http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Hitler[/url]

[QUOTE=Retardation;40281410] it's not, there's no reason not to correct people on popular historical misconceptions[/QUOTE] except you're both engaging in apologetics which is the most disgusting act imaginable

[QUOTE=overpain;40281479]Because being sent to death camp = genocide Thats how retarded you sound. Most of the people in gulags died.[/QUOTE] Yeah because Gulag's primary target was to exterminate people, for sure. You should learn the definition of a gulag. [url]http://www.arlindo-correia.org/041003.html[/url]

[QUOTE=thisispain;40281495]except you're both engaging in apologetics which is the most disgusting act imaginable[/QUOTE] Im not. I despise both, I just hate when he says that su did nothing wrong while my ancestors literally died because of it. Theres no family in Lithuania which wasnt touched by soviet death machine.

Okay, how about we cut this simple ? It's our country, our democratic representatives.Don't like it, fuck off.Now stop arguing.If we're doing this shit, we got a reason.

[QUOTE=Azaz3l;40281518]Yeah because Gulag's primary target was to exterminate people, for sure. You should learn the definition of a gulag.[/QUOTE] End result was the same. Most camps in Germany primary function wasnt to kill either.

Regradless of you liking it or not, you can't deny that Soviet Union has a place in Baltic history. This just stomps the freedom of speech because people over there are russophobes (over there as in p much whole Baltic area).

[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;40281553]Regradless of you liking it or not, you can't deny that Soviet Union has a place in Baltic history. This just stomps the freedom of speech because people over there are russophobes (over there as in p much whole Baltic area).[/QUOTE] No shit, 200 years of russian opression. To retardation : Im on phone now, but I promise to post source tomorrow.

the soviet union and nazi germany were both imperialistic authoritarian regimes responsible for a lot of heinous shit, stop arguing over minutia and semantics because this isnt a fucking competition a lot of lithuanians, both jewish and gentile, were slaughtered in lithuania but the politics played with the word genocide is a nationalistic one. a lot of anti-semitism is used when talking about the soviet union, and usually that jumps pretty much into the holocaust denial boat.

[QUOTE=Rapist;40281079]hey, estonia does not whine.[/QUOTE] Wow, of course it does. Read up Delfi with Jaak Allik.

[QUOTE=overpain;40281540]End result was the same. Most camps in Germany primary function wasnt to kill either.[/QUOTE] yes hello, holocaust denial boat coming into the harbour plz all camps administered by the SS were done so to kill people. Hitler referred to this as a purge.

[QUOTE=Itsjustguy;40281537]Okay, how about we cut this simple ? It's our country, our democratic representatives.Don't like it, fuck off.Now stop arguing.If we're doing this shit, we got a reason.[/QUOTE] Hitler had his reasons to commit genocide to Jews, considering your logic that makes it right to do whatever the fuck he wanted in his country. Devil's advocate here.

Anybody in Nazi Germany/USSR who did not fit the following criteria were usually at risk of being murdered by the state: 1. state approved ethnicity 2. state approved thoughts Both USSR and Nazi Germany both murdered loads of people. The USSR just happened to survive for longer so it had extra time to kill people.

[QUOTE=overpain;40281531] Theres no family in Lithuania which wasnt touched by soviet death machine.[/QUOTE] There's almost no family in Russia that wasn't touched by Soviet penitentiary system as well. If one thing can be said about Soviet Union, it's that it really did not discriminate, everyone got dragged through hell, regardless of nationality. Occupied nations got it worse, because well, they were occupied and weren't originally part in that mess. But it certainly was not a genocide by definition.

[QUOTE=thisispain;40281683]yes hello, holocaust denial boat coming into the harbour plz all camps administered by the SS were done so to kill people. Hitler referred to this as a purge.[/QUOTE] I am not denying holocaust. Most of the camp objectives was to kill population from starvation and hard work. Gulag did and was designed to do exactly the same thing. Thats what Im saying. Or do you believe whole 6 million was killed in gas chambers? Most of them died from typhus/starvation.

[QUOTE=overpain;40281746]I am not denying holocaust. Most of the camp objectives was to kill population from starvation and hard work. Gulag did and was designed to do exactly the same thing. Thats what Im saying. Or do you believe whole 6 million was killed in gas chambers? Most of them died from typhus/starvation.[/QUOTE] afaik starving them to death was one of the intents.

[QUOTE=overpain;40281746]I am not denying holocaust. Most of the camp objectives was to kill population from starvation and hard work. Gulag did and was designed to do exactly the same thing. Thats what Im saying. [/QUOTE] No, Gulag wasn't designed to kill because people who survived were actually set free. GULAG system just didn't care if someone dies, its main purpose was slave labour.

[QUOTE=gudman;40281785]No, Gulag wasn't designed to kill because people who survived were actually set free. GULAG system just didn't care if someone dies, its main purpose was slave labour.[/QUOTE] Same for nazi camps, actually. All survived prisoners was released. They were holding them until "end of the war", factually - until death. You can read B.Sruoga autobiography about the time he spent in Stutthof -the book is named "forest of gods". Really show life in camps.

[QUOTE=overpain;40281844]Same for nazi camps, actually. All survived prisoners was released.[/QUOTE] Yeah, when allies liberated the camps.

[QUOTE=Azaz3l;40280513]Actually if you think deeper than soviet propaganda, being a state with socialist economy allowed SU to stand out against germans and launch a counter-offensive. Russian empire was poorly industialised in 1917, switching to socialist economy and forcing mass industrialisation allowed the country to catch up with west and even surpass it in terms of military. Germans would've made it to Moscow fast if Russia was one of these poorly industrialised countries back then. Not to mention soviet idealogy and propaganda that somewhat encouraged soldiers to fight for their home country. P.S I am not for communism or Soviet-Union v2[/QUOTE] At the cost of literally millions of people, and the Kulaks, and the horrible deportations.

[QUOTE=Azaz3l;40281920]Yeah, when allies liberated the camps.[/QUOTE] Lol no, most camps like Stutthof for example had prisoners released earlier than "liberators" or west came. Anyways, Im going to bed now

[QUOTE=overpain;40281844]Same for nazi camps, actually. All survived prisoners was released. They were holding them until "end of the war", factually - until death. You can read B.Sruoga autobiography about the time he spent in Stutthof -the book is named "forest of gods". Really show life in camps.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure people of Jewish origin weren't going to be released "after the end of the war". Diffirence is, Soviet GULAG system released surviving people regardless of [b]ethnic[/b] origin. Some people indeed were there to die, but that's not due of their nationality, but because of how much trouble they were making for Soviet government. Look, I'm not arguing that one nation or another "had it good" or "bad" or even "normal". I feel deep empathy towards all people who were crushed by that horrible inhuman regime that was holding my and your (and many other) countries in chains. I'm just saying it's unfair to call it genocide, unfair towards every other nation that suffered Soviet rule.