[QUOTE]While Russia maintains that the Red Army liberated the Baltic States from German invaders, many residents of the republics put the two occupations on a par, [I]citing mass Stalin-era deportations and murders of the local population by Soviet secret police[/I].[/QUOTE]
So yeah guys, there's a reason these countries wanted freedom. Aside from Stalin, the USSR was poorly organized and corrupt.
Banning Soviet symbols and Nazi symbols will probably just make certain groups more militaristic. It also won't be great for Russian relations when Putin brings back the Soviet Union.
[QUOTE=Retardation;40288798]deaths in gulags - 1.6 million
deaths by purges - 0.6 - 1.2 million
deaths by holodomor - varies
the reason holodomor shouldn't be entirely taken into account is because it was mostly a natural drought that was later on worsened by the soviet authorities, and once it was over, the tragedy was exploited and was used as propaganda against the soviet rule by ukrainian nationalists who claimed absurd, exaggerated death tolls.
this is worsened by the fact that soviet authorities tried to sweep it under the rug, which makes getting a hold of accurate numbers almost impossible because both sides fabricated the death toll to be used in their favor. i'd wait for it to be fully assessed and examined by scholars before leaning towards either side here.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and to make matters worse, those Ukrainians for some reason think that Holodomor affected only them, and not other parts of USSR too.
Why forbid both Nazi and Soviet symbolics in a country with such a complicated history as Latvia is beyond my comprehension. It would only divide the nation furthermore.
Anyway, this thread is a mess. Nobody is intended to agree on anything, people are arguing for the sake of arguing.
Do people actually believe that anyone wants USSR back and works towards it?
Even if someone is, the Russian government certainly doesn't. Because it's idiotic thing for them to do. Granted, our government officials mainly think about money for themselves and their families, and that's precisely what they will not be getting should they try to re-instate Soviet regime.
[QUOTE=Retardation;40288798]deaths in gulags - 1.6 million
deaths by purges - 0.6 - 1.2 million
deaths by holodomor - varies[/quote]
Remember a lot of those are conservative estimates, and from my book on gulags, the 30 million claim doesn't seem farfetched.
[quote]the reason holodomor shouldn't be entirely taken into account is because it was mostly a natural drought that was later on worsened by the soviet authorities, and once it was over, the tragedy was exploited and was used as propaganda against the soviet rule by ukrainian nationalists who claimed absurd, exaggerated death tolls.[/quote]
Bullshit, the Soviet authorities kept requisitioning grain from the peasantry, and left them to starve, and even refused international aid.
[quote]this is worsened by the fact that soviet authorities tried to sweep it under the rug, which makes getting a hold of accurate numbers almost impossible because both sides fabricated the death toll to be used in their favor. i'd wait for it to be fully assessed and examined by scholars before leaning towards either side here.[/QUOTE]
They've been doing this for the past 80 years.
How about we just get one rabid Facepuncher from each absurd side to beat the shit out of each other in a sort of Thunderdome? It'd do humanity a service as well, if either or both die.
[editline]15th April 2013[/editline]
God knows we need less people babbling on about "ooh, but [I]my[/I] favourite brutal, totalitarian hellhole wasn't as bad as yours!"
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;40280032]Exactly
Another funny thing is that in Latvia and Estonia there are seldom, but still quite a few of Waffen SS veteran gatherings. Nobody says ANYTHING about it. To be quite frank, [url=http://rt.com/news/latvia-demonstration-363/]it happened not long ago in March[/url][/QUOTE]
And nobody minds. They can all meet for all I care, as long as they're doing anything malicious they can do what ever the fuck they want.
[QUOTE=Retardation;40288550]except that makes no fucking sense, because the population of the SU was growing exceptionally during Stalin's rule. if we do the math, you're saying that every family in the SU had a close relative executed or sent to the Gulags and nobody gave a shit when in reality, this would spark massive riots, if we follow your made-up statistics.[/QUOTE]
Never underestimate the human capacity for obedience.
[QUOTE=Jakobi;40290222]And nobody minds. They can all meet for all I care, as long as they're doing anything malicious they can do what ever the fuck they want.[/QUOTE]
Yes because supporting nazism is the right thing to do. Whoever still supports nazism or stalin do not deserve to breath anyways.
[QUOTE=Azaz3l;40290501]Yes because supporting nazism is the right thing to do. Whoever still supports nazism or stalin do not deserve to breath anyways.[/QUOTE]
Because if person believes different things than you do he deserves to die?
Golden logic.
Just playing devil advocate.
This thread is full of stupid.
[QUOTE=overpain;40290554]Because if person believes different things than you do he deserves to die?
Golden logic.[/QUOTE]
Way to read my post. So supporting nazis and marching in SS uniforms totally makes sense? Sure.
[QUOTE=overpain;40290554]
Just playing devil advocate.
[/QUOTE]
More like playing the dumb
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;40288300]Stalin can suck a fat one.[/QUOTE]
He died a death he deserved, alone in a pool of his own piss :)
While I would rather see both the swastika and soviet symbols were allowed, I think it's fair to ban soviet symbols as they're no better than what the nazis used during WWII.
But as I said, they should both be allowed, it's childish how symbols have to be banned.
[QUOTE=zugu;40280737]Soviet occupation was the worst, seconded by being a Soviet satellite country, or even just a neighbour such as Finland. People who rated this dumb have no idea what life in the Warsaw Pact was like, either because they lived in the West during those times, or because they weren't born when the Iron Curtain fell.
Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Finns, Romanians, Poles, Czechs, and many others know better. Fuck the USSR.[/QUOTE]
I am from Moscow and I have no idea what are talking about, Russia and USSR were pretty great. Thanks for making all these communistic years so unforgettable and easy for us, Eastern Europe!
[QUOTE=Aman VII;40290787]He died a death he deserved, alone in a pool of his own piss :)[/QUOTE]
I kind of wish that the whole Josip Broz conspiracy was true.
this thread is full of eastern european kids who've been told OMG USSR IS BAD by their (not so successful lmao) parents
and no i'm not pro-USSR
Edit: [quote]Soviet Russia occupied dozens of ex-free countries and made a huge number of slaves from the free people of Eastern Europe and other -stan countries. That's not good in any way you filthy stalinist! God bless America and her people, we should bomb the Kremlin!!!! God bless Obama with his war-helping healthcare and other shit, you dumb commie. Go pet Lenins nuts you filthy communist!!!![/quote]
ok what
[QUOTE=TehMentos;40290816]While I would rather see both the swastika and soviet symbols were allowed, I think it's fair to ban soviet symbols as they're no better than what the nazis used during WWII.
But as I said, they should both be allowed, it's childish how symbols have to be banned.[/QUOTE]
I agree, banning things is not the way to accept what our ancestors have done. It alienates Humanity as a whole from each-other and complicates both accepting and learning from our history. History MUST remain neutral. And I can't quite grasp why people are turning this into a competition. Both scenarios were absolutely horrible, but realistically only one happened, namely the USSR took over instead of the Third Reich, thus making USSR occupation the worst thing that's happened to Eastern Europe.
[QUOTE=qwerty000;40291144]this thread is full of eastern european kids who've been told OMG USSR IS BAD by their (not so successful lmao) parents[/QUOTE]
Your profile suggests you are Russian. That's reason enough to suggest you might've received an identical, albeit mirrored synopsis of the deeds of the USSR. While everyone in the USSR took it hard, Russians themselves among the hardest (proportionally), the hushed voices of the afflicted do not lie. Not many people in Eastern Europe have families completely unscathed by the nightly visits of the NKVD. My grand-uncle was hauled to Siberia with his wife and newborn child, likely with the first waves in the June deportations of 1941. I assume he was taken to a gulag, while my great-aunt and her child were likely resettled in one of the Siberian oblasts. No-one from my immediate or extended family knows what happened to her in any case.
Edit:
Then there's the whole siphoning resources and manpower from our country, wasteful methods with no regard for local environment (culminating in the Phosphorite War in the 1980s, which was as much a stand from the demographic point of view, as environmental).
[QUOTE=qwerty000;40291144]this thread is full of eastern european kids who've been told OMG USSR IS BAD by their (not so successful lmao) parents[/QUOTE]
And there are few russian kids in here who've been told OMG USSR SAVED THE WORLD BUT EVERYONE HATES IT FOR IT, ALSO LENIN AND STALIN ARE HEROES by their brainwashed parents.
[QUOTE=qwerty000;40291144]this thread is full of eastern european kids who've been told OMG USSR IS BAD by their (not so successful lmao) parents[/QUOTE]
Uh, what, my dad made a very successful business (that's making profit to this day) out of trading vodka for bananas with the finns and then selling the bananas in Estonia. (that was in the 80s when he worked on a boat as a crewman on the Tallinn-Helsinki line) So yeah, your point is invalid.
[QUOTE=qwerty000;40291144]this thread is full of eastern european kids who've been told OMG USSR IS BAD by their (not so successful lmao) parents[/QUOTE]
My dad successfuly runs two businesses in the Central part of Riga.Also he was forced in conscription, he has a hate for soviet times and lives the fact that he isn't part of the communist system.Sorry to break it to you, but he lived in Soviet occupied Latvia since birth and all he can say is - roughly "Fuck that"
[QUOTE=qwerty000;40291144]this thread is full of eastern european kids who've been told OMG USSR IS BAD by their (not so successful lmao) parents[/QUOTE]
I live in Tallinn and half of my family is Russian; another half is located in Georgia (my dad's side is Georgian).
Funny thing is, each and everyone of my elder relatives still say that it was better during the Soviet Union. When you think about the inner policies and the general state of the country, it indeed was great, but then there was no prosperity, only poverty. And yet people lived happy. Kind of scary when I think about it - living in poverty and loving it.
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;40293030]I live in Tallinn and half of my family is Russian; another half is located in Georgia (my dad's side is Georgian).
Funny thing is, each and everyone of my elder relatives still say that it was better during the Soviet Union. When you think about the inner policies and the general state of the country, it indeed was great, but then there was no prosperity, only poverty. And yet people lived happy. Kind of scary when I think about it - living in poverty and loving it.[/QUOTE]
People say there was more order in the Soviet Union.
[QUOTE=qwerty000;40291144]this thread is full of eastern european kids who've been told OMG USSR IS BAD by their (not so successful lmao) parents[/QUOTE]
Soviet Russia occupied dozens of ex-free countries and made a huge number of slaves from the free people of Eastern Europe and other -stan countries. That's not good in any way you filthy stalinist! God bless America and her people, we should bomb the Kremlin!!!! God bless Obama with his war-helping healthcare and other shit, you dumb commie. Go pet Lenins nuts you filthy communist!!!!
[QUOTE=Adiost;40293241]Soviet Russia occupied dozens of ex-free countries and made a huge number of slaves from the free people of Eastern Europe and other -stan countries. That's not good in any way you filthy stalinist! God bless America and her people, we should bomb the Kremlin!!!! God bless Obama with his war-helping healthcare and other shit, you dumb commie. Go pet Lenins nuts you filthy communist!!!![/QUOTE]
This post smells like stupid.
[QUOTE=Adiost;40293241]Soviet Russia occupied dozens of ex-free countries and made a huge number of slaves from the free people of Eastern Europe and other -stan countries. That's not good in any way you filthy stalinist! God bless America and her people, we should bomb the Kremlin!!!! God bless Obama with his war-helping healthcare and other shit, you dumb commie. Go pet Lenins nuts you filthy communist!!!![/QUOTE]
Not sure if trolling or really stupid
[QUOTE=Adiost;40293241]Soviet Russia occupied dozens of ex-free countries and made a huge number of slaves from the free people of Eastern Europe and other -stan countries. That's not good in any way you filthy stalinist! God bless America and her people, we should bomb the Kremlin!!!! God bless Obama with his war-helping healthcare and other shit, you dumb commie. Go pet Lenins nuts you filthy communist!!!![/QUOTE]
I AGREE STALEN IS LETERALLY A HITLER
Everyone in this thread who's talking shit or calling Baltic residents nazi symphatizers, read up on the subject before you post.
[editline]16th April 2013[/editline]
Fucking disgraceful
[QUOTE=Jaanus;40293893]Everyone in this thread who's talking shit or calling Baltic residents nazi symphatizers, read up on the subject before you post.
[editline]16th April 2013[/editline]
Fucking disgraceful[/QUOTE]
To whom is this post directed at? Do you support the banning of Nazi and Soviet symbols? Because it is hiding from history, it is counter-productive.
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