Leaked UK government report says Brexit will damage growth - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110463]I personally hope ... that Brexit, at this point, can't be stopped.[/QUOTE] That's all well and dandy for you to say when you don't live there. You don't have to consider the consequences in any real way.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110463]I personally hope the argument finishes one day, that a 2nd referendum shouldn't be done and that Brexit, at this point, can't be stopped.[/QUOTE] Then you should probably start by making actual arguments.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;53110470]That's all well and dandy for you to say when you don't live there. You don't have to consider the consequences in any real way.[/QUOTE] I can see the democratic ramifications if ignored, which is my main concern, outside that, it will effect me little to none. However that doesn't mean I don't feel for the people who will lose their jobs over this, I just believe government action can't be stopped for the sake of those jobs, you don't want a country that prioritises economic well being over the people, especially if that economic well being is going to continue regardless and Brexit is not collapse the country or even hurt it in a major way (reliant on transition/tradedeal), because that just opens the door to your government stepping all over you in the name of economics more than they already do now regardless of whatever referendum passes in the future. [QUOTE=_Axel;53110479]Then you should probably start by making actual arguments.[/QUOTE] Sure.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110499]I can see the democratic ramifications if ignored, which is my main concern.[/QUOTE] No, you don't 'see' them. You're making them up. You have yet to properly demonstrate why having a second referendum would be detrimental to democracy.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110499]I can see the democratic ramifications if ignored, which is my main concern[/QUOTE] The "democratic ramifications"? You mean a bunch of xenophobes and eurosceptics get angry again for a few months or a year or so until they are presented a new distraction by His Grace And Saviour of Mankind Nigel Farage? That sounds okay to me. You mean people lose faith in the political elite in charge? But I thought Brexit was all about getting one over the political elite! Dammit have I been lied to and it was all just uneducated grandstanding? I also wouldn't turn down people losing faith in the Tories because holy shit the Tories are awful. The country voted on a referendum that was badly defined, supported by people who had no actual desire to leave the EU despite campaigning for it for political brownie points, and who had no actual exit plan other than "uhhhh uhhhh we'll tell them we're important!". Perhaps us reverting a completely unguided, unplanned and utterly unreasonable decision will be the "democratic ramifications" we need to show those in power that they should actually think things through if they want to propose them? (also stop wishing for economic ruin of countries you aren't a part of, it's psychotic)

[QUOTE=_Axel;53110525]No, you don't 'see' them. You're making them up. You have yet to properly demonstrate why having a second referendum would be detrimental to democracy.[/QUOTE] So alienating half your population and breaking referenda for the foreseeable future doesn't count right? I know that 2018 is supposed to basically be the year of the loss of trust in institutions, but as a government, I certainly wouldn't want to jump into that sea where you've flushed public trust down the toilet on both sides, even those who support a 2nd referendum. It is ignorant to think the population will ignore that, I mean, I welcome a 3rd referendum because a 2nd one won't even finish the debate.

I'm sorry, is that a demonstration of how a second referendum would alienate people or "break referenda"? Does this post contain arguments that explain your stance? That asking for the population's opinion somehow breaks trust in public institutions? [editline]5th February 2018[/editline] Still looking for them.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110499]I can see the democratic ramifications if ignored, which is my main concern, outside that, it will effect me little to none. However that doesn't mean I don't feel for the people who will lose their jobs over this, I just believe government action can't be stopped for the sake of those jobs, you don't want a country that prioritises economic well being over the people, especially if that economic well being is going to continue regardless and Brexit is not collapse the country or even hurt it in a major way (reliant on transition/tradedeal), because that just opens the door to your government stepping all over you in the name of economics more than they already do now regardless of whatever referendum passes in the future. Sure.[/QUOTE] There are no "Democratic" concerns. Just crying that someone might consider doing something in a way different than your way doesn't make a "democratic" concern. People have spelled this out for you for too long, you're literally as illinformed and as uneducated about this topic as it probably possible to be. People keep debunking everything you say, and all you do is fall back to "You must hate democracy" like a child without an argument.

[QUOTE=_Axel;53110525]No, you don't 'see' them. You're making them up. You have yet to properly demonstrate why having a second referendum would be detrimental to democracy.[/QUOTE] Don't you see that if we give the people a chance to voice their opinion on matters it'll harm democracy?! :downs:

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110559]So alienating half your population and breaking referenda for the foreseeable future doesn't count right? I know that 2018 is supposed to basically be the year of the loss of trust in institutions, but as a government, I certainly wouldn't want to jump into that sea where you've flushed public trust down the toilet on both sides, even those who support a 2nd referendum. It is ignorant to think the population will ignore that, I mean, I welcome a 3rd referendum because a 2nd one won't even finish the debate.[/QUOTE] How would following through with a lie do less to faith in government than actively trying to find the solution that works best for your countrymen? God fucking forbid some politician actually has to do their job and look out for their constituents!

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110559]So alienating half your population[/QUOTE] Except Brexit is [i]currently[/i] alienating >55% of the population, last time I looked at the current approval for it? [editline]5th February 2018[/editline] Like what world do you live in

[QUOTE=SataniX;53110618]Except Brexit is [i]currently[/i] alienating >55% of the population, last time I looked at the current approval for it? [editline]5th February 2018[/editline] Like what world do you live in[/QUOTE] whichever one is most convenient for the "Truths" he believes in

Why do I have this odd feeling that if a 2nd referendum voted leave this topic would be back again. :hammered: Honestly, that is my main concern, how many referendums will it take, in the name of 'democracy', that somehow you guys have faith this won't turn into a protest vote, and that in the scenario it switches places, you wouldn't be supportive of a third if 'opinion polls' move. All you've ended up accomplishing is a continued debate with a referendum again in the future.

Demonstrate your original point or just don't bother posting in this thread.

[QUOTE=_Axel;53110841]Demonstrate your original point or just don't bother posting in this thread.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure you've talked of an educated populace is needed for democracy as that is your view, even if it has never been this way. My view is trust in public institutions is needed for democracy, you take away that trust, or damage it permanently ignoring a perfectly legitimate referendum is not good for the overall health of that democracy. Answer mine, thanks.

You're still not answering the question which was: How does a second referendum take away trust in public institutions. There's an entire post of mine you still have to respond to a dozen posts above, by the way.

[QUOTE=_Axel;53110871]You're still not answering the question which was: How does a second referendum take away trust in public institutions.[/QUOTE] If your 2nd referendum overrides the decision of the first referendum which was approved by parliament, you are asking the public to vote again, how many times, until the decision is 'the right one'. In what way doesn't that diminish trust in public institutions, the government won't even follow through with a referendum, meaning future referendums are put in doubt, regardless of numbers. [QUOTE]But former Conservative minister John Penrose said the UK public had voiced their opinion and to have another vote would be "corrosive" to public trust and lead to "absolute shattering" howls of outrage from the electorate. "We have been given our marching orders. Brexit must mean Brexit. It is up to every red-blooded democrat to accept the verdict...and pull together to deliver it."[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110878]If your 2nd referendum overrides the decision of the first referendum which was approved by parliament, you are asking the public to vote again, how many times, until the decision is 'the right one'. In what way doesn't that diminish trust in public institutions, the government won't even follow through with a referendum, meaning future referendums are put in doubt, regardless of numbers.[/QUOTE] How the fuck is triggering article 50 and negotiating with the EU "not following through" with the referendum? They've been following through for [I]almost two years[/I] and have done an absolutely shit job at it. Is proposing a referendum asking the people if they really want out now that it's clear how Brexit will turn out "not following through"? How much time do you think we should wait before holding a referendum that could override a previous referendum? Because the way your reasoning works basically sets in stone any referendum decision for eternity, which is something I've already said in the post you thoroughly ignored, in case you hadn't noticed.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110853]Pretty sure you've talked of an educated populace is needed for democracy as that is your view, even if it has never been this way. My view is trust in public institutions is needed for democracy, you take away that trust, or damage it permanently ignoring a perfectly legitimate referendum is not good for the overall health of that democracy. Answer mine, thanks.[/QUOTE] Ignoring a "perfectly good referendum" that a huge, larger than the amount that voted to leave, have said "RECONSIDER" to? Damn dude, you are deluding yourself into actively trying to say the most hastily made, poorly thought out rash decisions should be valued because if we don't, democracy dies. You're arguing from a purely emotional standpoint unsupported by any facet of reality. [editline]5th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Boilrig;53110878]If your 2nd referendum overrides the decision of the first referendum which was approved by parliament, you are asking the public to vote again, how many times, until the decision is 'the right one'. In what way doesn't that diminish trust in public institutions, the government won't even follow through with a referendum, meaning future referendums are put in doubt, regardless of numbers.[/QUOTE] Should slavery still be legal then? It was the will of the people, over-riding that goes against that, no? How far do you want to apply this absolutely inane line of reasoning?

I fail to see how having a second referendum will be detrimental to the UK's democracy - a lot of new information can come out in 2 years, and I think it's silly to suggest that voters aren't going to care about what kind of deal they're getting; maybe some voters thought they could get a better deal back then? If the reality of the situation ends up being different, how is it more democratic to NOT let people vote on the actual deal? Like imagine you're asked whether you want to sell your house and the only answer is yes/no - those answers don't cover the "yeah sure I'd like to love somewhere else if the price is right". Making that decision binding no matter the money you're actually offered for the house is downright idiotic. Having a second "so are you willing to sell at this price" is hardly undemocratic. Is it imperative that there is a second referendum? Maybe not, but I don't see how you can go around pretending the will of the people is eternal and should go unquestioned even when circumstances change. Or at least how you can make it out to be less democratic.

[QUOTE=Instant Mix;53109486]broken record here for the third time, don't argue with boilrig. I'm specifically not saying debate because there is no debate within it. How can you not see how shit his arguments are? You aren't going to convince him otherwise, so just save yourselves the favour and either ignore or don't directly respond to him. By feeding him and taking the piss out of him, you're just going to create Tudd V2. Stop, please, I beg of thee[/QUOTE] I'm just impressed that an Aussie (?) apparently knows so bloody much about the UK.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53111221]I'm just impressed that an Aussie (?) apparently knows so bloody much about the UK.[/QUOTE] New Zealander, AFAIK.

Boilrig does raise one good point that I've seen very few concise answers to. If we were to have a second referendum and the result came back 52-48 again in favour of carrying out Brexit, what would we do? Go for a softer Brexit because the result was close? Have a third referendum to say "yes but are you SURE?", or just ignore it and remain in the EU because not enough people voted Leave? Or go full steam ahead? I hope this doesn't come across as "those pesky remainers!!!!", I'm honestly just curious what people think we should do if such a situation were to occur.

[QUOTE=Owlz?;53112343]Boilrig does raise one good point that I've seen very few concise answers to. If we were to have a second referendum and the result came back 52-48 again in favour of carrying out Brexit, what would we do? Go for a softer Brexit because the result was close? Have a third referendum to say "yes but are you SURE?", or just ignore it and remain in the EU because not enough people voted Leave? Or go full steam ahead? I hope this doesn't come across as "those pesky remainers!!!!", I'm honestly just curious what people think we should do if such a situation were to occur.[/QUOTE] If a second referendum voted leave I would admit defeat.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53112349]If a second referendum voted leave I would admit defeat.[/QUOTE] If the British people want to be so suicidal, even knowing everything we do now, might as well.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;53110805]Why do I have this odd feeling that if a 2nd referendum voted leave this topic would be back again. :hammered: Honestly, that is my main concern, how many referendums will it take, in the name of 'democracy', that somehow you guys have faith this won't turn into a protest vote, and that in the scenario it switches places, you wouldn't be supportive of a third if 'opinion polls' move. All you've ended up accomplishing is a continued debate with a referendum again in the future.[/QUOTE] It would only take 1 referendum in the name of democracy. But one referendum where it isn't just the majority, but the super majority that decides. And in the very same referendum the side that gets the supermajority [URL="http://brexitlies.com/"]shouldn't be filled with lies[/URL]

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;53112356]If the British people want to be so suicidal, even knowing everything we do now, might as well.[/QUOTE] It's all financial / left wing / tabloid propaganda controlling it though. Not about 'what we know'. If the 50% who voted leave would stop being so split brained and vote UKIP for an independent UK this would have gone much smoother. Same for remainers if they wanted a remainer party.

[QUOTE=AngryChairR;53112363]It's all financial / left wing / tabloid propaganda controlling it though. Not about 'what we know'. If the 50% who voted leave would stop being so split brained and vote UKIP for an independent UK this would have gone much smoother. Same for remainers if they wanted a remainer party.[/QUOTE] You say, in a thread about the Government literally discovering that the British people would be worse off after Brexit.

Also if brexit needs to happen I sure as hell don't trust may or the tories to do it.

[QUOTE=Owlz?;53112343]Boilrig does raise one good point that I've seen very few concise answers to. If we were to have a second referendum and the result came back 52-48 again in favour of carrying out Brexit, what would we do? Go for a softer Brexit because the result was close? Have a third referendum to say "yes but are you SURE?", or just ignore it and remain in the EU because not enough people voted Leave? Or go full steam ahead? I hope this doesn't come across as "those pesky remainers!!!!", I'm honestly just curious what people think we should do if such a situation were to occur.[/QUOTE] People were sold brexit on a bunch of promises, many of them contradictory. (more immigrants vs less immigrants, globalism vs protectionism, free movement vs no free movement, free market vs no free market) When we have a rough idea of what it will look like, inform people on realistically what it'll look like (ie no bullshit like 350m to NHS, jobs for everyone, free british bulldog puppies for every child) and let people decide if they want to leave or not. As for if we can or not (didn't want to validate boilrig by answering him): We can. The EU want us to stay and Lord Kerr, ie the guy who wrote Article 50, said it can be reversed. The only people saying it can't (as opposed to won't) be reversed are people who desperately want brexit and are misleading people. It legally can be reversed just our politicians are too proud and the brexit hype machine is too strong. Seriously though people voted for brexit coz they were told a load of BS. It's a bit of a coup to: A) Tell a bunch of lies to people many of the promises directly contradicting each other B) Hijack the cause to implement your own agenda (lowering regs, race to bottom) C) Take executive power from the government (ie representatives of the people) and give it entirely to a bunch of [URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/minister-for-brexit-davis-davis-eu-european-union-germany-single-market-trade-deals-unaware-mistake-a7136121.html"]idiots[/URL] D) Use a flimsy mandate from a non binding poll (with less than 52%) to Whip MPs into supporting brexit. E) Try to whip (and publicly shame via media) MPs who want the elected government to have more oversight F) Purposefully sabotage the process so there is no deal (to avoid eu regulations) G) Try to suppress any criticism of brexit H) Despite claiming their mandate came from the public, attempt to deny any further public influence (via final referendum or even mps) It's a fucking power grab man. Those brexit people, the ones who want to lower regulations, standards, make conditions/rights worse for workers; all they have to do is make a pig's ear of brexit and they get their own way. It's not in their interest to do their job well, hench why we have 3 literal idiots for the 3 "Brexiteers". The people will suffer from this negligence. I remind you that most people, even "brexiteers" want the free market and we're probably not gonna get that if these "hard brexit" arseholes get their way. [editline]6th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=AngryChairR;53112363]It's all financial / left wing / tabloid propaganda controlling it though. Not about 'what we know'. If the 50% who voted leave would stop being so split brained and vote UKIP for an independent UK this would have gone much smoother. Same for remainers if they wanted a remainer party.[/QUOTE] Single issue politics is toxic as fuck and lets politicians get away with shit. We don't want that. Eg UKIP are all about leaving EU and other ""patriotic"" bullshit. Lots of working class people support them for this. UKIP policies are very much about privatisation, [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/12/film-nigel-farage-insurance-based-nhs-private-companies"]cutting NHS [/URL], removal of protections and rights from workers. IE policies had for the working class. We won't want that sorta shit. We should be aiming to get away from 2 party politics instead of blindly doddering into it because of brexit lunacy. [editline]6th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Lambeth;53112377]Also if brexit needs to happen I sure as hell don't trust may or the tories to do it.[/QUOTE] It's p much opening the door for TTIP and that shit. [editline]6th February 2018[/editline] What a stupid thing to happen to the UK.