Oh my god, I thought his statements were bad before, but to target the geneva convention and make tall claims that rules of engagement make soldiers afraid to fight is the height of delusional stupidity.
He literally wants to turn America into the sort of backwards shithole they've been fighting against this whole time, good god.
When he first came out and said we where severely hindered by shit like the Geneva convention in the first few debates there where people at my work that thought that made sense. I work a really blue collar job slitting steel. I doubt this will severely hurt him in the nomination process but might hurt him in the general election.
[QUOTE]You are bound by the convention, even if the opposing party isn't a member, until they fail to adhere to the provisions.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't sure how to interpret the last clause of Section 2, but after consulting legal commentaries, you're right there is a "reasonable delay" until the treaty release the Contracting Power from its legal obligation. Having said that, the U.S. still cannot act in contrary to the spirit of the Treaty and must treat their war prisoners in accordance to humanitarian principles.
Also, I would argue that torture is a violation that falls under the [I]jus cogens[/I] doctrine, a norm recognized by the international community from which no derogation is permitted. So it its wrong to say that there is no legal risk of violating the Geneva Convention, even if the other party is a non Contracting Power.
Torture should be a last resort but shouldn't be ruled out
[QUOTE=wystan;50038340]Torture should be a last resort but shouldn't be ruled out[/QUOTE]
Okay, now you're just saying this here because someone said you would.
[QUOTE=Sableye;50037928]This is a man who has never had an ounce of compassion for his fellow man[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to say it's all of them, but most of the people that I know that support him just lack compassion for others. Even my own parents who are diehard Trump supporters are fine with the "go after their families" thing. Shit you not, I outright said "So you're fine with killing women and children." and their response was "Well they do it to us."
[QUOTE=wystan;50038340]Torture should be a last resort but shouldn't be ruled out[/QUOTE]
Torture should not be on the cards - at all. Revenge does shit all, you know torture does not work, people have piled on you with plenty and plenty of information, sources, articles, books, journals, senate inquiries etc to tell you very clearly that torture does absolutely nothing but you refuse to trust the organisation WHICH conducted these events, the very organisation who had the guts to say to the federal government it does jack
We can't go to their level ever, i dont care what they do, putting them in a fire pit, cutting their heads off, using tools to give them electric shots etc does everything nothing but radicalise more and fulfill some sick hunger that you and many people have
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;50038404]Torture should not be on the cards - at all. Revenge does shit all, you know torture does not work, people have piled on you with plenty and plenty of information, sources, articles, books, journals, senate inquiries etc to tell you very clearly that torture does absolutely nothing but you refuse to trust the organisation WHICH conducted these events, the very organisation who had the guts to say to the federal government it does jack
We can't go to their level ever, i dont care what they do, putting them in a fire pit, cutting their heads off, using tools to give them electric shots etc does everything nothing but radicalise more and fulfill some sick hunger that you and many people have[/QUOTE]
To me it's more morally reprehensible to not to do, choosing to do nothing to at a chance prevent another Paris, another Brussels, another Lahore attack is worse through inaction than torturing confirmed terrorists, when you could save hundreds or thousands, to me it's worse to not try.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038340]Torture should be a last resort but shouldn't be ruled out[/QUOTE]
Why? You puppet this in every thread about it but it never works, has never worked, and worse it leads to false information which wastes resources and oh ya, we have the biggest goddamn intelligence gathering system on the planet, what would one footsoldier know that the CIA, NSA, and all of our allies agencies and the agencies of the countries we aid not know?
In the act of apprehending a terrorist we usually find more information than they ever give us through interrogation
[QUOTE=wystan;50038423]To me it's more morally reprehensible to not to do, choosing to do nothing to at a chance prevent another Paris, another Brussels, another Lahore attack is worse through inaction than torturing confirmed terrorists, when you could save hundreds or thousands, to me it's worse to not try.[/QUOTE]
How is torturing a would be terrorist going to stop them from conducting another Paris, Brussels or Lahore attack? In my mind it just makes them want to do it more, to spit in the face of the country, as revenge for them doing that
How is torturing a terrorist who did that going to help solve anything? The best thing you can do is lock them in a cell and toss away the key, i think the only reasonable torture is them living the rest of their lives in a cold, dark, small cell where they belong. Not on a table being poured with water under a cloth
[QUOTE=wystan;50038423]To me it's more morally reprehensible to not to do, choosing to do nothing to at a chance prevent another Paris, another Brussels, another Lahore attack is worse through inaction than torturing confirmed terrorists, when you could save hundreds or thousands, to me it's worse to not try.[/QUOTE]
Can we have you yourself do the torturing then? I'd like to see if you could sit in a dimly lit room for hours inflicting unimaginable pain onto someone else as they scream in agony for you to stop.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038423]when you could save hundreds or thousands, to me it's worse to not try.[/QUOTE]
How, exactly, can you save hundreds or thousands through torture?
Gain intel? But we know torture is a terrible source of intel
Scare the enemy? But your enemy either doesn't gives a damn about what do you do to him, or is going to use your tactics to become even more agressive
Boost morale for your side? Because reducing yourself to the level of your enemy is going to do wonders to potential collaborators. Besides, morale ain't gonna stop bullets, anyway
Can you give us [B]any[/B] real possibility of torture saving people?
[QUOTE=Sableye;50038427]Why? You puppet this in every thread about it but it never works, has never worked, and worse it leads to false information which wastes resources and oh ya, we have the biggest goddamn intelligence gathering system on the planet, what would one footsoldier know that the CIA, NSA, and all of our allies agencies and the agencies of the countries we aid not know?
In the act of apprehending a terrorist we usually find more information than they ever give us through interrogation[/QUOTE]
Torturing low level foot soldiers and couriers would be a waste I agree, it's the higher ups that could yield more.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;50038431]How is torturing a would be terrorist going to stop them from conducting another Paris, Brussels or Lahore attack? In my mind it just makes them want to do it more, to spit in the face of the country, as revenge for them doing that
How is torturing a terrorist who did that going to help solve anything? The best thing you can do is lock them in a cell and toss away the key, i think the only reasonable torture is them living the rest of their lives in a cold, dark, small cell where they belong. Not on a table being poured with water under a cloth[/QUOTE]
They are going to do it regardless, it's about prevention and stopping it before it happens, or at least trying all possible avenues for information collecting, again it should be the last last resort.
[editline]31st March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=T553412;50038445]How, exactly, can you save hundreds or thousands through torture?
Gain intel? But we know torture is a terrible source of intel
Scare the enemy? But your enemy either doesn't gives a damn about what do you do to him, or is going to use your tactics to become even more agressive
Boost morale for your side? Because reducing yourself to the level of your enemy is going to do wonders to potential collaborators. Besides, morale ain't gonna stop bullets, anyway
Can you give us [B]any[/B] real possibility of torture saving people?[/QUOTE]
It's wrong not to try. It's worse to not even try to extract all possible intel and potentially let innocents die.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038423]To me it's more morally reprehensible to not to do, choosing to do nothing to at a chance prevent another Paris, another Brussels, another Lahore attack is worse through inaction than torturing confirmed terrorists, when you could save hundreds or thousands, to me it's worse to not try.[/QUOTE]
Let's put it in simpler terms; its impossible to ever be sure if any information you get out of torturing somebody at all could have any validity whatsoever, since its been proven time and again that if you torture somebody for info, they may or may not tell you something of value, or they, on the other hand, might simply know nothing at all beyond the fact they were ordered to carry out certain strikes by their handlers. And if you persist in torturing them after the fact, it just leads to breeding more resentment and adding more legitimacy to the cause of the other side because 'the kuffar infidels are mercilessly torturing our jihadis for staying true to the cause.'
Lets add on also that a man under duress, to escape further torture, might make up something or worse yet, provide intentionally false information that could lead to an ambush being sprung on investigating forces, if they were told by their handlers to do so in the event of being captured.
I understand the moral dilemma that you have, and I can also understand how painful it is to witness such attacks taking place - but legitimizing torture on anybody is opening up its own can of worms. A show of power is not the same as having the strength of character to not stoop to the same level as one's enemies, no matter what happens. I admit that sometimes good people have to do things other good people would consider bad in order to protect those they care about, but ask yourself this: is it worth potentially becoming the same as groups like ISIS where we routinely start cutting peoples' heads off just to [i]potentially[/i] prevent attacks?
Adding on to this, civilized governments around the world would never stand for it if America routinely began torturing and beheading captured combatants. Especially more so if they publicized such a thing. They're getting flak enough as it is for Guantanamo and the horrors going on there. There would be sanctions out the wazoo, and America would soon find itself more alone than ever at a time when all countries need to stand together against the threat of radicalism and terrorist movements.
[QUOTE=Spastik2D;50038436]Can we have you yourself do the torturing then? I'd like to see if you could sit in a dimly lit room for hours inflicting unimaginable pain onto someone else as they scream in agony for you to stop.[/QUOTE]
If push came to shove yea. I mean it sure is easy for me to say sitting here comfortable on my laptop, but if I knew this person was a confirmed member of a terrorist organization and I there is even a chance I could save some innocent people who's only mistake was being at the wrong place at the wrong time, yea I'd do it.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038452]It's wrong not to try. It's worse to not even try to extract all possible intel and potentially let innocents die.[/QUOTE]
Through torture? When we know it's a waste of time and resources?
By the time you slash all options in the book and all that's left to try is "torture", honestly you're better off just throwing the "higher ups" (Which, as far as I know, we haven't fucking captured in the first place) into a cell, and tossing the key into a river.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038452]Torturing low level foot soldiers and couriers would be a waste I agree, it's the higher ups that could yield more.
It's wrong not to try. It's worse to not even try to extract all possible intel and potentially let innocents die.[/QUOTE]
I'm actually impressed how far you're willing to defend something as backwards as torture, good job.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038476]If push came to shove yea. I mean it sure is easy for me to say sitting here comfortable on my laptop, but if I knew this person was a confirmed member of a terrorist organization and I there is even a chance I could save some innocent people who's only mistake was being at the wrong place at the wrong time, yea I'd do it.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying you'd be capable of living remorselessly with having violently tortured multiple people.
And remember, we are [I]assuming[/I] that the country doing the questions is the US, which has one of the most advanced and powerful militaries in the entire world.
If the world's most powerful nation tries [B]everything[/B] under the sun, except torture, to get a mid-level commander to spill some useful directions and [I][B][U]fails[/U][/B][/I] (and remember, most advanced and powerful military in the world, dozens of years of experience in combat and psycho-ops, backed with the latest tech)...
...then what makes you think that good ol' torture is going to work?
[QUOTE=Spastik2D;50038491]So you're saying you'd be capable of living remorselessly with having violently tortured multiple people.[/QUOTE]
If these were violent people determined on killing innocents, yea.
[editline]31st March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=T553412;50038494]And remember, we are [I]assuming[/I] that the country doing the questions is the US, which has one of the most advanced and powerful militaries in the entire world.
If the world's most powerful nation tries [B]everything[/B] under the sun, except torture, to get a mid-level commander to spill some useful directions and [I][B][U]fails[/U][/B][/I] (and remember, most advanced and powerful military in the world, dozens of years of experience in combat and psycho-ops, backed with the latest tech)...
...then what makes you think that good ol' torture is going to work?[/QUOTE]
Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]Can't hurt to try,[/QUOTE]
Torture "Can't hurt" to try
OK
[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]If these were violent people determined on killing innocents, yea.[/QUOTE]
And you don't think that putting someone through extensive waterboarding or whatever worse forms of torture Trump has in mind makes you as bad as the person you're torturing.
where is the dumb rating when you actually need it, I wonder
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Off Topic" - rilez))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=T553412;50038531]where is the dumb rating when you actually need it, I wonder[/QUOTE]
The funny thing is that the lack of a dumb rating is actually making his trolling more effective. His posts would be a bit less angering if there were hundreds of boxes below each one.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Off Topic" - rilez))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Spastik2D;50038526]And you don't think that putting someone through extensive waterboarding or whatever worse forms of torture Trump has in mind makes you as bad as the person you're torturing.[/QUOTE]
Nope. There is a clear difference in my eyes. We aren't lighting people on fire in cages just for the sake of it, we aren't lining them up and wrapping detcord around their necks for the spectacle, we aren't slitting throats as a form of execution, and we aren't doing anything of this to people who simply disagree with our way of life.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]If these were violent people determined on killing innocents, yea.
[editline]31st March 2016[/editline]
Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.[/QUOTE]
We have been trying it. For years. Every credible scientific study done on the subject has shown that torture is ineffective as a means of gathering information.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]
Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.[/QUOTE]
the point is we do know it doesn't work, because it's been tried a lot already.
[QUOTE=wystan;50038543]Nope. There is a clear difference in my eyes. We aren't lighting people on fire in cages just for the sake of it, we aren't lining them up and wrapping detcord around their necks for the spectacle, we aren't slitting throats as a form of execution, and we aren't doing anything of this to people who simply disagree with our way of life.[/QUOTE]
since we know torture isn't effective, how is trying it just because "it's better than doing nothing" not just torture for the sake of it?
[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.[/QUOTE]
Let's just nuke the Middle East. I mean, maybe it'll have some collateral damage. Maybe it's a morally reprehensible thing to do. Maybe it'll create more problems than it eliminates.
Maybe, but we won't know until we try! Can't hurt to try if it might save some innocent American lives, right?
I absolutely love how Trump fails to realize that needlessly being a cunt will make more people jump ship to ISIS, which is EXACTLY what they want.
Trump is a complete cunt violating human rights and the Geneva convention -> ISIS gets justification for their actions -> more radicals and fringe radicals join ISIS -> ISIS has more resources and manpower and so launch more attacks killing more innocent people -> Trump uses this as justification to say X ethnicity/religion is bad and represses them. -> People are given MORE reasons to sign up with ISIS.
Anyone else seeing a vicious cycle here?
[QUOTE]“We can’t waterboard, but they can chop off heads,” Trump said, referring to the United States and the Islamic State, respectively. “I think we’ve got to make some changes, some adjustments.”[/QUOTE]
"We need to follow ISIS's example"
[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]
Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.[/QUOTE]
We've known that torture is an ineffective method of gathering information for decades if not centuries at this point.
Every time someone tells you this and provides a citation you go off on a tirade about how "hurr the CIA clearly just says this to mislead the public" or "B-but our forms of torture aren't as bad as ISIS's!"
How about you provide some citations for the effectiveness of torture or just concede your argument since you cant actually justify your beliefs.
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