Trump calls Geneva Conventions 'the problem' - Polidicks

I hope somebody is collecting all the stupid shit Trump is saying and confronts supporters with all of it.

Geneva doesn't apply unless a state you are fighting are combatants of a nation, ISIS, for example, does not fall under this. Terrorism does not fall under it, either. Besides, most nations don't adhere completely to the geneva convention.

[QUOTE=wystan;50038423]To me it's more morally reprehensible to not to do, choosing to do nothing to at a chance prevent another Paris, another Brussels, another Lahore attack is worse through inaction than torturing confirmed terrorists, when you could save hundreds or thousands, to me it's worse to not try.[/QUOTE] You don't understand, your shortsightedness is at play again, a prevalent theme in your posts. [B]torture kills more Americans than it saves[/B] Even if you prevent a Paris with your torture (which won't happen btw, since IIRC there's never been an instance where torture has actually provided useful information), the fact is that ISIS and Al-Qaeda use [B]the torture performed by the united states[/B] as one of their main recruiting tools, and thus your torturing people has led to more American deaths than it has saved. Though this doesn't matter to you anyway, since you're find with more than 40 000 Americans dying because you don't want them to have healthcare. [editline]31st March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;50038543]Nope. There is a clear difference in my eyes. We aren't lighting people on fire in cages just for the sake of it, we aren't lining them up and wrapping detcord around their necks for the spectacle, we aren't slitting throats as a form of execution, and we aren't doing anything of this to people who simply disagree with our way of life.[/QUOTE] ISIS isn't lighting people on fire or drowning them "for the sake of it" you idiot. They're doing it [B]so that you choose to torture them[/B].

[QUOTE=wystan;50038543]Nope. There is a clear difference in my eyes. We aren't lighting people on fire in cages just for the sake of it, we aren't lining them up and wrapping detcord around their necks for the spectacle, we aren't slitting throats as a form of execution, and we aren't doing anything of this to people who simply disagree with our way of life.[/QUOTE] Dude the biggest issue with torture is the fact that it [I]DOES NOT WORK. THE CIA HAS SAID THAT IT [U][B]DOES NOT WORK[/B][/U][/I] it just doesn't work! That, at the end of the day, is the biggest issue here. Its total non-functioning at producing results. THAT is why it is barbaric. Because it doesn't work. Above all else, above all other moral qualms, it just doesn't produce results.

[QUOTE=Kljunas;50038878]"We need to follow ISIS's example"[/QUOTE] I don't get this. He's not saying that the US should also chop heads. He said "some changes". I'm not taking either side here, but it annoys me greatly how basically everyone on this forum has this "hollier than thou" attidute, like shown here: [QUOTE=Limed00d;50038484]I'm actually impressed how far you're willing to defend something as backwards as torture, good job.[/QUOTE]

If not advocating torture is me being "holier-than-thou" then im completely fine with that tbh

actually I mixed up that saying :v:

[QUOTE=phygon;50039318]Dude the biggest issue with torture is the fact that it [I]DOES NOT WORK. THE CIA HAS SAID THAT IT [U][B]DOES NOT WORK[/B][/U][/I] it just doesn't work! That, at the end of the day, is the biggest issue here. Its total non-functioning at producing results. THAT is why it is barbaric. Because it doesn't work. Above all else, above all other moral qualms, it just doesn't produce results.[/QUOTE] [B]even if it did work[/B] there's the problem I keep mentioning. Like if your main motivation is to "prevent another Paris or 9/11" or "To save as many lives as possible" then Wystan, you should be [B]categorically[/B] against torture. "[URL="http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Former_interrogator_speaks_out_against_torture_1204.html"]And even if you do get reliable information, you’re able to stop a terrorist attack, al Qaeda’s then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members.[/URL]" "[URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/torture-may-have-slowed-h_n_858642.html"]They don’t want to talk about the long term consequences that cost the lives of Americans…. The way the U.S. treated its prisoners “was al-Qaeda’s number-one recruiting tool and brought in thousands of foreign fighters who killed American soldiers.[/URL]" "[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/29/AR2009052901560.html"]Former counter-terrorism czar Richard A. Clarke says that America’s indefinite detention without trial and abuse of prisoners is a leading Al Qaeda recruiting tool[/URL]" [URL="http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com.ee/2009/05/one-of-militarys-top-interrogators-says.html"]“Torture does not save lives . . . And the reason why is that our enemies use it, number one, as a recruiting tool…These same foreign fighters who came to Iraq to fight because of torture and abuse….literally cost us hundreds if not thousands of American lives.”[/URL] Like I'm a patient man when it comes to many subjects, but seeing a person defend the use of torture under [B]any[/B] circumstance, pretending that it's "to save American lives" is one of the things that ticks me off, just as bad as 9/11 truthers. You do not care about saving a single American life. If you did, you'd be voting for Sanders. (you being Wystan ofc)

[QUOTE=wystan;50038543]Nope. There is a clear difference in my eyes. We aren't lighting people on fire in cages just for the sake of it, we aren't lining them up and wrapping detcord around their necks for the spectacle, we aren't slitting throats as a form of execution, and we aren't doing anything of this to people who simply disagree with our way of life.[/QUOTE] CIA says it's a waste of time. Torture and abuse of POWs let's terrorists recruit more to their cause. The information is out there, and has been presented in this thread, so you can drop your thin veil of "doing it to save people". Why don't you tell us why you [I]really[/I] want torture to be a thing again?

[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.[/QUOTE] We've tried it for hundreds of years before finally realising that it's awful and gives bad intel, and makes the enemy hate you even more and gives them propaganda to recruit more people.

I don't get how anyone can support torture after America's foremost torturers outright said 'This doesn't work, it doesn't give us useful information, please stop asking us to do this'. How the [i]fuck[/i] do you rationalize doing something when the experts in that field who carry it out tell you it doesn't work? Do you think you know better than the people who literally did it for a living? Do you think they're [i]trying[/i] to make their own jobs obsolete?

no trump fuck off just no fuck off

[QUOTE=phygon;50039318]Dude the biggest issue with torture is the fact that it [I]DOES NOT WORK. THE CIA HAS SAID THAT IT [U][B]DOES NOT WORK[/B][/U][/I] it just doesn't work! That, at the end of the day, is the biggest issue here. Its total non-functioning at producing results. THAT is why it is barbaric. Because it doesn't work. Above all else, above all other moral qualms, it just doesn't produce results.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=catbarf;50039485]I don't get how anyone can support torture after America's foremost torturers outright said 'This doesn't work, it doesn't give us useful information, please stop asking us to do this'. How the [i]fuck[/i] do you rationalize doing something when the experts in that field who carry it out tell you it doesn't work? Do you think you know better than the people who literally did it for a living? Do you think they're [i]trying[/i] to make their own jobs obsolete?[/QUOTE] No, don't worry, Wystan has explained this before: the CIA is lying about torture not working to improve their public relations so that people don't care as much that they torture people...

[QUOTE=catbarf;50039485]I don't get how anyone can support torture after America's foremost torturers outright said 'This doesn't work, it doesn't give us useful information, please stop asking us to do this'. How the [i]fuck[/i] do you rationalize doing something when the experts in that field who carry it out tell you it doesn't work? Do you think you know better than the people who literally did it for a living? Do you think they're [i]trying[/i] to make their own jobs obsolete?[/QUOTE] no but the CIA could be lying about the efficiency of torture to save face though! which is why we should trust them to torture all the right people and not ever lie about it to save face! because they're trustworthy and also complete liars at the same time or something? i don't even know! Trump 2016!

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;50039587]No, don't worry, Wystan has explained this before: the CIA is lying about torture not working to improve their public relations so that people don't care as much that they torture people...[/QUOTE] "I do not trust the CIA in saying that torture is not effective. I Trust the CIA in torturing american citizens without any process of law" I have never seen a clearer example of double-think

[QUOTE=wystan;50038452]Torturing low level foot soldiers and couriers would be a waste I agree, it's the higher ups that could yield more.[/QUOTE] nah they couldnt cause it dont work lol

[QUOTE=wystan;50038503] Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.[/QUOTE] Hey wystan, trust me your car can fly off a cliff if you go off of iron fast enough. Just try it.

"We can't waterboard but they can cut off heads" Trump you stupid fucking fuck it's called having morals. Maybe if hed stop fucking his daughter for a minute hed realize that "we" are civilised and "they" are not

[QUOTE=The fox;50039096]Geneva doesn't apply unless a state you are fighting are combatants of a nation, ISIS, for example, does not fall under this. Terrorism does not fall under it, either. Besides, most nations don't adhere completely to the geneva convention.[/QUOTE] Wrong!!! Geneva conventions [b]always[/b] apply. Just because the other team doesn't play nice doesn't mean you can stoop to their level.

This sounds so controversial I don't even think it has an inkling of a chance to happen, if you were to do that then you can basically bet there's going to be (another ban Trump petition) strongly worded petition to our government asking for us sever our involvement with NATO or better try and use our position to encourage you to pick the Geneva Convention rules back up again. Thank goodness Trump isn't president yet.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;50040707]Wrong!!! Geneva conventions [b]always[/b] apply. Just because the other team doesn't play nice doesn't mean you can stoop to their level.[/QUOTE] Again, from a pure legal standpoint, the Geneva Convention DOES NOT apply to terrorist groups. No terrorist group is a party to the Geneva Convention (Section 2 Par. 3 explicitly states that parties are not legally forced to respect the Convention when the opposite is not a contracting party, and when they do not abide by its term). They have not signed the treaty, much less ratified. Now many leftist legal academics insist that the Geneva Convention must be universally applied, otherwise it would be contrary to humanitarian principles. Also, we could argue that the fair treatment of war prisoners has become a norm protected by the jus cogens doctrine. In other words, international courts like the ICJ is most likely going to recognize torture as illegal REGARDLESS of the existing treaties, because every civilized nations have recognized that torture is wrong over the time, through customary practices (and customary practices are legally enforceable)

[QUOTE=wystan;50038423]To me it's more morally reprehensible to not to do, choosing to do nothing to at a chance prevent another Paris, another Brussels, another Lahore attack is worse through inaction than torturing confirmed terrorists, when you could save hundreds or thousands, to me it's worse to not try.[/QUOTE] But you're ignoring the part where the CIA, the body that did a lot of torturing, stated that torture does not work. [U]The CIA says torture doesn't work.[/U] That means it probably doesn't work, I don't know what you're getting stuck on. The former director to the CIA was so adamant by the fact that it doesn't work, that he said the CIA would refuse Trump's torture orders. To reiterate: The CIA will ignore Trump's orders to begin torture because the CIA's experience tells them that it does not work. The CIA says all torture does is fuel anti-American sentiments abroad, and actually aid in the recruitment of terrorists.

[QUOTE=Chaitin;50040907]Again, from a pure legal standpoint, the Geneva Convention DOES NOT apply to terrorist groups. No terrorist group is a party to the Geneva Convention (Section 2 Par. 3 explicitly states that parties are not legally forced to respect the Convention when the opposite is not a contracting party, and when they do not abide by its term). They have not signed the treaty, much less ratified. Now many leftist legal academics insist that the Geneva Convention must be universally applied, otherwise it would be contrary to humanitarian principles. Also, we could argue that the fair treatment of war prisoners has become a norm protected by the jus cogens doctrine. In other words, international courts like the ICJ is most likely going to recognize torture as illegal REGARDLESS of the existing treaties, because every civilized nations have recognized that torture is wrong over the time, through customary practices (and customary practices are legally enforceable)[/QUOTE] UDHR though.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;50041463]UDHR though.[/QUOTE] Or that, which supersedes every existing treaty and is now part of customary international law.

You won't know that torture doesn't work until you try. What? We did try? For years? And the people doing the torturing came right out and said that it wasn't achieving any worthwhile results? Well... try again!

Dick Cheney, he "would do it again in a minute".

[QUOTE=ScottyWired;50037325]Ah, so the soldiers are afraid to fight because they can't brutalise captured combatants.[/QUOTE] No, he didn't say that at all. However he's still wrong. All the "sorts of rules and regulations" (as per Trump) to warfare are there for a very good reason. As for what "they" (probably meaning IS) are doing, not only they commit war crimes but also human rights violations.. or rather, the human rights are in violation with Sharia, seeing as calling human rights "universal" is prettttty fucking questionable.

[QUOTE=wystan;50038503]If these were violent people determined on killing innocents, yea. [editline]31st March 2016[/editline] Can't hurt to try, you can't know until you try.[/QUOTE] Well sure we can also try castrating gays but medical practice agrees that it doesn't cure homosexuality, even though it was once considered a treatment for homosexuals You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding that torture does not work.

There is no point in arguing with wystan, this has been his hill to die on for a month now. He just supports torturing people because he [I]feels [/I]like it works and any evidence to the contrary is just disinformation.

and by his logic, oil and coal companies should announce how terrible and inefficient these products are because that's good PR