Tesco removes gender-specific toy sections after little girl complains - Polidicks

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574753]Some do. I am talking about the majority. People are different, no surprise.[/QUOTE] Forcing people to conform to the majority or even just making people feel ashamed for not being a part of the majority are very negative things to have as part of a culture though, so you're arguing for nonsense. Besides, there's no proof that the majority would still be that way because we've never had a culture free of gender norms

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574642]"Looked down" and "killed" are not even close. It's good to promote human rights in countries where people get actually murdered for being different. But in America it's simply about made up issues and the goal is earning money.[/QUOTE] that little girl is going to make so much money by the store changing the sign Isn't your point of "it's okay because capitalism" the one whose goal is earning money? Are there any reasons why it would be bad to have signs saying "Action Figures", "Dolls", "Construction Sets", etc. rather than "Boys" and "Girls"? Any reason?

[QUOTE=AntonioR;46574752]I completely agree. Gender roles haven't fallen from the sky, it's basically a part of human evolution. Was it misused, sure, do we need it today, that's debatable, but we can't ignore our differences and what we are. [B]You can't expect a man to give birth, nor a woman to run 100 meters under 9.6s.[/B][/QUOTE] This is a fucking ridiculous comparison. Men can't give birth because they literally do not have the organs required. Women can [I]easily[/I] take up running. Becoming a record holder is difficult for anybody regardless of gender, though.

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46574745]The majority of girls don't want engineering toys because they're [B][I]fucking taunted for being boyish if they want them.[/I][/B] How difficult is this to understand? The only reason that men and women supposedly naturally gravitate towards this stuff is because for centuries, women have been forced into the role of quiet nurturers, and men have been forced into the role of powerful fighters. What is it with you and capitalism, anyways? Capitalism isn't the one true end-all of reasoning. If anything, capitalism is partially at fault for gender roles by advertising everything as strictly for boys or girls. You never see boys playing with doll sets, or girls playing with toy cars in commercials.[/QUOTE] But why did it happen for centuries? Why weren't we all equal? And how did we suddenly become equal in 1990s? Capitalism is the modern wisdom of crouds. It's not more faulty then human nature and it represents human nature pretty well, capitalism is practially economical rule of jungle. If boys don't play with doll sets in commercials then either there is no demand for that (read: the majority likes it as it is) or no businessman has found out that boys playing with doll sets are in demand.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574557] Who was ever harmed by gender roles since 2000?[/QUOTE] All of the women in countries with laws that specifically limit their freedom, and apply harsher punishments to them than to men? Or the ones who can't get jobs in positions they might want due to the fact that men still dominate the job market in many places? Or the men and women who are discriminated for wanting to get into hobbies or careers that are usually picked up by the other gender? And what about homosexuals or transexuals who live entire lives while pretending to be someone else just because if they didn't, they'd be discriminated against and even beaten or murdered, which actually happens quite often in poorer, more traditional countries? Hell, we live in a time where a guy can't even wear a colorful shirt without risking being mocked and you're wondering if gender roles are actually a bad thing

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574806]But why did it happen for centuries? Why weren't we all equal? And how did we suddenly become equal in 1990s? Capitalism is the modern wisdom of crouds. It's not more faulty then human nature and it represents human nature pretty well, capitalism is practially economical rule of jungle. If boys don't play with doll sets in commercials then either there is no demand for that (read: the majority likes it as it is) or no businessman has found out that boys playing with doll sets are in demand.[/QUOTE] Because for centuries, there was so much disgusting sexism that young girls literally were not kept in school past 13 because people thought it gave them fucking brain damage, or made them sterile. That's how sexist the world was. Only very recently did women demand their well-deserved equality in the world, and some backwards fucknuts *cough* still have the ridiculous idea that women are somehow worse because they have vaginas. And again with the fucking capitalism jerking. Do you jizz yourself to Ron Paul or something? Capitalism is insanely flawed and favors the people who don't mind stepping on the little guy to get money and power. It should have no bearing on how genders are treated.

[QUOTE=Elspin;46574783]Forcing people to conform to the majority or even just making people feel ashamed for not being a part of the majority are very negative things to have as part of a culture though, so you're arguing for nonsense. Besides, there's no proof that the majority would still be that way because we've never had a culture free of gender norms[/QUOTE] And we will never have. We will always have majorities and minorities, it's in our nature. Gender norms are such a big part of our life that they won't be gone... ever. They are literally everywhere. Why do girls have long hair more often then boys? Oh, gender roles. We should probably shave everyone to 3mm just so we are all equal. Why do women wear short skirts and men dont? Gender roles, I can't even wear a skirt without being bullied by the majority for it. Cruel world. Why do women use lipstick and men most often don't? [sp]Maybe because the lipstick mimics the biological effect of being aroused - blood flowing to lips, making them red - and naturally attracts males[/sp] Society-enforced gender roles! A world without genders is totally not a world of humans. Not possible with homo sapiens.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574806]But why did it happen for centuries? Why weren't we all equal? And how did we suddenly become equal in 1990s? Capitalism is the modern wisdom of crouds. It's not more faulty then human nature and it represents human nature pretty well, capitalism is practially economical rule of jungle. If boys don't play with doll sets in commercials then either there is no demand for that (read: the majority likes it as it is) or no businessman has found out that boys playing with doll sets are in demand.[/QUOTE] You seem to think Capitalism is some kind of guiding hand and the market somehow dictates what's right or wrong, and you're not even applying that logic correctly. Let's look at your example here to determine just how little you understand it: >people design doll set >it's not marketed to boys because "they found there's no demand for that" but here's how it really happened >doll sets arose as a way to entertain little girls and enforce the role they used to have to take >we've just kept making them for the same people despite women no longer having to do that capitalism is not some kind of rule for evolution it's literally just the way we buy and trade goods and marketing is not perfect in the slightest, good products can sometimes fail and bad ones can succeed because they convinced people they were good. Products have been marketed to the entirely wrong audience and still succeeded because the right people knew how to use them (see: kinect being used more for robotics, for example)

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46574821]Because for centuries, there was so much disgusting sexism that young girls literally were not kept in school past 13 because people thought it gave them fucking brain damage, or made them sterile. That's how sexist the world was. Only very recently did women demand their well-deserved equality in the world, and some backwards fucknuts *cough* still have the ridiculous idea that women are somehow worse because they have vaginas.[/QUOTE] But why was the world so "sexist"? What was the reason?

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574837]Why do girls have long hair more often then boys? Oh, gender roles. We should probably shave everyone to 3mm just so we are all equal.[/QUOTE] Or, we could just let a person regardless of sex choose their hair length without having to worry about being called out for "being too girly" or "manly"? It just sounds like you're giving an absurd answer to make the movement against gender roles seem stupid. [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574837]Why do women wear short skirts and men dont? Gender roles, I can't even wear a skirt without being bullied by the majority for it. Cruel world.[/QUOTE] You've only given an example of what gender roles set up. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_skirts"]Men's skirts[/URL] exist, and it's not inherently a woman thing. [quote=Wikipedia]Outside of Western cultures, men's [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing"]clothing[/URL] commonly includes [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skirt"]skirts[/URL] and skirt-like garments; however, in North America and much of Europe, the wearing of a skirt is today usually seen as typical for females and not males, the most notable exceptions being the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock"]cassock[/URL] and the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilt"]kilt[/URL]. People have variously attempted to promote the wearing of skirts by men in Western culture and to do away with this [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roles"]gender distinction[/URL], albeit with limited general success and considerable cultural resistance.[/quote]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574837]And we will never have. We will always have majorities and minorities, it's in our nature. Gender norms are such a big part of our life that they won't be gone... ever. They are literally everywhere. Why do girls have long hair more often then boys? Oh, gender roles. We should probably shave everyone to 3mm just so we are all equal. Why do women wear short skirts and men dont? Gender roles, I can't even wear a skirt without being bullied by the majority for it. Cruel world. Why do women use lipstick and men most often don't? [sp]Maybe because the lipstick mimics the biological effect of being aroused - blood flowing to lips, making them red - and naturally attracts males[/sp] Society-enforced gender roles! A world without genders is totally not a world of humans. Not possible with homo sapiens.[/QUOTE] We have seen nothing besides the destruction of gender roles in most modern countries. It's most likely going to be one of the big future battles (such as the gay marriage battle going across western countries). It's going to change, they might always play some role but they're going to be practically annihilated in the future.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574806]But why did it happen for centuries? Why weren't we all equal? And how did we suddenly become equal in 1990s? Capitalism is the modern wisdom of crouds. It's not more faulty then human nature and it represents human nature pretty well, capitalism is practially economical rule of jungle. If boys don't play with doll sets in commercials then either there is no demand for that (read: the majority likes it as it is) or no businessman has found out that boys playing with doll sets are in demand.[/QUOTE] Do you really think feminism only started in the 90's? It's been steadily growing since at least a century ago. And we don't live in the jungle. Rule of the jungle shouldn't apply. The fact that we empathize and cooperate with each other is a large contributor to our success as a species.

[QUOTE=Elspin;46574842]You seem to think Capitalism is some kind of guiding hand and the market somehow dictates what's right or wrong, and you're not even applying that logic correctly. Let's look at your example here to determine just how little you understand it: >people design doll set >it's not marketed to boys because "they found there's no demand for that" but here's how it really happened >doll sets arose as a way to entertain little girls and enforce the role they used to have to take >we've just kept making them for the same people despite women no longer having to do that capitalism is not some kind of rule for evolution it's literally just the way we buy and trade goods and marketing is not perfect in the slightest, good products can sometimes fail and bad ones can succeed because they convinced people they were good. Products have been marketed to the entirely wrong audience and still succeeded because the right people knew how to use them (see: kinect being used more for robotics, for example)[/QUOTE] Capitalism doesn't guide or judge or anything. It only represents the society, it's a mirror of the society as capitalism is all about finding demands and fullfilling them. You can see whats in demand, what's hot, and see what's not, by taking a look at the market.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574837]And we will never have. We will always have majorities and minorities, it's in our nature. Gender norms are such a big part of our life that they won't be gone... ever. They are literally everywhere. Why do girls have long hair more often then boys? Oh, gender roles. We should probably shave everyone to 3mm just so we are all equal. Why do women wear short skirts and men dont? Gender roles, I can't even wear a skirt without being bullied by the majority for it. Cruel world. Why do women use lipstick and men most often don't? [sp]Maybe because the lipstick mimics the biological effect of being aroused - blood flowing to lips, making them red - and naturally attracts males[/sp] Society-enforced gender roles! A world without genders is totally not a world of humans. Not possible with homo sapiens.[/QUOTE] They're already disappearing and you're living so far in the past that despite the fact that you're probably a young teenager you'll be like a grumpy old man by the time you're 20. Which matches the culture you're living in I guess. Plus why are you suggesting we restrict freedoms to make things equal? You're literally thinking that the solution is the opposite of what sane people do - activists for a better world say you should be able to have any length of hair whatever your gender... so you imply they're saying that everyone should have to shave their head to make it fair? That's literally the opposite of what's being suggested Come on man, you're just being ridiculous

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574837]Why do girls have long hair more often then boys? Oh, gender roles. We should probably shave everyone to 3mm just so we are all equal.[/QUOTE] not only are you missing the point with this, it actually doesn't even contribute to your argument at all i mean come on are you actually denying that's enforced by society? are you saying girls are naturally wired to like longer hair?

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574837]Why do girls have long hair more often then boys? Oh, gender roles. We should probably shave everyone to 3mm just so we are all equal. Why do women wear short skirts and men dont? Gender roles, I can't even wear a skirt without being bullied by the majority for it. Cruel world.[/QUOTE] You're really not very smart are you? The first one is relatively recent actually. In Roman times it was also common for men to have short hair. But in basically every other time in history it was completely normal for both genders to have long hair. And good job reinforcing the opposing argument with that second point. That sort of shit is exactly why people are supporting this in the first place genius.

[QUOTE=Snickerdoodle;46574857]Or, we could just let a person regardless of sex choose their hair length without having to worry about being called out for "being too girly" or "manly"?[/QUOTE] You will always have to worry. If you cut your hair too short or leave it too long - you stand out of the crowd, you become different. You naturally attract attention and strike people around you with how different you are. It's the price of deviating. We are deeply psychologically programmed to be aggressive towards "different" species. Any kind of different. Too fat, too thin, too white or too dark skinned, wearing unfitting clothes, speaking unfitting language. It all attracts attention and when it doesn't fit the situation it causes hostility. Like kids bullying a fat kid. It's not like they hate fat people, they just bully him because he is different. They feel that he is a black sheep, he stands out, he is not one of them, not from their pack. [editline]26th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;46574894]not only are you missing the point with this, it actually doesn't even contribute to your argument at all i mean come on are you actually denying that's enforced by society? are you saying girls are naturally wired to like longer hair?[/QUOTE] It's a part of our society, but why is it bad? [editline]26th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Elspin;46574879]They're already disappearing and you're living so far in the past that despite the fact that you're probably a young teenager you'll be like a grumpy old man by the time you're 20. Which matches the culture you're living in I guess. Plus why are you suggesting we restrict freedoms to make things equal? You're literally thinking that the solution is the opposite of what sane people do - activists for a better world say you should be able to have any length of hair whatever your gender... so you imply they're saying that everyone should have to shave their head to make it fair? That's literally the opposite of what's being suggested Come on man, you're just being ridiculous[/QUOTE] You can already have hair of any length you like. But you also have to somehow force on everyone around you to accept it as a norm for them. For no reason, really. That means being ignorant to the fact that other people have their own views and if they find it "too girly" its their own business. That of course means that they have no right to force you to change your haircut, but luckily law already protects your right to have any haircut of desire. Like the girl in the article has to force her minority views on all other clients of the shop, despite it being just her offended.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574910]It's a part of our society, but why is it bad?[/QUOTE] because people are discriminated for going against the norm, kinda like we've been telling you the whole thread

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574910]You will always have to worry. If you cut your hair too short or leave it too long - you stand out of the crowd, you become different. You naturally attract attention and strike people around you with how different you are. It's the price of deviating. We are deeply psychologically programmed to be aggressive towards "different" species. Any kind of different. Too fat, too thin, too white or too dark skinned, wearing unfitting clothes, speaking unfitting language. It all attracts attention and when it doesn't fit the situation it causes hostility. Like kids bullying a fat kid. It's not like they hate fat people, they just bully him because he is different. They feel that he is a black sheep, he stands out, he is not one of them, not from their pack.[/QUOTE] Gender roles are what set up that "you're different because you have a guy/girl's hair" aspect to begin with. If gender roles were eliminated (at least with hairstyles), there would be no oddity about choosing your hair style to begin with.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574910]You will always have to worry. If you cut your hair too short or leave it too long - you stand out of the crowd, you become different. You naturally attract attention and strike people around you with how different you are. It's the price of deviating. We are deeply psychologically programmed to be aggressive towards "different" species. Any kind of different. Too fat, too thin, too white or too dark skinned, wearing unfitting clothes, speaking unfitting language. It all attracts attention and when it doesn't fit the situation it causes hostility. Like kids bullying a fat kid. It's not like they hate fat people, they just bully him because he is different. They feel that he is a black sheep, he stands out, he is not one of them, not from their pack.[/quote] Just because something is happening or is natural does not mean that it is right. You're confusing ought with is. [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574910]It's a part of our society, but why is it bad?[/QUOTE] People who are different in mundane ways - for example, liking things not part of their gender role - get ostracized for it. It harms people. Not necessarily physical harm, but if you think that physical harm is the only type of harm, then you may be some sort of sociopath or something. Your turn. Why are [I]good[/I]? [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574910]Like the girl in the article has to force her minority views on all other clients of the shop, despite it being just her offended.[/QUOTE] Given how many people are supporting her, I severely, [B]severely[/B] doubt that it's "just her".

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574910]You will always have to worry. If you cut your hair too short or leave it too long - you stand out of the crowd, you become different. You naturally attract attention and strike people around you with how different you are. It's the price of deviating. We are deeply psychologically programmed to be aggressive towards "different" species. Any kind of different. Too fat, too thin, too white or too dark skinned, wearing unfitting clothes, speaking unfitting language. It all attracts attention and when it doesn't fit the situation it causes hostility. Like kids bullying a fat kid. It's not like they hate fat people, they just bully him because he is different. They feel that he is a black sheep, he stands out, he is not one of them, not from their pack.[/QUOTE] No, you won't always have to worry because in a healthy society being different might still attract attention but it shouldn't be negative unless what you're doing is actually harmful to people. Nice literally racist addition there, by the way. Our society is already moving towards this - gays, transgenders, crossdressers, etc are all globally moving towards more rights and acceptance. Where I grew up nobody would care in the slightest, it would barely raise eyebrows if you were gay. I had a gay friend in highschool and he was super popular with everybody [QUOTE]It's a part of our society, but why is it bad?[/QUOTE] Unless you completely literally believe that people should be made to feel shame for something that causes no problems whatsoever (which would make you are a shit human being, no doubt about that) it should be pretty obvious why it's bad?

[QUOTE=Last or First;46574953]Just because something is happening or is natural does not mean that it is right. You're confusing ought with is. [/quote] What is right though? [QUOTE=Last or First;46574953] People who are different in mundane ways - for example, liking things not part of their gender role - get ostracized for it. It harms people. Not necessarily physical harm, but if you think that physical harm is the only type of harm, then you may be some sort of sociopath or something. Your turn. Why are [I]good[/I]? [/QUOTE] I think they are not good or bad, they just are a part of our life.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574910]You can already have hair of any length you like. But you also have to somehow force on everyone around you to accept it as a norm for them. For no reason, really. That means being ignorant to the fact that other people have their own views [B]and if they find it "too girly" its their own business[/B]. That of course means that they have no right to force you to change your haircut, but luckily law already protects your right to have any haircut of desire. Like the girl in the article has to force her minority views on all other clients of the shop, despite it being just her offended.[/QUOTE] You don't seem to understand the fact that if gender roles weren't a thing to begin with, the concept of "too girly" wouldn't be a thing.

[QUOTE=Snickerdoodle;46574996]You don't seem to understand the fact that if gender roles weren't a thing to begin with, the concept of "too girly" wouldn't be a thing.[/QUOTE] Still, why do you have to force your views on others? Why do you believe the ones who oppose your view, the majority, are objectively wrong?

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574992]What is right though? I think they are not good or bad, they just are a part of our life.[/QUOTE] if you can consciously choose to not engage in something, like gender roles, then the concept that "they are just part of our life" is obviously false. Guess what? You can easily, and consciously choose to not engage in these gender roles. I'm a guy who had long hair for years. This earned me a fair bit of drama in my life and even caused one fight. Over my choice to wear my hair that way because gender roles exist. And you say "what's the harm" and "they just are" when there's obvious harm and they obviously don't have to be.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574999]Still, why do you have to force your views on others? Why do you believe the ones who oppose your view, the majority, are objectively wrong?[/QUOTE] You have a literally backwards idea of what forcing your views on someone is. YOU are the one forcing your view on someone, not the other way around. Saying "someone should be able to do what they want, as long as it is legal" is NOT forcing a view on someone. Saying "someone should not be able to do what they want, as long as it is legal" IS forcing a view on someone

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574999][B]Still, why do you have to force your views on others?[/B] Why do you believe the ones who oppose your view, the majority, are objectively wrong?[/QUOTE] That's why gender roles are being questioned at this point in time. People are tired of being forced into roles (views of how and what a person should do based on gender) because of the gender they had no control over at birth. My girlfriend has a promising looking career ahead of her as a professional cartoonist. If you look back a hundred or so years ago, she probably wouldn't have been given the opportunity to study or do anything she wants to do today because she would have been most likely given the job as a stay-at-home mother. If being forced to be a typical housewife while the men get to do all the other work, I don't see how that's just or righteous for women.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46574999]Still, why do you have to force your views on others? Why do you believe the ones who oppose your view, the majority, are objectively wrong?[/QUOTE] I saw your edit. And you said "We can't get rid of gender roles until we don't have genders". Well, let's talk about that for a second because you're obviously too ashamed to leave it all for us to see. Gender roles =/= gender. At all. Gender roles are the effemora, the cultural and social limitations and assumptions that are often applied to a gender. They are not the gender themselves. They are OBVIOUSLY flexible, as you can see that there are hundreds and thousands of societies across the world you change these as they go based on their ancient histories.

[QUOTE=Elspin;46575033]You have a literally backwards idea of what forcing your views on someone is. YOU are the one forcing your view on someone, not the other way around. Saying "someone should be able to do what they want, as long as it is legal" is NOT forcing a view on someone. Saying "someone should not be able to do what they want, as long as it is legal" IS forcing a view on someone[/QUOTE] Who is not letting you do what you want?

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46575075]Who is not letting you do what you want?[/QUOTE] if you enforce traditional gender roles, and people get hurt from it, then, aren't you? Everyone who opposes you says "Do whatever you want as long as it's legal and doesn't hurt anyone". You're saying "Do whatever you want but be aware there are these things that are real, factual, and you cannot argue with them and harm you get from them is something you've wrought upon yourself.".