• You can swap a Tesla battery faster than you can fill a tank of gas.
    132 replies, posted
I like the idea of electric cars, but as long as we derive energy from non renewable sources electric cars are not helping anything. Just because your car runs on electricity does not mean it is eco friendly. That electricity has to come from somewhere. I'm pretty sure nuclear energy, developed further, is the best bet we have for the future.
[QUOTE=FordLord;41115008]Still doesnt fix the long charge times. Its like telling a car owner "Your car ran out of gas, so we are going to swap out your gas tank with a full one." Plus, filling a car doesnt take long to begin with. Though, the new pumps seem to be slower than the older ones ive used. Want to fill a car faster? Throw in a fuel cell. When it runs out, swap in a full one[/QUOTE] what the fuck, you just said something is bad then said the exact same thing would be a better choice
Also there is one thing I am not sure, so I would love if someone would clarify it. Wouldn't using an electric car with power derived from non-renewable sources or thermic generators be less efficient than a regular engine? Because you are first incurring losses at turning petrol/natural gas/coal/whatever into electricity which you then use to run an engine, incurring even more losses. Surely if a country is mainly using non renewable energy sources skipping the middle man would be more efficient? Or am I mistaken somehow? ...Automerge
Someone in my neighborhood owns a Model S. I have seen it driving around. It was cool as hell, I really want Tesla to take off.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;41115433]what the fuck, you just said something is bad then said the exact same thing would be a better choice[/QUOTE] Joke = over your head. Meant as a play on how ridiculous having to swap batteries is. Plus, a gas tank and a fuel cell are two different things
[QUOTE=FordLord;41115158]Swapping used batteries :V As someone else pointed out, it could also be bad because you dont know the condition of the batteries. You could be swapping your perfectly good one thats just low on juice, for one that doesnt even hold a charge properly Theres no need to swap fuel cells, as filling a car is quick. Im basically trying to show you that having to swap batteries is as ridiculous as pulling the gas tank or a fuel cell out of your car every time it runs out. Actually, even more ridiculous, considering swapping a gas tank atleast gives you fresh fuel[/QUOTE] That'll be a concern. Though Tesla already has dedicated service centers in range of all customers. Tesla already schedules regular service appointments for your car and they'll come pick them up and give you a loaner Model S while they tune up your car for whatever reason. The batteries are also guaranteed by Tesla or they'll buy you a new one. I'm guessing they'll have regular checks on all the batteries they have out. They already check every car regularly and they monitor them wireless if the owner enables them to. Tesla's customer service is unmatched.
[QUOTE=OvB;41114971]You have an option of either a 60kWh or 85kWh battery. 1 kilowatt hour = 3.6 megajoules So about 216-306 megajoules total.[/QUOTE] So at 90% efficiency we're talking like 194 to 275 MJ utilized. But that's at a weight of 1500lbs [I]of battery[/I] for 80kWh model. Now say a small car with a 10 gallon tank means about 1370 MJ total. With a 40% efficient combustion engine that's still 548MJ utilized as mechanical motion. That comes at a weight of about 61lbs of fuel. [B]Energy densities factoring in efficiency:[/B] Lithium Ion batteries: 0.18MJ/lb Gasoline: 9.1MJ/lb In conclusion: batteries still suck hard.
[QUOTE=Fetret;41115451]Also there is one thing I am not sure, so I would love if someone would clarify it. Wouldn't using an electric car with power derived from non-renewable sources or thermic generators be less efficient than a regular engine? Because you are first incurring losses at turning petrol/natural gas/coal/whatever into electricity which you then use to run an engine, incurring even more losses. Surely if a country is mainly using non renewable energy sources skipping the middle man would be more efficient? Or am I mistaken somehow? ...Automerge[/QUOTE] Producing energy even at a coal power planet to use in electric cars will always be cleaner than using gas cars. However the manufacturing methods for batteries has a lot to clean up as far as I know.
Is it bad that I want to mount a lazy chair to the stripped down version and make it control with like a ps3 controller or something? :v:
[QUOTE=FordLord;41115369]Propane tanks are similar, however theyre dealing with a flammable gas and are regulated more.[/QUOTE] Where I work we do propane tank exchanges and I've never seen an issue with a tank exchange. All we do is make sure the tank isn't damaged. This battery exchange system would work the exact same more or less and would probably be just as painless.
[QUOTE=Crimor;41115765]Is it bad that I want to mount a lazy chair to the stripped down version and make it control with like a ps3 controller or something? :v:[/QUOTE] I want to turn a white Model S into a submarine car like James Bond's Lotus.
[QUOTE=Stupideye;41116001]Where I work we do propane tank exchanges and I've never seen an issue with a tank exchange. All we do is make sure the tank isn't damaged. This battery exchange system would work the exact same more or less and would probably be just as painless.[/QUOTE] I think the issue he's worried about is the lifecycle deal with rechargeable batteries. After 1000 cycles etc, a LiPo battery only holds so much of its original charge. I think it's something like 80%, but really I don't remember. The idea is that someone who bought a Model S really early, or someone who uses their Model S much more than the average driver, has gone through a significant number of cycles and the battery is no longer as effective as the brand new one you just handed in to the Tesla station. It's harder to determine whether or not a battery is holding all of its power than inspecting propane tanks because the cells can be dramatically less effective and still be in perfect condition. I think. I still love the idea though.
I feel like I'll end up sticking with my gas guzzlers to the bitter end, honestly. Seems like my car will still be simpler and more practical for me to drive around compared to an electric car. Even if electric cars still end up surpassing traditional cars in all aspects, I'd still drive my cars around. Theres's more character to them, I suppose, and that's enough for me :v:
[QUOTE=GunFox;41115157]Hah, I always figured this was the obvious solution to battery charging woes. Open a panel located on the side of the vehicle, slide a long rectangular cell out and place it on a rack for charging. Replace it with a freshly charged one from said rack. Close side panel and roll. If there is standardization in the battery design, then it would work great.[/QUOTE] The issue with this though is batteries are generally big and expensive, so they'd probably be high theft targets, there'd likely be an easy way to exploit (i.e. take the battery out, but don't replace it with your old one), battery degradation (what if you happen to swap it out with a really old POS battery?), if an "electric station" is high enough volume you could easily find yourself pulling up to a stop that doesn't have any batteries in stock, the startup costs of an "electric station" would be extremely massive because you'd have to buy a ton of batteries to supply demand etc. Though these issues can largely be solved by an innovative way of servicing to prevent theft and other issues. They'll also have to think of ways to get around the fact that batteries aren't cheap, so how are we gonna afford to build a gas station that can swap out batteries if there aren't any fully charged ones available yet, etc.
Who ends up paying for the battery packs when they die/lose too much capacity?
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;41116671]Who ends up paying for the battery packs when they die/lose too much capacity?[/QUOTE] Tesla guarantees all batteries unless you deliberately try to destroy it. If the battery craps out on you, you get a new one at no cost to you. They'll come, pick up your car, drop off a loaner Model S, replace your battery, and give you your car back. [quote] The battery is covered even if an owner fails to follow charging guidelines laid out in the owners' manual. "Any product that needs a manual to work is broken," Musk said. The only cases in which Tesla (TSLA) would not honor a battery warranty would be a case in which a customer deliberately attempted to damage or destroy the battery, he said. "If you take a blow-torch to the battery pack or blow it up or use it for target practice" the warranty would be voided, Musk said. Also, of course Tesla would not cover battery damage resulting from a crash. Car insurance will have to pay for that.[/quote] [quote]So far, Musk said, Tesla has not had a single problem with the batteries themselves failing. Any failures that have occurred have been due to faulty computer chips and other components. The automaker also announced other improvements to the service it offers Model S owners including nicer loaner cars. "Our service is OK and it needs to be great," Tesla CEO Elon Musk said in a conference call with reporters. When the vehicles need service, rather than having owners bring their cars to Tesla service centers themselves, Tesla will pick up the cars and owners will be given loaner cars. Tesla's loaner car fleet will now include only top-of-the-line Model S cars, equipped with the 265 mile long-range battery packs, and Tesla Roadster sports cars. [/quote] Your car needs servicing? You get to play with a better one while they fix yours.
[QUOTE=KorJax;41116668]The issue with this though is batteries are generally big and expensive, so they'd probably be high theft targets, there'd likely be an easy way to exploit (i.e. take the battery out, but don't replace it with your old one), battery degradation (what if you happen to swap it out with a really old POS battery?), if an "electric station" is high enough volume you could easily find yourself pulling up to a stop that doesn't have any batteries in stock, the startup costs of an "electric station" would be extremely massive because you'd have to buy a ton of batteries to supply demand etc. Though these issues can largely be solved by an innovative way of servicing to prevent theft and other issues. They'll also have to think of ways to get around the fact that batteries aren't cheap, so how are we gonna afford to build a gas station that can swap out batteries if there aren't any fully charged ones available yet, etc.[/QUOTE] Maybe we could bring back [del]gas[/del] charging station attendants? That seems like a surefire way to prevent theft from consumers.
If anything this is why we need to get electric cars off LiPo batteries ASAP and start moving into more advanced/experiemental battieries, such as what might be possible with Graphine. Not only would Graphine not have the issues Lithium batteries currently do, but they would hold a charge much better, charge much faster, etc. That's the real only issue with electric ATM. The batteries simply aren't -there- yet to really support the electric car technology from really taking off. We have new ways of making better and better batteries now but none of it is commercially available yet or fully field tested.
[QUOTE=OvB;41116705]Tesla guarantees all batteries unless you deliberate try to destroy it. If the battery craps out on you, you get a new one at no cost to you. They'll come, pick up your car, drop off a loaner Model S, replace your battery, and give you your car back.[/QUOTE] Wow that's an awesome policy. Do they tell us what they do with the batteries though?
[QUOTE=GunFox;41115157]Hah, I always figured this was the obvious solution to battery charging woes. Open a panel located on the side of the vehicle, slide a long rectangular cell out and place it on a rack for charging. Replace it with a freshly charged one from said rack. Close side panel and roll. If there is standardization in the battery design, then it would work great.[/QUOTE]Would suck if you went to get the battery swapped in the station, and got one that some moron mishandled in exchange.
[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;41116737]Wow that's an awesome policy. Do they tell us what they do with the batteries though?[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what they do with them. Probably strip out the cells and recycle them. The battery is literally just a bunch of Panasonic rechargeable batteries in series. Theres a pretty brief but good explanation of the batteries on this documentary: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgDcA1pZAM[/media] 22:12 mark (but watch the whole thing it's great)
[QUOTE=FordLord;41115527]Joke = over your head. Meant as a play on how ridiculous having to swap batteries is. Plus, a gas tank and a fuel cell are two different things[/QUOTE] how is swapping batteries any less ridiculous than paying $60 to fill up my gas tank
[QUOTE=Fetret;41115402]I like the idea of electric cars, but as long as we derive energy from non renewable sources electric cars are not helping anything. Just because your car runs on electricity does not mean it is eco friendly. That electricity has to come from somewhere. I'm pretty sure nuclear energy, developed further, is the best bet we have for the future.[/QUOTE] Power plants, including coal ones, are way more efficient than a regular car's combustion engine so, while they might not be completely green, they're way greener than regular cars.
[QUOTE=God of Ashes;41117089]how is swapping batteries any less ridiculous than paying $60 to fill up my gas tank[/QUOTE] Considering you save tons of money buying a gas powered car, its not exactly ridiculous. For instance, my car; 1999 Subaru Impreza. Paid ~5000 back in '05. We've put 100k miles or so on it since then, and it gets 30mpg or so. After around 7 years of ownership, including the original cost, gas, maintenance, and upgrades, theres been around 20k USD spent on the car. Compared to the cost of buying a Tesla, maintenance, etc. It ends up not being so bad paying for gas, when after 7 years ive only spent.. what, less than 1/3 the cost of a Tesla Model S?
But a used Impreza is not a luxury Sedan. A brand new Merc S-Class vs. a brand new Tesla Model S would be a more fair comparison.
[QUOTE=OvB;41114726]I just realized the event is actually [i]tonight[/i]. For some reason I was thinking it had already happened. Watch history be made, tune in live here 8PM Cali time: [url]http://www.teslamotors.com/[/url][/QUOTE] Has the event passed now or what?
This is pretty cool, but I'm wondering how standardized batteries will work in the long run. Technology is always advancing, most of all in the electronics department. What will happen when a new smaller, more efficient, and cheaper battery design is created 10 years from when you bought your Tesla. Suddenly your 10 year old Tesla battery that was standardized is now obsolete, and a lot of recharging stations have very little cells for your battery standard, or they have none at all. Eventually, wont that 10 year old battery become completely obsolete? To the point where they won't be made anymore? Does your 10 or 20 year old car become useless then?
Im determined to buy one after I graduate college and land a great job. [editline]20th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Electrocuter;41117141]Power plants, including coal ones, are way more efficient than a regular car's combustion engine so, while they might not be completely green, they're way greener than regular cars.[/QUOTE] I'd much rather have pollution coming from a handful of accountable sources, rather than billions of unaccountable sources. In other words, I'd much rather have everyone drive electric cars and get the electricity from powerplants that can be held accountable for their pollution, as opposed to everyone driving gasoline cars and having an incredibly hard time regulating its pollution output.
[QUOTE=creec;41117867]Has the event passed now or what?[/QUOTE] Not yet. [editline]20th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=T2L_Goose;41117881]This is pretty cool, but I'm wondering how standardized batteries will work in the long run. Technology is always advancing, most of all in the electronics department. What will happen when a new smaller, more efficient, and cheaper battery design is created 10 years from when you bought your Tesla. Suddenly your 10 year old Tesla battery that was standardized is now obsolete, and a lot of recharging stations have very little cells for your battery standard, or they have none at all. Eventually, wont that 10 year old battery become completely obsolete? To the point where they won't be made anymore? Does your 10 or 20 year old car become useless then?[/QUOTE] I would assume Tesla would manufacture the newer batteries to be backwards comparable with older cars. Or upgrade older cars to accept newer batteries. Tesla customers get full service. They'll make it work out.
[QUOTE=OvB;41117681]But a used Impreza is not a luxury Sedan. A brand new Merc S-Class vs. a brand new Tesla Model S would be a more fair comparison.[/QUOTE] An Impreza is arguably a better car than either of them really. With standard AWD, made to handle all terrains, Boxer engine, etc. Plus, this is just using some data i have to show how much cheaper a gas powered car is, even in the long run with paying for gas. Even a diesel powered vehicle is cheaper for a while. My dad's truck, '00 Ford F250 with 7.3l Powerstroke Diesel. Owned since 06, put around 150k miles on it since then, bought for 11k USD. After figuring in everything, we've spent about 45k on it since we bought it. Includes purchasing, fuel, maintenance, etc
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