• Canada's ex-Defense Minister who ultimately shaped Canada's armed forces during the Cold War: Aliens
    240 replies, posted
"Behold, we are advanced aliens. Our starships' drives are powerful enough to travel across the cosmos fairly easily, and we're here to OH CRAP A FISSION BOMB, NAW MAN I'M OUTTA HERE THAT SHIT'S TOO DANGEROUS YO"
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43436592]I've always liked this.[/QUOTE] But what if there ARE interstellar policemen? Then the WHOLE argument falls apart.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43436912]But what if there ARE interstellar policemen? Then the WHOLE argument falls apart.[/QUOTE] because you can't be if relativistic civilizations exist You can only be a ~police man~ if you exterminate other relativistic civilizations yourself, so nothing changes.
scientific illiteracy.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43435755]As if they wouldn't have that technology too.[/QUOTE] Fucking hypocrite aliens.
[video=youtube;xuqENCAcwsE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuqENCAcwsE[/video] The full length video is much longer if you want to watch it. Also this website got a good collection of declassified documents regarding UFO's and our nuclear programs. [URL="http://www.ufohastings.com/documents"]http://www.ufohastings.com/documents[/URL]
[QUOTE=minilandstan;43435767]That would imply aliens are above war. Who knows, maybe they'd look at us and be all "Holy shit they turned atoms into bombs, we should totally make these guys our allies"[/QUOTE] Maybe in an intergalactic sense, we are actually "that race" that just wants to blow shit up and be badass?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437092]because you can't be if relativistic civilizations exist You can only be a ~police man~ if you exterminate other relativistic civilizations yourself, so nothing changes.[/QUOTE] A civilisation advanced enough could probably fling around rockets at 0.99 c which, might not seem like a big deal when we're talking about relativistic civilisations but against a civilization struggling to achieve what can barely be considered a relativistic rocket in the first place, 0.99 c is a LOT. Basically any species that is the MOST advanced could VERY EASILY act as 'interstellar police'. They wouldn't need to fear lesser species. Hell, we're also going on the assumption that our current understanding of physics is almost complete (which, as a tertiary physics student, I'm SURE it's not: Max Planck was told when he was young that 'physics was almost complete' and that all that was left to do was fill in a few small unknowns, and then... bam - quantum mechanics). If there's some better way of travelling (wormholes or something) then we need not fear interstellar rockets as much.
[QUOTE=Asmaedus;43436356]God I haven't read this for about 5 years, thank you. Now through reading this again I see a pretty big plot hole :( [sp]The infallible predictor wrongly predicted that we would spill out and destroy the writers planet. Yet the next post says that we become cool dudes all about art.[/sp][/QUOTE] Except we did spill out and annihilate them, just not when they expected us to. What the predictor saw was our retaliation to their preemptive attack. That's really weird, though. They saw us respond to their preemptive attack and kill them, and so preemptively attacked us in an attempt to prevent us killing them. [editline]now[/editline] [QUOTE=ionuttzu;43436750][sp]It wasn't wrong, the future still was that we all came to destroy their planet. Even if it's because they nuked the fuck out of Earth. Self-fulfilling prophecy I think it's called[/sp][/QUOTE] Oh fuck you.
[QUOTE=Simski;43435783]Reminds me of this :v: [t]http://i.imgur.com/Mtcfmmr.png[/t][/QUOTE] Now I want a movie of this.
-snip-
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437279]A civilisation advanced enough could probably fling around rockets at 0.99 c which, might not seem like a big deal when we're talking about relativistic civilisations but against a civilization struggling to achieve what can barely be considered a relativistic rocket in the first place, 0.99 c is a LOT. Basically any species that is the MOST advanced could VERY EASILY act as 'interstellar police'. They wouldn't need to fear lesser species. Hell, we're also going on the assumption that our current understanding of physics is almost complete (which, as a tertiary physics student, I'm SURE it's not: Max Planck was told when he was young that 'physics was almost complete' and that all that was left to do was fill in a few small unknowns, and then... bam - quantum mechanics). If there's some better way of travelling (wormholes or something) then we need not fear interstellar rockets as much.[/QUOTE] "[I]very easily[/i] be interstellar police" lol But the most advanced civilization would have survived by exterminating any threats. And have survived by trying to remain hidden and destroying any civilizations they bump into in the dark. Not trying to make themselves known to every damn single relativistic civilization in the entire galaxy. Relativistic weapons don't need to achieve 0.99c but only a fraction of that to pose a threat to a planet. It'll be as futile as trying to be a policeman in DayZ. Also the problem with wormholes and FTL travel is that most people forget the can of worms called causality that comes with it. If you genuinely believe that wormholes are viable then you have to maintain that time travel is also viable using the exact same technology.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43435755]As if they wouldn't have that technology too.[/QUOTE] I think the point is these Aliens may be naturally peaceful creatures, therefore they might have the technology yet also have no intention of using it. If they saw mankind using it they might get scared because we are so careless and violent. Speaking hypothetically here, I don't think these aliens exist.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437330]"[I]very easily[/i] be interstellar police" lol But the most advanced civilization would have survived by exterminating any threats. And have survived by trying to remain hidden and destroying any civilizations they bump into in the dark. Not trying to make themselves known to every damn single relativistic civilization in the entire galaxy. Relativistic weapons don't need to achieve 0.99c but only a fraction of that to pose a threat to a planet. It'll be as futile as trying to be a policeman in DayZ. Also the problem with wormholes and FTL travel is that most people forget the can of worms called causality that comes with it. If you genuinely believe that wormholes are viable then you have to maintain that time travel is also viable using the exact same technology.[/QUOTE] Or the most advanced might have happened to come into being in an area of the galaxy relatively devoid of life and might not have encountered alien life until they were already much more advanced than all of it. At which point they're MUCH more equipped to simply dodge any possible relativistic attacks given that they can outmaneuver any opponent by speeds a factor of 9 higher. They could simply dodge around all day IF anybody else was a threat to them, and nobody would be because of their much more advanced technology.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437420]Or the most advanced might have happened to come into being in an area of the galaxy relatively devoid of life and might not have encountered alien life until they were already much more advanced than all of it. At which point they're MUCH more equipped to simply dodge any possible relativistic attacks given that they can outmaneuver any opponent by speeds a factor of 9 higher. They could simply dodge around all day IF anybody else was a threat to them, and nobody would be because of their much more advanced technology.[/QUOTE] You can't dodge relativistic weapons.
"The most humbling feature of the relativistic bomb is that even if you happen to see it coming, its exact motion and position can never be determined" You can't 'dodge' them.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437330]"[I]very easily[/i] be interstellar police" lol But the most advanced civilization would have survived by exterminating any threats. And have survived by trying to remain hidden and destroying any civilizations they bump into in the dark. Not trying to make themselves known to every damn single relativistic civilization in the entire galaxy. Relativistic weapons don't need to achieve 0.99c but only a fraction of that to pose a threat to a planet. It'll be as futile as trying to be a policeman in DayZ. Also the problem with wormholes and FTL travel is that most people forget the can of worms called causality that comes with it. If you genuinely believe that wormholes are viable then you have to maintain that time travel is also viable using the exact same technology.[/QUOTE] Well the whole hypothesis of aliens visiting us kinda requires wormholes/FTL travel to be possible. If it's not then they probably don't even know we exist and we can't possibly be a threat to each other.
[QUOTE=minilandstan;43435767]That would imply aliens are above war. Who knows, maybe they'd look at us and be all "Holy shit they turned atoms into bombs, we should totally make these guys our allies"[/QUOTE]Even the Tsar Bomba would be a pathetic firecracker compared to the kind of energy and technology needed for feasible interstellar travel. I doubt they'd be that impressed by it.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437279]A civilisation advanced enough could probably fling around rockets at 0.99 c which, might not seem like a big deal when we're talking about relativistic civilisations but against a civilization struggling to achieve what can barely be considered a relativistic rocket in the first place, 0.99 c is a LOT.[/QUOTE] If a civilization can launch stuff at .99c like it's no big deal, they're probably not going to bother much with lesser species: once that sort of power becomes cheap to you, the upstart monkeys of Sol 3 aren't going to pose a real threat, at least not enough to warrant planetary annihilation.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;43437474]Well the whole hypothesis of aliens visiting us kinda requires wormholes/FTL travel to be possible. If it's not then they probably don't even know we exist and we can't possibly be a threat to each other.[/QUOTE] Well no because we don't need to physically visit solar systems to discover them. The point of the case study of relativistic civilizations is that they're all hiding in their respective solar systems and then they suddenly annihilate any other detective civilizations within range of them before the same thing happens to them.
[QUOTE=Simski;43435783]Reminds me of this :v: [t]http://i.imgur.com/Mtcfmmr.png[/t][/QUOTE] Btw does anyone know if a video was made with one of those voice actor YT channels reading this?
good thing relativistic weapons aren't possible then
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437456]"The most humbling feature of the relativistic bomb is that even if you happen to see it coming, its exact motion and position can never be determined" You can't 'dodge' them.[/QUOTE] Yes you can. All you have to do is dart around in a random path through the galaxy. You COULD be unlucky enough to stray upon the path of one at some random point in spacetime, but that's unlikely. As long as you're zigzagging around in your spaceship without any kind of discernible path nobody can target you very well from afar. Now if they know where your home planet is that's a different problem entirely, but if you keep THAT fact quiet and operate from what is effectively a FOB out in the cosmos, don't let anyone know where you originally come from, and effectively interact with other species as though you're a nomad then your home world is at no real danger, and neither are you as an individual because you can move around in whatever crazy, random path you choose.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;43437449]You can't dodge relativistic weapons.[/QUOTE] Trying to hit stuff with them is a pain in the ass, though. The target is small, impossibly far, and moving, while the projectile is ridiculously expensive and can pretty much only travel in a straight line. If you hate the dudes at the other end [I]that[/I] much, you're probably better off building a regular relativistic ship, send your Space Marines or whatever, and kick their ass the old-fashioned way. You also get a readily habitable planet for all your colonization needs, with free slaves and infrastructure.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437541]Yes you can. All you have to do is dart around in a random path through the galaxy. You COULD be unlucky enough to stray upon the path of one at some random point in spacetime, but that's unlikely. As long as you're zigzagging around in your spaceship without any kind of discernible path nobody can target you very well from afar. Now if they know where your home planet is that's a different problem entirely, but if you keep THAT fact quiet and operate from what is effectively a FOB out in the cosmos, don't let anyone know where you originally come from, and effectively interact with other species as though you're a nomad then your home world is at no real danger, and neither are you as an individual because you can move around in whatever crazy, random path you choose.[/QUOTE] and how does this space opera civilisation become policemen of the known galaxy? [editline]6th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Cone;43437535]good thing relativistic weapons aren't possible then[/QUOTE] huh? They're like the lowest tech in interstellar travel.
[QUOTE=Cone;43437535]good thing relativistic weapons aren't possible then[/QUOTE] They are. Just hella hard to make, and generally a waste of resources.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43437550]Trying to hit stuff with them is a pain in the ass, though. The target is small, impossibly far, and moving, while the projectile is ridiculously expensive and can pretty much only travel in a straight line. If you hate the dudes at the other end [I]that[/I] much, you're probably better off building a regular relativistic ship, send your Space Marines or whatever, and kick their ass the old-fashioned way. You also get a readily habitable planet for all your colonization needs, with free slaves and infrastructure.[/QUOTE] you're thinking of space opera, not reality here. Sending a 1500 ton relativistic bomb is hard enough, sending an entire invasion fleet to conquer and entire planet? lmao If you can land an army into a planets atmosphere, you can land a relativistic bomb. why is it habitable to us? Why do we need slaves? why do we want their ~water~? [editline]6th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43437582]They are. Just hella hard to make, and generally a waste of resources.[/QUOTE] So are nuclear weapons
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437560]and how does this space opera civilisation become policemen of the known galaxy?[/QUOTE] Well in the scenario that everyone keeps their home system's quiet they don't really need to be, but if everyone doesn't keep quiet about that then they simply win by being faster and more numerous than anyone else. The most technologically advanced civilisation would have the clear advantage. If they can travel 9 times as quickly as you then the uncertainty in their movement is 9 times as uncertain as yours which makes them 9 times harder to hit at a first order approximation. On top of that their weapons will be hitting you 9 times quicker than yours can hit them. They'll eliminate you long before you can eliminate them and it'll be in your best interest to NOT piss them off as a result. They wouldn't so much be interstellar policemen as interstellar gangsters on the street corner that you simply choose not to piss off because it won't work out in your favour.
But how do they make themselves known to everyone? you're trying to coerce an entire galaxy into submission remember a galaxy where nearly everyone can barely detect each other or know anything meaningful apart from they might be a threat
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437560]huh? They're like the lowest tech in interstellar travel.[/QUOTE] yeah this is what i meant [QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43437582]They are. Just hella hard to make, and generally a waste of resources.[/QUOTE] but it seems i've grossly underestimated the difficulty of making them anyway so i'm wrong
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