• Canada's ex-Defense Minister who ultimately shaped Canada's armed forces during the Cold War: Aliens
    240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437625]But how do they make themselves known to everyone?[/QUOTE] By turning up in your solar system mere hours behind their own light whereas everyone else will be turning up in solar systems so far behind their own light that anyone else could effectively mount a preemptive strike of the likes in that story you quoted.
are you guys arguing about how difficult it is to dodge theoretical weapons with very few well defined properties?
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437635]By turning up in your solar system mere hours behind their own light whereas everyone else will be turning up in solar systems so far behind their own light that anyone else could effectively mount a preemptive strike of the likes in that story you quoted.[/QUOTE] so essentially they're just another relativistic civilization exterminating other civilizations. some policemen
If i was a cosmic conglomerate of overpowerful space lizards, i think id be much more terrified of things like the human inability to agree on what the fuck reality is.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437646]so essentially they're just another relativistic civilization exterminating other civilizations. some policemen[/QUOTE] No, I'm saying THEY'D turn up in person, not their weapons. They'd turn up just marginally behind their own light and hopefully communicate quickly enough that they mean no harm (and that IF they did mean harm the people they're communicating with would stand no chance regardless).
If there truly was an intelligent alien race much further developed than ourselves and that knows of our existence, if they're not on the same level of intelligence as ourselves with the same limited means of exploring distant planets and lacking in experience of interacting with other intelligent races... it could be that they don't want their interference to hinder our natural development. If anyone is familiar with Arthur C. Clarke's work, what if we're in the same situation as Europa? What if intelligent races are perfectly aware of our existence, but interaction with us is prohibited until we ourselves advance to the same level as our surveyors. Maybe we're nothing more to them than monkeys are to us; a species that can't communicate with them on the same level. We could be seen as animals that needs to be given time to evolve on their own in their natural habitat if they are to ever advance to the same level, and outside influence might be seen as something that might hinder us from taking the necessary steps in our development.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437667]No, I'm saying THEY'D turn up in person, not their rockets. They'd turn up just marginally behind their own light and hopefully communicate quickly enough that they mean no harm (and that IF they did mean harm the people they're communicating with would stand no chance regardless).[/QUOTE] so race X detects race Y 14 light years away. Race X really doesn't like the fact that they predict they too would be detected within an indeterminate amount of time, and have to live with the knowledge that Race Y could perceive them too as a threat for an indefinite amount of time. Race X decides to act first and divert a significant amount of resources to make sure every significant orbital body in Race Y's solar system is destroyed before the same thing happens to them. How exactly is it ever possible to police this? You simply can't.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437667]No, I'm saying THEY'D turn up in person, not their weapons. They'd turn up just marginally behind their own light and hopefully communicate quickly enough that they mean no harm (and that IF they did mean harm the people they're communicating with would stand no chance regardless).[/QUOTE] What? How can you possibly hope to comprehend an alien mind in "mere hours".
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437597]Sending a 1500 ton relativistic bomb is hard enough, sending an entire invasion fleet to conquer and entire planet? lmao[/QUOTE] Sending a relativistic projectile is easy, hitting stuff with it is not. The slightest mistake and your RKV is gonna miss by various AUs. Congrats, you wasted a perfectly good interstellar engine. If you really, really hate them so much to want their planet reduced to an asteroid field, it's best to check out other solutions. [QUOTE]why is it habitable to us?[/QUOTE] Well, it already supports advanced life. Maybe it's not exactly what we're looking for, but it's already better than what we have in this system. [QUOTE]Why do we need slaves?[/QUOTE] Sex, obviously. [QUOTE]why do we want their ~water~?[/QUOTE] Because Miles Quaritch wills it. [QUOTE]So are nuclear weapons[/QUOTE] Which is why they aren't used on a regular basis, among other reasons.
Okay you maintain its possible to land a fleet of space marines into a planets SOI, but not a relativistic bomb okay...
he knows too much
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437500]Well no because we don't need to physically visit solar systems to discover them. The point of the case study of relativistic civilizations is that they're all hiding in their respective solar systems and then they suddenly annihilate any other detective civilizations within range of them before the same thing happens to them.[/QUOTE] They don't need to be physically here, but then they'd need to be within like 50 light-years of us to have detected our nuclear weapons today. And probably within 100 light-years to have detected our civilisation at all. (I was still on the topic of "aliens fear our nuclear weapons" actually)
Aliens should just give us sustainable fusion and decent batteries. Then we pretty much solve the energy crisis.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;43436044]Why would aliens be scared of us if obviously they'd be far more technologically advanced? War experience doesn't matter shit if you have better tech[/QUOTE] They're afraid chuck norris will bitch slap them back to the other side of the galaxy thats why.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437736]Okay you maintain its possible to land a fleet of space marines into a planets SOI, but not a relativistic bomb okay...[/QUOTE] To be fair you're PROBABLY not going to man an interstellar bomb, while you most likely WILL man an interstellar ship. Commands sent to an interstellar bomb to update its trajectory to hit its target if variables change will be delayed and confounded by a fairly large amount due to the time it takes you to receive the light to make the necessary updates and then the time it takes you to then send the commands back to the ship. If it's a ship over a bomb then you're removing a huge distance behind your ship between you and your homeworld that light is effectively required to cross twice to update the trajectory of the interstellar device.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437777]To be fair you're PROBABLY not going to man an interstellar bomb, while you most likely WILL man an interstellar ship. Commands sent to an interstellar bomb to update its trajectory to hit its target if variables change will be delayed and confounded by a fairly large amount due to the time it takes you to receive the light to make the necessary updates and then the time it takes you to then send the commands back to the ship. If it's a ship over a bomb then you're removing a huge distance behind your ship between you and your homeworld that light is effectively required to cross twice to update the trajectory of the interstellar device.[/QUOTE] Cool but people won't ever be manually flying interstellar ships so your point is moot. A computer will control both.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437736]Okay you maintain its possible to land a fleet of space marines into a planets SOI, but not a relativistic bomb[/QUOTE] Well, I said "other solutions", not necessarily armed dudes. Decelerate once you're close enough to the system, adjust your course accordingly once you have reached more conventional speeds, proceed with Operation Tungsten Poles From Orbit. On the other hand, if you decelerate your RKV until it becomes maneuverable enough, it kinda stops being an RKV. Bro do you even space warlord
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43437729]Sending a relativistic projectile is easy, hitting stuff with it is not. The slightest mistake and your RKV is gonna miss by various AUs. Congrats, you wasted a perfectly good interstellar engine. [/QUOTE] But it doesn't take much to adjust the flight path of something in space. A squirt from attitude jets from a light year away could adjust the target of an object by tens of thousands of kilometers. Planets orbit in very predictable paths, we've been able to map extrasolar planets orbital characteristics just by watching how they pass over their sun. It's [I]much[/I] harder to put an object into orbit than it is just to hit the damned thing. Space programs have lost several probes in their orbital insertions (The Mars Climate Orbiter was lost due to atmospheric stress when it was inserted too low due to a unit mix-up between Lockheed and NASA). You have to insert at just the right angle and speed or you'll overshoot or undershoot (into the atmosphere, and that's generally not a good thing). Want to hit it? Just mash the throttle from afar, pointing towards it. Add to that the [I]massive[/I] increase in mass required by a crew, their life support, accommodations (even it's just a bunch of cryo pods), their weaponry, and inner-system assets like spaceplanes, and you've got a [I]much[/I] harder to control vessel that requires far more fuel to steer and accelerate than say, a 15 ton titanium rod with some RCS thrusters on it.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43437800]Well, I said "other solutions", not necessarily armed dudes. Decelerate once you're close enough to the system, adjust your course accordingly once you have reached more conventional speeds, proceed with Operation Tungsten Poles From Orbit. On the other hand, if you decelerate your RKV until it becomes maneuverable enough, it kinda stops being an RKV. Bro do you even space warlord[/QUOTE] But you're maintaining that its easy enough to arrive into another solar system quick enough to land humans on another world and fly back - but it isn't to hit a planet within it with a lifeless missile that can have centuries or longer to hit its target. just calculate it beforehand jeez like they do with all spaceflight. You're making for a terrible space warlord. 3/10 would probably ignore and not exterminate.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437787]Cool but people won't ever be manually flying interstellar ships so your point is moot. A computer will control both.[/QUOTE] Well as long as we're making up ridiculous computers capable of performing calculations that would stump any modern day supercomputer while simultaneously managing to NOT overheat in space (which is, by the way, a shitty conductor of heat so any such hypothetical supercomputer probably would overheat before it reaches its target and makes its last course adjustments), and then make the necessary adjustments to the trajectory of this bomb, all while ignoring any repairs that might need to be made to the whole device along the way if something fucks up, then why can't we just make up the magical device that allows us to communicate the fact that we're not hostile to another species when we rock up 3 light days after our light originally did and they're ONLY JUST formulating their retaliation and haven't yet had a chance to build let alone launch it yet? This is all ridiculous hearsay and speculation. Both sides are making shit up to try and rationalise an ideology that they've both come up with as to how ALL LIFE in the universe is going to somehow act when it becomes spacefaring (which is insanely stupid to begin with) and either side is too stubborn to budge. I suggest caution when moving into space, but I don't for a second believe EVERYTHING is going to be hostile, and why do I believe that? Simply because it's too stressful of a way to exist believing that. I also advice caution when stepping out of my front door each day and I DO presume that everyone MIGHT mean me harm when I leave my front door but I don't linger on the thought or my life would be uncomfortably stressful. Do I think shutting ourselves in and never trying to communicate EVER because I might be wrong is feasible? No. For the same reason I don't shut myself in my house every day and refuse to venture out. Because life would be fucking boring with that mindset.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437877]Well as long as we're making up ridiculous computers capable of performing calculations that would stump any modern day supercomputer while simultaneously managing to NOT overheat in space (which is, by the way, a shitty conductor of heat so any such hypothetical supercomputer probably would overheat before it reaches its target and makes its last course adjustments), and then make the necessary adjustments to the trajectory of this bomb, all while ignoring any repairs that might need to be made to the whole device along the way if something fucks up, then why can't we just make up the magical device that allows us to communicate the fact that we're not hostile to another species when we rock up 3 light days after our light originally did and they're ONLY JUST formulating their retaliation and haven't yet had a chance to build let alone launch it yet? This is all ridiculous hearsay and speculation. Both sides are making shit up to try and rationalise an ideology that they've both come up with as to how ALL LIFE in the universe is going to somehow act when it becomes spacefaring (which is insanely stupid to begin with) and either side is too stubborn to budge. I suggest caution when moving into space, but I don't for a second believe EVERYTHING is going to be hostile, and why do I believe that? Simply because it's too stressful of a way to exist believing that. I also advice caution when stepping out of my front door each day and I DO presume that everyone MIGHT mean me harm when I leave my front door but I don't linger on the thought or my life would be uncomfortably stressful. Do I think shutting ourselves in and never trying to communicate EVER because I might be wrong is feasible? No. For the same reason I don't shut myself in my house every day and refuse to venture out. Because life would be fucking boring with that mindset.[/QUOTE] okay but having your space opera policemen wasn't such a problem huh its just the sad fact of life that relativistic weapons are the simplest, most easiest ways interstellar civilizations can interact with each other. "its going to be stressful" isn't an argument against anything of course its going to be fucking stressful knowing you've been detected by another sentient civilization. That is where this entire theory comes from.
[QUOTE=Saber15;43437811]But it doesn't take much to adjust the flight path of something in space.[/QUOTE] When said thing is going fast enough to feel time dilation, it is. Plus it's several lightyears away, the lag is gonna be [I]horrendous[/I]. And if you're advanced enough to have instant interstellar communication, AND a relativistic missile powerful enough to alter its vector that easily, you're once again into "why are we bothering to fight these shit-flinging monkeys?" territory. [QUOTE=NoDachi;43437812]But you're maintaining that its easy enough to arrive into another solar system quick enough to land humans on another world and fly back - but it isn't to hit a planet within it with a lifeless missile that [b]can have centuries or longer to hit its target.[/b][/QUOTE] Again, why the fuck should a civilization bother then? Taking a century to hit something with a near-lightspeed bullet means that your target is highly unlikely to ever be a threat. What sort of paranoid cunt destroys a planet because "They might attack us once our current generation is long dead. Maybe." [QUOTE]just calculate it beforehand jeez like they do with all spaceflight.[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand the difficulty involved in this sort of thing.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43437885]okay but having your space opera policemen wasn't such a problem huh[/QUOTE] No, it is. It's ALL ridiculous. Interstellar police is stupid, but it's only just as stupid as your notion of destroying an entire planet from afar. Having calculated EVERYTHING in advance before launching a relativistic kill vehicle is insanely unrealistic. The precision in measurements needed to accurately smash such a device into a planet over light years is insanely unrealistic. Hell, if you fired a railgun at somebody 10 kilometres away and it was travelling at, let's say arbitrarily, 1 km/s, and a 16 km/h wind picked up perpendicular to the vector your round is taking, the shot would wind up being an entire metre out at the target. That's sure as hell close enough to scare the shit out of your target, but you've still missed them by more than their arms length when outstretched. Now imagine you're firing over LIGHT YEARS and you're making calculations based on... what? Do you randomly have probes every light minute over the distance between you and your target? Or are you simply inferring the intensity of the solar wind as well as billions of other factors between you and your target? Your observations from your homeworld are not going to be anywhere near enough to accurately calculate the trajectory of a relativistic kill vehicle by plus or minus 6 thousand kilometes over light years (assuming the planet is Earth sized). All of this is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43437943]Again, why the fuck should a civilization bother then? Taking a century to hit something with a near-lightspeed bullet means that your target is highly unlikely to ever be a threat. What sort of paranoid cunt destroys a planet because "They might attack us once our current generation is long dead. Maybe."[/QUOTE] Why did your country bother to write its constitution hundreds of years ago [QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43437943]I don't think you understand the difficulty involved in this sort of thing.[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand space travel. If you're having to make massive course corrections during flight then you've done something incredibly stupid during launch and probably won't ever have the resource budget to ever attempt it.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43438010]No, it is. It's ALL ridiculous. Interstellar police is stupid, but it's only just as stupid as your notion of destroying an entire planet from afar. Having calculated EVERYTHING in advance before launching a relativistic kill vehicle is insanely unrealistic. The precision in measurements needed to accurately smash such a device into a planet over light years is insanely unrealistic. Hell, if you fired a railgun at somebody 10 kilometres away and it was travelling at, let's say arbitrarily, 1 km/s, and a 16 km/h wind picked up perpendicular to the vector your round is taking, the shot would wind up being an entire metre out at the target. That's sure as hell close enough to scare the shit out of your target, but you've still missed them by more than their arms length when outstretched. Now imagine you're firing over LIGHT YEARS and you're making calculations based on... what? Do you randomly have probes every light minute over the distance between you and your target? Or are you simply inferring the intensity of the solar wind as well as billions of other factors between you and your target? Your observations from your homeworld are not going to be anywhere near enough to accurately calculate the trajectory of a relativistic kill vehicle by plus or minus 6 thousand kilometes over light years (assuming the planet is Earth sized). All of this is ridiculous.[/QUOTE] This is like arguing that nuclear war is impossible because there's no way you could precisely hit a target in Russia with a gun in the US. Or you could stick engines on your projectile, and update its course mid-flight. You know, like a missile. As far as theoretical technology goes, kinetic impact weapons are low-tech. If you have the navigational capability to reach and land on another planet, you have more than enough to smack your ship (read: missile) into it instead.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43438010]No, it is. It's ALL ridiculous. Interstellar police is stupid, but it's only just as stupid as your notion of destroying an entire planet from afar. Having calculated EVERYTHING in advance before launching a relativistic kill vehicle is insanely unrealistic.[/QUOTE] why [QUOTE=sltungle;43438010]The precision in measurements needed to accurately smash such a device into a planet over light years is insanely unrealistic.[/QUOTE] why [QUOTE=sltungle;43438010]Now imagine you're firing over LIGHT YEARS and you're making calculations based on... what? Do you randomly have probes every light minute over the distance between you and your target? Or are you simply inferring the intensity of the solar wind as well as billions of other factors between you and your target? Your observations from your homeworld are not going to be anywhere near enough to accurately calculate the trajectory of a relativistic kill vehicle by plus or minus 6 thousand kilometes over light years (assuming the planet is Earth sized).[/QUOTE] why you're making grand claims here based on nothing at least I'm parroting respected astro-physicists.
[QUOTE=sltungle;43438010]No, it is. It's ALL ridiculous. Interstellar police is stupid, but it's only just as stupid as your notion of destroying an entire planet from afar. Having calculated EVERYTHING in advance before launching a relativistic kill vehicle is insanely unrealistic. The precision in measurements needed to accurately smash such a device into a planet over light years is insanely unrealistic. Hell, if you fired a railgun at somebody 10 kilometres away and it was travelling at, let's say arbitrarily, 1 km/s, and a 16 km/h wind picked up perpendicular to the vector your round is taking, the shot would wind up being an entire metre out at the target. That's sure as hell close enough to scare the shit out of your target, but you've still missed them by more than their arms length when outstretched. Now imagine you're firing over LIGHT YEARS and you're making calculations based on... what? Do you randomly have probes every light minute over the distance between you and your target? Or are you simply inferring the intensity of the solar wind as well as billions of other factors between you and your target? Your observations from your homeworld are not going to be anywhere near enough to accurately calculate the trajectory of a relativistic kill vehicle by plus or minus 6 thousand kilometes over light years (assuming the planet is Earth sized). All of this is ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Just put a computer in your missile so that it can correct its trajectory.
[QUOTE=catbarf;43438129]This is like arguing that nuclear war is impossible because there's no way you could precisely hit a target in Russia with a gun in the US. Or you could stick engines on your projectile, and update its course mid-flight. You know, like a missile. As far as theoretical technology goes, kinetic impact weapons are low-tech. If you have the navigational capability to reach and land on another planet, you have more than enough to smack your ship (read: missile) into it instead.[/QUOTE] seriously even on KSP you can see the basic mechanics of how easy it is to collide with a planet rather than safely enter its orbit. The only thing that changes with interstellar distances is the distance complexity of the calculations. Computer calculations are the easy part of all this. Making a rocket capable of such speeds is the tricky part.
[QUOTE=Gump;43437377]I think the point is these Aliens may be naturally peaceful creatures, therefore they might have the technology yet also have no intention of using it. If they saw mankind using it they might get scared because we are so careless and violent. Speaking hypothetically here, I don't think these aliens exist.[/QUOTE] I think it's more likely that they want to be peaceful but would be cautious. Wiping out another species wouldn't be cost effective so if an alien race was aware of us I think they'd be far more likely to give us a chance to advance and prove our intent first. (After all, they're more advanced already but that most certainly doesn't remotely mean we'll catch up.) So they could afford to give us a chance to advance and become more peaceful and then if we don't they can either wipe us out or simply not need to worry about us since we're so much less advanced than them. [QUOTE=NoDachi;43437456]"The most humbling feature of the relativistic bomb is that even if you happen to see it coming, its exact motion and position can never be determined" You can't 'dodge' them.[/QUOTE] Says our current understanding of physics. And our current understanding of physics has proven to be incomplete or inaccurate before. There's nothing to say that it won't prove incomplete or inaccurate in the future either.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;43438193]Says our current understanding of physics. And our current understanding of physics has proven to be incomplete or inaccurate before. There's nothing to say that it won't prove incomplete or inaccurate in the future either.[/QUOTE] I think our understanding of light-speed lag is pretty solid.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.