Canada's ex-Defense Minister who ultimately shaped Canada's armed forces during the Cold War: Aliens
240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sltungle;43437877]Well as long as we're making up ridiculous computers capable of performing calculations that would stump any modern day supercomputer while simultaneously managing to NOT overheat in space (which is, by the way, a shitty conductor of heat so any such hypothetical supercomputer probably would overheat before it reaches its target and makes its last course adjustments), and then make the necessary adjustments to the trajectory of this bomb, all while ignoring any repairs that might need to be made to the whole device along the way if something fucks up,[/QUOTE]
The problem with your argument is that you're making claims based off of what humans can achieve themselves. Innovations have proven that every 100 years something is invented that people would have otherwise considered to be near-theoretically impossible due to limited knowledge at the time. We're talking about species capable of interstellar travel and you're restricting their capacity based on the capabilities of humans today.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
It's a self-centered way of thinking.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;43438193]I think it's more likely that they want to be peaceful but would be cautious. Wiping out another species wouldn't be cost effective so if an alien race was aware of us I think they'd be far more likely to give us a chance to advance and prove our intent first. (After all, they're more advanced already but that most certainly doesn't remotely mean we'll catch up.) So they could afford to give us a chance to advance and become more peaceful and then if we don't they can either wipe us out or simply not need to worry about us since we're so much less advanced than them.[/QUOTE]
Thats the point. How do you ever know a distant civilizations intent. If you could, then the game theory dilemma falls apart because you can tell who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys.
But really, you're never going to be able to tell. You won't even be able to tell if they're capable of launching such an attack until its heading straight towards your solar system.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43438204]I think our understanding of light-speed lag is pretty solid.[/QUOTE]
But our understanding of quantum mechanics is not. What we do understand of it so far has a habit of being very out there and seemingly impossible.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;43438224]But our understanding of quantum mechanics is not. What we do understand of it so far has a habit of being very out there and seemingly impossible.[/QUOTE]
and this lends itself to detecting the exact speed, position and direction of RKVs?
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43438244]and this lends itself to detecting the exact speed, position and direction of RKVs?[/QUOTE]
Well there's quantum entanglement which we're just beginning to understand. I'm fairly sure a sufficiently advanced civilization could exploit quantum entanglement or maybe even some mechanic we don't even know of to do just that.
My point is simply that we can't assume that it's impossible because we don't have a complete understanding of the universe. For all I know it really is impossible. We just can't actually prove it is for the time being. It's simply impossible according to our [I]current[/I] understanding of things.
[QUOTE=catbarf;43438129]Or you could stick engines on your projectile, and update its course mid-flight. [b]You know, like a missile.[/b] As far as theoretical technology goes, kinetic impact weapons are low-tech.[/QUOTE]
Applying newtonian physics to relativistic ones? Sure, what could go wrong? (answer: a lot)
[QUOTE]If you have the navigational capability to reach and land on another planet, you have more than enough to smack your ship (read: missile) into it instead.[/QUOTE]
Except you don't approach planets at C-fractional speeds for a reason. Said reason being making sure you end up where you want instead of empty space.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43438126]Why did your country bother to write its constitution hundreds of years ago[/QUOTE]
1947 was hundreds of years ago? Man, time flies fast.
And because writing down the rights and duties of a population is not really comparable to genociding billions for what is essentially shits and giggles.
[QUOTE]If you're having to make massive course corrections during flight then you've [B]maybe got your calculations wrong by a ridiculously small fraction of a degree, resulting in your point of impact shifting by various thousands of kilometers[/B] and probably won't ever have the resource budget to ever attempt it.[/QUOTE]
Fixed that for you.
If you can calculate an interstellar shot so perfectly, you're probably going to use your resources in better, less retarded ways.
If you can't, RKVs are useless for you.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;43438277]It's simply impossible according to our [I]current[/I] understanding of things.[/QUOTE]
Our current understanding has been confirmed to enough decimal points that any revolutionary new theory that blows Einstein and Heisenberg out of the water is going to have to explain why they sure seemed to have it right the first time around.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;43438277]Well there's quantum entanglement which we're just beginning to understand. I'm fairly sure a sufficiently advanced civilization could exploit quantum entanglement or maybe even some mechanic we don't even know of to do just that.
My point is simply that we can't assume that it's impossible because we don't have a complete understanding of the universe. For all I know it really is impossible. We just can't actually prove it is for the time being. It's simply impossible according to our [I]current[/I] understanding of things.[/QUOTE]
sure but we always talk about what is possible with our current understanding of things otherwise we'd be stuck with fantasy.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;43435790]
They likely more would be thinking "They just now figured that out? Fuck's sake, they're dumb. Lets find a different planet that has a species like us."[/QUOTE]
Or they could going, "Huh, they figured out fission but not fusion, interesting."
I don't believe every species would follow the same technological progress we make, nor would we be able to understand them so this speculation is stupid at best.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438282]1947 was hundred of years ago? Man, time flies fast.
And because writing down the rights and duties of a population is not really comparable to genociding billions for what is essentially shits and giggles.[/QUOTE]
have you read a single thing?
let alone understand it lmao
"shits and giggles"
While we're talking about aliens and weapons.
I always thought it was weird in a couple of movies, when the alien invaded. They did it with ground forces. Wouldn't it just be simpler, to just annihilate every human from space instead? If they have the tech to even get here they surely have the tech to destroy humans, but not the planet.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438282]Applying newtonian physics to relativistic ones? Sure, what could go wrong? (answer: a lot)
Except you don't approach planets at C-fractional speeds for a reason. Said reason being making sure you end up where you want instead of empty space[/QUOTE]
I hope you understand that deceleration and orbital approach are the most complicated parts of space travel.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43438305]sure but we always talk about what is possible with our current understanding of things otherwise we'd be stuck with fantasy.[/QUOTE]
True but we are speculating about a potential alien race that has a far greater understanding of the universe than us. Erring on the side of caution would be the more advisable course of action in such a circumstance since the survival of our entire species could hinge on it.
[QUOTE=booster;43438324]While we're talking about aliens and weapons.
I always thought it was weird in a couple of movies, when the alien invaded. They did it with ground forces. Wouldn't it just be simpler, to just annihilate every human from space instead? If they have the tech to even get here they surely have the tech to destroy humans, but not the planet.[/QUOTE]
Technologically advanced aliens showing up on our doorstep in the first place is such a leap of logic that trying to analyze Hollywood aliens is a lost cause.
[QUOTE=booster;43438324]While we're talking about aliens and weapons.
I always thought it was weird in a couple of movies, when the alien invaded. They did it with ground forces. Wouldn't it just be simpler, to just annihilate every human from space instead? If they have the tech to even get here they surely have the tech to destroy humans, but not the planet.[/QUOTE]
no one wants to watch a movie that is about 20 seconds long of watching what appears to be a distant star twinkle and disappear as the planet is annihilated.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438282]Applying newtonian physics to relativistic ones? Sure, what could go wrong? (answer: a lot)
Except you don't approach planets at C-fractional speeds for a reason. Said reason being making sure you end up where you want instead of empty space.[/QUOTE]
This is a matter of complexity in calculation, not physical limitations. Fifty years ago we were able to take a spacecraft into orbit, then to the Moon, land on it, take off again, link with its mothership, and return to Earth using less computational power than you have on your cell phone today. And you're saying 'Not possible, too hard' for a hypothetical society thousands or millions of years more advanced than us? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;43438338]True but we are speculating about a potential alien race that has a far greater understanding of the universe than us. Erring on the side of caution would be the more advisable course of action in such a circumstance since the survival of our entire species could hinge on it.[/QUOTE]
sure this is just one theory of many.
But its currently the most compelling one we know because its the only one that approaches it from a logical and mathematical rationale. Something we assume/hope/don't hope is universal throughout the galaxy.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;43436132]Personal attacks aren't going to make you any friends, you know.
[sp]"Says the guy into MLP hurr"[/sp][/QUOTE]
the enemy of my enemy is my friend
[QUOTE=Asmaedus;43436356]God I haven't read this for about 5 years, thank you.
Now through reading this again I see a pretty big plot hole :(
[sp]The infallible predictor wrongly predicted that we would spill out and destroy the writers planet. Yet the next post says that we become cool dudes all about art.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Uh, it predicted correctly, the last line of the story.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43438349]no one wants to watch a movie that is about 20 seconds long of watching what appears to be a distant star twinkle and disappear as the planet is annihilated.[/QUOTE]
Now that I remember. There's this
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WomfhjyVM[/media]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43438320]have you read a single thing?
let alone understand it lmao
"shits and giggles"[/QUOTE]
Did you?
You're applying human logic to a hypothetical alien species, and you're assuming with absolute certainity that, should they be advanced enough to produce impossibly fast and accurate space vehicles, their only approach to other sentient civilizations would be "pulverize them before they do the same to us, even though we have no idea who they are, what do they think like, what are their intentions, etc".
And that they'd be ready to invest countless resources and crunch the ridiculous amount of numbers required for the annihilation of a planet, simply because we smell bad or something.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438500]Did you?
You're applying human logic to a hypothetical alien species, and you're assuming with absolute certainity that, should they be advanced enough to produce impossibly fast and accurate space vehicles, their only approach to other sentient civilizations would be "pulverize them before they do the same to us, even though we have no idea who they are, what do they think like, what are their intentions, etc".
And that they'd be ready to invest countless resources and crunch the ridiculous amount of numbers required for the annihilation of a planet, simply because we smell bad or something.[/QUOTE]
yep
but do you understand why it makes sense at a mathematical level yet?
there is nothing more threatening than the unknown.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438500]Did you?
You're applying human logic to a hypothetical alien species[/QUOTE]
Full stop. Logic is not an inherently human construct. Logic is a mathematical construct applied to the real world. A hypothetical species that has no concept of logic isn't going to be reaching the stars in the first place.
Game theory, again, is not a human construct, it's mathematical. It's a form of analysis to determine the least risky choice. Again, if a species has no mental process to weigh choices and make the best, the one most likely to result in the least long-term detriment, they won't be able to progress technologically in the first place.
Animals employ logic. Hell, [i]ants[/i] apply logic and make decisions. It may be on a purely unconscious, evolutionary, instinctual level but it is still there.
And game theory says, quite clearly, that the consequences for failing to act against a potential threat in an interstellar context are staggering. Any rational, logical being will arrive at the same conclusion.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43438514]but do you understand why it makes sense at a mathematical level yet?
there is nothing more threatening than the unknown.[/QUOTE]
Again, you assume they think like we do, or at least like we think they would.
And yes, the unknown is frightening. But this isn't really the case: if they know there's life on a planet, AND their stuff is precise enough to nail that planet with a big ole' RKV, their observation capabilities are probably high enough to determine whether their target is really an enemy or not.
Plus if they consider planetary annihilation the first thing to attempt in case of lifesigns somewhere, it's a wonder this species survived long enough to develop spaceflight. Heck, we humans have pretty much been on a MAIM KILL BURN bender since we exist, and even we aren't [I]that[/I] much of an interstellar asshole.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438638]Again, you assume they think like we do, or at least like we think they would.
And yes, the unknown is frightening. But this isn't really the case: if they know there's life on a planet, AND their stuff is precise enough to nail that planet with a big ole' RKV, their observation capabilities are probably high enough to determine whether their target is really an enemy or not.
Plus if they consider planetary annihilation the first thing to attempt in case of lifesigns somewhere, it's a wonder this species survived long enough to develop spaceflight. Heck, we humans have pretty much been on a MAIM KILL BURN bender since we exist, and even we aren't [I]that[/I] much of an interstellar asshole.[/QUOTE]
Sounds kinda like Ender's Game
[sp] Where the ants came to harvest our planet, and they don't communicate the same way we do. So they thought our planet didn't have sentient life. And when they found out it was already too late.[/sp]
[QUOTE=catbarf;43438571]And game theory says, quite clearly, that the consequences for failing to act against a potential threat in an interstellar context are staggering. Any rational, logical being will arrive at the same conclusion.[/QUOTE]
I don't recall it saying that genocide is the only option. If they're really rational and logical, chances are they don't go around blowing up planets willy-nilly.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=booster;43438681]Sounds kinda like Ender's Game
[sp] Where the ants came to harvest our planet, and they don't communicate the same way we do. So they thought our planet didn't have sentient life. And when they found out it was already too late.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Were those the ones that [sp]had a unified hivemind instead of individuals, and considered continent-shattering bombs as a way to say "hello"?[/sp]
[QUOTE=NoDachi;43436592]I've always liked this.[/QUOTE]
[quote]There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.
There is no policeman.
There is no way out.
And the night never ends.[/quote]
holy shit this quote
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438638]Plus if they consider planetary annihilation the first thing to attempt in case of lifesigns somewhere, it's a wonder this species survived long enough to develop spaceflight. Heck, we humans have pretty much been on a MAIM KILL BURN bender since we exist, and even we aren't [I]that[/I] much of an interstellar asshole.[/QUOTE]
If you think about it, even if they were hostile then annihilation still isn't the logical choice for them. If they're already more advanced than us then chances are they're always going to be more advanced than us. Diplomatically this gives them a lot more leverage. It would be more advantageous for them to let us exist and work out diplomatic sanctions and treaties that benefit them instead. If they killed us then they get our planet with its resources which are common elsewhere in the galaxy. If they don't they get any benefit they want that we're capable of providing. (Within reason though.)
Except they were scared shitless of us.
[QUOTE=Alice3173;43438811]If you think about it, even if they were hostile then annihilation still isn't the logical choice for them. If they're already more advanced than us then chances are they're always going to be more advanced than us. Diplomatically this gives them a lot more leverage. It would be more advantageous for them to let us exist and work out diplomatic sanctions and treaties that benefit them instead. If they killed us then they get our planet with its resources which are common elsewhere in the galaxy. If they don't they get any benefit they want that we're capable of providing. (Within reason though.)[/QUOTE]
It's quite a presumption to say a younger race isn't intelligence enough to catch up considering how fast we have advanced in a few hundred years. Remember that they are 'aliens' and probably think differently and on different levels. Just because someone spent thousands of years becoming the top dog on the block doesn't mean that a younger race could achieve sentience and suddenly outclass them within a few generations.
All any species needs to live is matter, and matter can be arranged in any format we need to live. Why would a species want some planet that is perfect for another species but not for them? The only thing other species have of value is their ideas, and those might be left behind.
None of what you said actually remotely proves that xenocide ISN'T logical.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.