Canada's ex-Defense Minister who ultimately shaped Canada's armed forces during the Cold War: Aliens
240 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SeamanStains;43438966]It's quite a presumption to say a younger race isn't intelligence enough to catch up considering how fast we have advanced in a few hundred years. Remember that they are 'aliens' and probably think differently and on different levels. Just because someone spent thousands of years becoming the top dog on the block doesn't mean that a younger race could achieve sentience and suddenly outclass them within a few generations.[/QUOTE]
It's quite presumptuous to assume that an advanced race isn't going to be advancing at least as fast as us anyways. Our own rate of advancement has exponentially increased over the past thousand years and only seems to be speeding up. What reason is there to believe an advanced race doesn't fall under the same principal? Especially since with interstellar travel they will vastly outnumber us in sheer numbers anyways.
Just because they're aliens doesn't mean they're totally different from us. As catbarf pointed out they're going to be about as logical as we are at the minimum. Otherwise they never would have advanced technologically in the first place.
[QUOTE=SexualShark;43435868]yeah
like an alien race would never possibly have some [B]even worse[/B] then a thermonuclear weapon?[/QUOTE]
If they're capable of timely interstellar travel, then all they have to do is accelerate a rock to those speeds and fling it at Earth, boom! Something far worse than any nuclear bomb we've ever created.
So, this is a load of shit from a demented old man.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438687]I don't recall it saying that genocide is the only option. If they're really rational and logical, chances are they don't go around blowing up planets willy-nilly.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
Were those the ones that [sp]had a unified hivemind instead of individuals, and considered continent-shattering bombs as a way to say "hello"?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Something like that I think, they did this planet harvesting thing constantly. And they never expected to meet any kind of resistance, so when they did they just fought the humans thinking the humans were also pawns under a hivemind. But they then realized that each human was a sentient being. But alas, before they could tell anyone their mistake, the humans wiped them out.[/sp]
It's scary to think this man was in charge of a countries military.
It's pretty obvious that everyone except me is a alien and you're all trying to hide it from me.
[QUOTE=Satansick;43439609]It's pretty obvious that everyone except me is a alien and you're all trying to hide it from me.[/QUOTE]
You're wrong Jason.
Go take one of your vitamin pills Jason.
Go and rest for a while Jason.
[quote]aliens saw the atomic bomb they decided that we were a great threat to the cosmos.[/quote]
how........ in 1945 we had to basically transport the bomb by freighter to the front, then lift it in a speacially modified aircraft that could barely take off with it.....
just the power alone required to travel here from anywhere in the galaxy in a reasonable amount of time would make the atomic bomb look like a AA battery
how threatening is a AA battery compaired to what technology they could be capable of, also if they have been here they could have been very kind to write out on a sticky note the exact conditions for fusion ignition, thats not even technology, just leave a tabulated set of data for fusion like a steam table and you would save us probably from global warming overnight
[QUOTE=Sableye;43440512]how........ in 1945 we had to basically transport the bomb by freighter to the front, then lift it in a speacially modified aircraft that could barely take off with it.....
just the power alone required to travel here from anywhere in the galaxy in a reasonable amount of time would make the atomic bomb look like a AA battery[/QUOTE]
Its one of those power trips people go through, just an extension of the idea that age old idea that we're the center of the universe.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=booster;43438324]While we're talking about aliens and weapons.
I always thought it was weird in a couple of movies, when the alien invaded. They did it with ground forces. Wouldn't it just be simpler, to just annihilate every human from space instead? If they have the tech to even get here they surely have the tech to destroy humans, but not the planet.[/QUOTE]
I think X-Files put it best, "You need to modify the planet before you invade it." The entire Mytharc were the greys preparing Earth for their return. Heating it up and giving out that virus to wipe out humanity. Any alien species doing a land invasion at all would have to deal with non-native viruses that they have no protection against and just shelling something doesn't automatically make everything dead inside. A war on an alien planet is tricky, at best. You have to have proper medical and physical protection. A space ship can just blow it up but if you want to colonize, you need ground control. Its the same reason we still use infantry instead of just rolling tanks everywehere, they're the ones able to hold ground.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
All that effort of invasion could be better put to use just, saying "Hey there...can we uh...trade or something?"
[QUOTE=minilandstan;43435767]That would imply aliens are above war.
Who knows, maybe they'd look at us and be all "Holy shit they turned atoms into bombs, we should totally make these guys our allies"[/QUOTE]
This. Honestly, we need to stop thinking of aliens as some hyper-advanced things that transcend all biological tendencies and instincts. aliens probably [I]are[/I] out there, blasting each other to bits for reasons that are just as stupid as the ones [I]we[/I] blast each other to bits over. When they look at our planet, they probably just see a reflection of their own conflicts, on a smaller scale.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438638]Again, you assume they think like we do, or at least like we think they would.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Again, this is not about how we think. This is about choice and risk. If you give an ant a sugar cube and a vegetable, it goes for the sugar cube. Why? Because it 'likes' it? Because it 'prefers' or 'chooses' sugar? No, those are anthropomorphic constructs that assume that an ant thinks like we do. But on a mathematical level, if we apply game theory, the sugar cube is the more beneficial long-term choice. The ant seeks to maximize its benefit, as all living things do, and so it takes the sugar.
An organism that does not behave in this way would act totally randomly and wouldn't be able to survive, let alone reproduce, let alone progress. Every organism on this planet seeks the most benefit for itself and its species. It is an essential characteristic of life.
[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;43438687]I don't recall it saying that genocide is the only option. If they're really rational and logical, chances are they don't go around blowing up planets willy-nilly.[/QUOTE]
At an interstellar scale, the consequences of a relativistic sneak attack are extinction. When two species meet the logical choice is to kill the enemy, or at least subjugate him to a manageable level. While the benefit of peaceful cooperation is greater, peaceful cooperation is not only going to be extraordinarily difficult between two completely different species, but when the stakes are this high the risk of total annihilation cannot be simply ignored. On average, a more aggressive posture should be less dangerous in the long-term.
That's leaving aside that, evolutionarily, a race that makes it to the stars has had to kill off all the other competing species on its homeworld, and wouldn't be colonizing space if there were no interest in expansion, so logically is going to be relatively aggressive and expansionist.
[QUOTE=slayer64;43441211]This. Honestly, we need to stop thinking of aliens as some hyper-advanced things that transcend all biological tendencies and instincts. aliens probably [I]are[/I] out there, blasting each other to bits for reasons that are just as stupid as the ones [I]we[/I] blast each other to bits over. When they look at our planet, they probably just see a reflection of their own conflicts, on a smaller scale.[/QUOTE]
if they're [I]seeing[/I] us period, they are not going to be impressed by anything, unless our human emotions are somehow rare and admirable in the universe (or alternatively, if life is as rare as the "pessimists" faction would say).
[QUOTE=slayer64;43441211]This. Honestly, we need to stop thinking of aliens as some hyper-advanced things that transcend all biological tendencies and instincts. aliens probably [I]are[/I] out there, blasting each other to bits for reasons that are just as stupid as the ones [I]we[/I] blast each other to bits over. When they look at our planet, they probably just see a reflection of their own conflicts, on a smaller scale.[/QUOTE]
On the contrary, given the size and age of the universe, while they're almost certainly out there, they're also likely too far away from us or each other, in both proximity and time, to encounter one another. If life existed near enough to interact, and in the same timeframe, we would see clear evidence around us.
But consider, though, that the universe is 13.8 billion years old. Humans as a species have been around for no more than 400,000 years- a tiny fraction of the age of the universe, not even 0.003%. And of that time, how long have we been 'modern', capable of interacting with space through radio signals? Not even a hundred years?
If an alien race showed up on Earth ten thousand years ago they'd find agrarian farming communities. If they show up ten thousand years from now we can only guess what they'll find. Twenty thousand years is a blink of an eye in cosmic terms. The point is, our own history shows society progressing at a scale that would make alien races existing near us and at a technology level such that we can interact with them nothing short of miraculous.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;43436152]Why? Why assume they haven't had similar experiences in their history? They likely have. Not to mention they basically HAVE to have gone through the same technological developments we have at some point in their history, so they'd almost certainly have developed something akin to atomic bombs.
If aliens exist I'm pretty sure they'd have wmd that could destroy entire planets.
[QUOTE=coldroll5;43441661]Why? Why assume they haven't had similar experiences in their history? They likely have. Not to mention they basically HAVE to have gone through the same technological developments we have at some point in their history, so they'd almost certainly have developed something akin to atomic bombs.
If aliens exist I'm pretty sure they'd have wmd that could destroy entire planets.[/QUOTE]
If they can go interstellar, then they can probably just grab some rocks from the asteroid belt and coax into a collision course. Simple and proven method
[QUOTE=BreenIsALie;43441816]If they can go interstellar, then they can probably just grab some rocks from the asteroid belt and coax into a collision course. Simple and proven method[/QUOTE]
There's no reason for them to do anything other than mine asteroids, there's nothing on Earth they can get easier elsewhere.
You guys seem to be forgetting a key point in that an extraterrestrial civilization would have developed in a completely different manner then ours. They would have different biology, different culture, and possibly even different technologies.
We are making the assumption that the aliens would behave as humans do, yet even humans have motivations beyond simple survival. A relativistic civilization could very well have... The motivation to do literally anything.
So while sending something such as an "invasion fleet" would seem impractical and wasteful to a society governed by who has more of wha,t who's to say a hypothetical alien civilization wouldn't find their own justification for it? Whether it be religion, some sort of manifest destiny like doctrine, or any of the other myriad possibilities.
The biggest thing people fail to factor in when discussing the impracticality of interstellar travel for alien civilizations is that they assume they have human emotions and motivations.
[QUOTE=danharibo;43441842]There's no reason for them to do anything other than mine asteroids, there's nothing on Earth they can get easier elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that too, My point was mainly that if they wanted us out of the picture, they would not really have to use any weapons, just dropping rocks would do
Maybe our ~hearts~ are unique in the galaxy or something. We could be the space version of Rhino horn :v:
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43441912]The biggest thing people fail to factor in when discussing the impracticality of interstellar travel for alien civilizations is that they assume they have human emotions and motivations.[/QUOTE]
At a very basic level if they don't share the same drive to survive, to grow, and to expand, we wouldn't encounter them. Societies with no desire to expand won't be sending scouts and colonists elsewhere. Species that don't fight tooth and nail to survive get exterminated by those that don't.
No matter how different another race is, the fact is that they [i]must[/i] be top dog in their little corner of the universe and aren't going to roll over and die because they [i]hoped[/i] diplomacy would solve their problems.
You're right that the exact motivation may differ ('Blindsight' by Peter Watts has a [i]fantastic[/i] example of this idea), but if the base behavior (expand, exploit, protect your own) is substantially different then logically they shouldn't exist.
[QUOTE=BreenIsALie;43441816]If they can go interstellar, then they can probably just grab some rocks from the asteroid belt and coax into a collision course. Simple and proven method[/QUOTE]
That implies slowing down from relativistic speeds in the first place to orbit our sun.
[QUOTE=catbarf;43441986]At a very basic level if they don't share the same drive to survive, to grow, and to expand, we wouldn't encounter them. Societies with no desire to expand won't be sending scouts and colonists elsewhere. Species that don't fight tooth and nail to survive get exterminated by those that don't.
No matter how different another race is, the fact is that they [i]must[/i] be top dog in their little corner of the universe and aren't going to roll over and die because they [i]hoped[/i] diplomacy would solve their problems.
You're right that the exact motivation may differ ('Blindsight' by Peter Watts has a [i]fantastic[/i] example of this idea), but if the base behavior (expand, exploit, protect your own) is substantially different then logically they shouldn't exist.[/QUOTE]
I didn't deny that the base instinctual motivation for survival would be universal for a dominant species.
I just said that, like humans, an alien civilization in all likelihood would be prone to motivations beyond simple survival.
I don't know why people discount someone who had this high of a position so quickly. I feel that anyone really high up could come out and make these claims but be discredited instantly because of this idea, which I think is stupid.
Personally I believe there are aliens here. For the argument saying "[B]They would have to travel millions of light years to get here[/B]", I think is a dumb argument. If they were truly as smart as we think they are, I would think they could bend space or open up some kind of wormhole instead of traveling in a STRAIGHT LINE across space.
To think so linearly and discredit all of the high up military or political figures who come out saying things like this is pretty stupid in my opinion.
[QUOTE=alexguydude;43442160]I don't know why people discount someone who had this high of a position so quickly. I feel that anyone really high up could come out and make these claims but be discredited instantly because of this idea, which I think is stupid.
Personally I believe there are aliens here. For the argument saying "[B]They would have to travel millions of light years to get here[/B]", I think is a dumb argument. If they were truly as smart as we think they are, I would think they could bend space or open up some kind of wormhole instead of traveling in a STRAIGHT LINE across space.
To think so linearly and discredit all of the high up military or political figures who come out saying things like this is pretty stupid in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
this would also mean that the aliens are time travelers.
It would also bring up the subject of precisely what would motivate an alien race to spend tremendous amounts of energy to travel to an inhabited planet from the past to quietly observe it and do weird science experiments for the interstellar equivalent of shits and giggles.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43442210]this would also mean that the aliens are time travelers.
It would also bring up the subject of precisely what would motivate an alien race to spend tremendous amounts of energy to travel to an inhabited planet from the past to quietly observe it and do weird science experiments for the interstellar equivalent of shits and giggles.[/QUOTE]
Not really..
We understand so little of quantum physics or of anything that there are probably endless possibilities.
If we can teleport a bit of data through quantum means I bet they can do similar things but on a much larger scale.
The point I am making is the argument always made is that "Even if they could go light speed, it would still take them millions of years to get here", which is really stupid to even say.
Grampa is already showing signs of advanced old age.
[QUOTE=alexguydude;43442247]Not really..
We understand so little of quantum physics or of anything that there are probably endless possibilities.
If we can teleport a bit of data through quantum means I bet they can do similar things but on a much larger scale.
The point I am making is the argument always made is that "Even if they could go light speed, it would still take them millions of years to get here", which is really stupid to even say.[/QUOTE]
traveling at FTL speeds means you are now traveling in time. The whole "twin in orbit" thought experiment comes to mind.
JohnnyMo or one of the other physics dudes on FP can elaborate but no information can ever go FTL without breaking physics.
Another point is that going lightspeed would take millions of years not simply due to the distance but the need for acceleration and deceleration at an acceptable speed unless you want the crew/equipment to become a fine liquid.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43442300]traveling at FTL speeds means you are now traveling in time. The whole "twin in orbit" thought experiment comes to mind.
JohnnyMo or one of the other physics dudes on FP can elaborate but no information can ever go FTL without breaking physics.
Another point is that going lightspeed would take millions of years not simply due to the distance but the need for acceleration and deceleration at an acceptable speed unless you want the crew/equipment to become a fine liquid.[/QUOTE]
What about the theory of wormholes?
[QUOTE=alexguydude;43442160]I don't know why people discount someone who had this high of a position so quickly. I feel that anyone really high up could come out and make these claims but be discredited instantly because of this idea, which I think is stupid.
Personally I believe there are aliens here. For the argument saying "[B]They would have to travel millions of light years to get here[/B]", I think is a dumb argument. If they were truly as smart as we think they are, I would think they could bend space or open up some kind of wormhole instead of traveling in a STRAIGHT LINE across space.
To think so linearly and discredit all of the high up military or political figures who come out saying things like this is pretty stupid in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
He's not a high up military or political figure anymore. He's an old man. And we all know what happens to old men that are jaded with life as it is.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43442300]JohnnyMo or one of the other physics dudes on FP can elaborate but no information can ever go FTL without breaking physics.[/QUOTE]
Note this part:
[QUOTE=alexguydude;43442247]If we can teleport a bit of data through quantum means I bet they can do similar things but on a much larger scale.[/QUOTE]
What he's talking about is instantaneous. Distance is irrelevant to this principle.
[QUOTE=alexguydude;43442325]What about the theory of wormholes?[/QUOTE]
It still travels in time.
Nothing can go FTL without breaking physics.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
quantum entanglement is not teleportation.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;43442345]It still travels in time.
Nothing can go FTL without breaking physics.
[editline]6th January 2014[/editline]
quantum entanglement is not teleportation.[/QUOTE]
Again, that's the stuff we know about.
We know the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this type of physics.
My point is when do we stop discrediting people and actually listen to them? Obviously there have been many higher up officials come out and say similar things to this, but we ignore them because they're "retired" or "old". They're not going to say it publicly when they find out unless they want to vanish the next day.
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