Porn and video game addiction are leading to 'masculinity crisis', says Stanford prison experiment p

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=bdd458;47704826]No, society needs to change which is my entire point we need to collectively look at American society and attempt to fix it. You're either purposefully missing the point and just threadshitting, or legitimately think that.

I really hope it's the former.[/QUOTE]

Good luck changing how your [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala"]Amygdala[/URL] (that is, emotional intelligence, your inner you) works.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704827]Nobody is blaming video games or shut ins. But video games help shut ins find comfort, making them remain shut ins.

We are just saying that a standard for masculinity doesn't prevent you from going outside, taking part in activities, not spending the whole day on games or other entertainment, not socialising.[/QUOTE]

Whats wrong with shut ins doing shit they enjoy? I'm not understanding what you're upset about here

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704827]Nobody is blaming video games or shut ins. But video games help shut ins find comfort, making them remain shut ins.

We are just saying that a standard for masculinity doesn't prevent you from going outside, taking part in activities, not spending the whole day on games or other entertainment, not socialising.[/QUOTE]

It DOES for people who don't conform to those standards, it does for people who have no other option but to run. No matter where you run to, you're going to run to the same place, where people are the same, and those same masculine standards are prevalent and harmful to those people.

You say "It's too bad, but we can't fix it". That's fucked up. We can fix it. We should fix it.

[editline]11th May 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704831]Good luck changing how your [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala"]Amygdala[/URL] (that is, emotional intelligence, your inner you) works.[/QUOTE]

So you think our current standard of society is a biological fact of how we act and there's nothing we can do to change it? That's kind of dumb. We can change how we function. We can change how society handles issues at an earlier age, changing how those pieces of the brain develop long term. We CAN change this. We should.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704829]It isn't about what one person can do, it's about what society can do to change itself.

You people keep saying 'Oh well it's too bad but you gotta deal with it'. You people are defeated. You have given up. You have said clearly that the suffering is fine, it's to be expected, and we shouldn't do anything about it.

Why should we give up? Why shouldn't we care?[/QUOTE]

I say - adapt. Don't fight a useless fight.
Ironically it's not a manly thing to say, but I don't really give a fuck. I am just more happy without that fight with an invisible enemy.
You can't reject the way the world works, it's pointless. It's like saying that you don't like how gravity works and complain that you can't walk on the ceiling. You can complain, but nothing will change.
Suffering to some degree is to be expected, life is harsh. You have to be ready.

You should care, but about real problems. People adressed them here: lack of support for men and children in general, ignorance of bullying.

[itisjuly]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704840]Whats wrong with shut ins doing shit they enjoy? I'm not understanding what you're upset about here[/QUOTE]
It's like saying what's wrong with alcoholics drinking what they enjoy? Excessive abuse is bad, no matter what it is.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47704818]Yeah I agree on that, men do not get enough support in the current system. But how do you actually achieve all that? If it's an issue many don't take seriously, how do you put it out as a legitimate issue?[/QUOTE]

By not having these conversations where people like yourself make it seem dumb to complain about these issues, where you call people victims for daring to speak out about their own experiences in these systems. By taking their problems seriously when they're presented rather than what we've seen in this thread.

[editline]11th May 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704858]I say - adapt. Don't fight a useless fight.
Ironically it's not a manly thing to say, but I don't really give a fuck. I am just more happy without that fight with an invisible enemy.
You can't reject the way the world works, it's pointless. It's like saying that you don't like how gravity works and complain that you can't walk on the ceiling. You can complain, but nothing will change.
Suffering to some degree is to be expected, life is harsh. You have to be ready.

You should care, but about real problems. People adressed them here: lack of support for men and children in general, ignorance of bullying.[/QUOTE]

So in your view, society has never changed or something?

These things change over time, by the activism of people invested in these issues. Or do you think women got the vote "just because"?

This is ridiculous. Social change occurs because people try to change things. Not because they give up and live with it as it is.

[itisjuly]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704864]By not having these conversations where people like yourself make it seem dumb to complain about these issues, where you call people victims for daring to speak out about their own experiences in these systems. By taking their problems seriously when they're presented rather than what we've seen in this thread.[/QUOTE]
You're twisting the shit out of what I'm saying.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47704861]It's like saying what's wrong with alcoholics drinking what they enjoy? Excessive abuse is bad, no matter what it is.[/QUOTE]

Well yeah but it's not alcohol that's to blame, it's whatever drove that person to alcoholism that's to blame.

You're blaming the symptom, not the cause.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704840]Whats wrong with shut ins doing shit they enjoy? I'm not understanding what you're upset about here[/QUOTE]

If a guy is living in his house, playing games and doing nothing else, and he is completely happy about it - I have nothing against him. I will personally disrespect him for not doing anything useful, I will not understand him or ever want to be around him. But I will not be against his way of life as it is a choice.

However when I was shut in I didn't feel happy. I was scared, anxious, with a feeling of guilt and emptiness inside of me. You could say the guilt comes from society's expectations of me. And it's true. Society expects you to not miss on your life, rightfully so.

I doubt there are any happy shut ins. By definition a shut in is someone with problems, they won't let them have peace.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47704871]You're twisting the shit out of what I'm saying.[/QUOTE]

I am not at all actually. You asked how we have these issues become seen as legitimate. I answered. By taking them fucking seriously.

That isn't twisting shit. Stop acting like a victim.

[itisjuly]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704872]Well yeah but it's not alcohol that's to blame, it's whatever drove that person to alcoholism that's to blame.

You're blaming the symptom, not the cause.[/QUOTE]
Alcohol keeps them going. What drove them to alcohol might be long gone but they're hooked and do not wish to look at things in a sober way.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704845]It DOES for people who don't conform to those standards, it does for people who have no other option but to run. No matter where you run to, you're going to run to the same place, where people are the same, and those same masculine standards are prevalent and harmful to those people.
[/QUOTE]

If wherever you go everyone bullies you - there is a pattern. It means the problem is in YOU and there is no excuse.

You adapt and overcome or suffer, that's life.

[CoolKingKaso]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47704709]How is being a shut in a preferable alternative?[/QUOTE]

I think that it's the fault of the press. They have a tendency to over-exaggerate reports that the world is hazardous; filled with child molesters, rapists, killer cops, murderers, drug addicts, etc.

It likely gives everyone the impression that those dangerous events occur constantly outside. This makes either parents monitor their child heavily or leave them sheltered.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704878] I will personally disrespect him for not doing anything useful, I will not understand him or ever want to be around him. .[/QUOTE]

You realise this exact attitude is why they end up so entrenched in that way of life in the first place don't you?

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704878]If a guy is living in his house, playing games and doing nothing else, and he is completely happy about it - I have nothing against him. I will personally disrespect him for not doing anything useful, I will not understand him or ever want to be around him. But I will not be against his way of life as it is a choice.

However when I was shut in I didn't feel happy. I was scared, anxious, with a feeling of guilt and emptiness inside of me. You could say the guilt comes from society's expectations of me. And it's true. Society expects you to not miss on your life, rightfully so.

I doubt there are any happy shut ins. By definition a shut in is someone with problems, they won't let them have peace.[/QUOTE]

So you can speak for ALL shut ins because you went through that, but I can't speak for anyone effected by toxic masculinity because it's JUST my experience?

You do realize you are a massive, and unreasonable hypocrite, right?

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704872]Well yeah but it's not alcohol that's to blame, it's whatever drove that person to alcoholism that's to blame.

You're blaming the symptom, not the cause.[/QUOTE]

Still it's a choice to be addicted to anything. You can blame the drunk guy. Initially he was a victim, but when it's a habbit it's his choice.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704888]If wherever you go everyone bullies you - there is a pattern. It means the problem is in YOU and there is no excuse.

You adapt and overcome or suffer, that's life.[/QUOTE]

So you really don't understand bullying?

That never happened to me, but it happens to people. Of no fault of their own.

[itisjuly]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704902]Still it's a choice to be addicted to anything. You can blame the drunk guy. Initially he was a victim, but when it's a habbit it's his choice.[/QUOTE]
Not really. Addictions can get to such a level that it is no longer your choice.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704890]You realise this exact attitude is why they end up so entrenched in that way of life in the first place don't you?[/QUOTE]

Yeah. That's exactly what they deserve.

It's foolish to think that if all people avoid you it's the problem of society, not you. If you are a shut in expect to be treaten like such.

Or should people dance around you just because you are disadvantaged?

That's egoism. "Yeah I am a shut in, but why should I suffer the consequences of becoming one? Cherish me and be social with me even though I am not social with you. Oh you don't want to? The society is sure fucked!"

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704914]Yeah. That's exactly what they deserve.

It's foolish to think that if all people avoid you it's the problem of society, not you. If you are a shut in expect to be treaten like such.

Or should people dance around you just because you are disadvantaged?

That's egoism. "Yeah I am a shut in, but why should I suffer the consequences of becoming one? Cherish me and be social with me even though I am not social with you. Oh you don't want to? The society is sure fucked!"[/QUOTE]

No just don't be an aggressive tit to people who don't fit masculine expectations, it's really that simple. You'd probably find a lot of shut in types would be a lot less shut in if people stopped.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704892]So you can speak for ALL shut ins because you went through that, but I can't speak for anyone effected by toxic masculinity because it's JUST my experience?

You do realize you are a massive, and unreasonable hypocrite, right?[/QUOTE]

I said that I think so. It's my personal opinion and I am going to stick with it. Its really up to you to agree or diasgree here, but either way it doesn't prove your point.

[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47704910]Not really. Addictions can get to such a level that it is no longer your choice.[/QUOTE]

Yeah that's probably a bad example.

Well, then strating to drink sorrows away is the choice then.

[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704923]No just don't be an aggressive tit to people who don't fit masculine expectations, it's really that simple. You'd probably find a lot of shut in types would be a lot less shut in if people stopped.[/QUOTE]

Probably, yes.

That again is a thing a shut in can't change, but he can change himself.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704914]Yeah. That's exactly what they deserve.

It's foolish to think that if all people avoid you it's the problem of society, not you. If you are a shut in expect to be treaten like such.

Or should people dance around you just because you are disadvantaged?

That's egoism. "Yeah I am a shut in, but why should I suffer the consequences of becoming one? Cherish me and be social with me even though I am not social with you. Oh you don't want to? The society is sure fucked!"[/QUOTE]

As opposed to your view of "No one has ever wronged you and you have brought everything you have ever suffered upon yourself"? Yes, I guess we should all give up and never try and change society. Black people should never have been let out of slavery, women should never have gotten the vote, chinese people should have remained ghettoized in their own communities? Should any social group oppressed or suffering have not tried to change their circumstances?

[editline]11th May 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704928]I said that I think so. It's my personal opinion and I am going to stick with it. Its really up to you to agree or diasgree here, but either way it doesn't prove your point.
[/QUOTE]

So you're totally okay with being a hypocrite, insulting and deriding me for making claims based on my experiences, but you'll do the same with out a hint of shame or self awareness that you are a hypocrite for doing so?

You'll even go farther than I ever went with my claims, as you chose to speak for ALL shut ins. This is just too good.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704928]

Probably, yes.

That again is a thing a shut in can't change, but he can change himself.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think they should take a horrible unpleasant life of trying to fit in with ridiculous expectations? Why are they somehow wrong for not doing this?

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704940]As opposed to your view of "No one has ever wronged you and you have brought everything you have ever suffered upon yourself"? Yes, I guess we should all give up and never try and change society. Black people should never have been let out of slavery, women should never have gotten the vote, chinese people should have remained ghettoized in their own communities? Should any social group oppressed or suffering have not tried to change their circumstances?

[editline]11th May 2015[/editline]

So you're totally okay with being a hypocrite, insulting and deriding me for making claims based on my experiences, but you'll do the same with out a hint of shame or self awareness that you are a hypocrite for doing so?

You'll even go farther than I ever went with my claims, as you chose to speak for ALL shut ins. This is just too good.[/QUOTE]

And again you twist my words. I never said that you are to be blamed for all bad things happening to you.

Changing society is good, I just find this exact idea to be impossible to achieve and I would oppose it by all means.

Also, it's up to everyone if they want to change society. Historically speaking it's gonna take you your whole life to maybe, just maybe, start a change. The change will most likley not happen, and if it does, it will happen years after you die.
My personal answer in that case: no, I don't want to fight that fight. I have got better things to do with my life, I like the current state of things, I don't think I belong to an oppressed group.

Your answer can be different of course. Go on and try to change society. I sincerely hope you not succeed at that.

[IlluminatiRex]

Look, I'm majoring in Anthropology. For those that don't know, Anthropology is the study of human culture. One of the major facets of cultures is that they change, gender norms change, traditions changes, dress changes, all of that changes with time and when people feel it should change.

So I really don't understand these claims of "oh well, that's how it is, suck it up and deal with it".

[editline]11th May 2015[/editline]

and so what if that change takes a long time? Doesn't make that change any less worthwhile.

[itisjuly]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704964]Why do you think they should take a horrible unpleasant life of trying to fit in with ridiculous expectations? Why are they somehow wrong for not doing this?[/QUOTE]
Name these ridiculous expectations? Most people are doing just fine so they don't seem all that ridiculous.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704940]
So you're totally okay with being a hypocrite, insulting and deriding me for making claims based on my experiences, but you'll do the same with out a hint of shame or self awareness that you are a hypocrite for doing so?

You'll even go farther than I ever went with my claims, as you chose to speak for ALL shut ins. This is just too good.[/QUOTE]

The difference is that you generalize on all society based on your personal experiences.
I only generalise saying that most shut ins are not happy.
If we assume there are 10 million shut ins in the world, you are still generalising around 7 000 000 0 times more people.
I also fail to see how I am a hypocrite.

[IlluminatiRex]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47704992]Name these ridiculous expectations? Most people are doing just fine so they don't seem all that ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
This is the same logic people used to oppose various women's rights movements.

And they have been named, and the biggest culprit is "man up"; suppress your emotions and just suck it up, don't be sensitive and caring, instead focus on being a man.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704964]Why do you think they should take a horrible unpleasant life of trying to fit in with ridiculous expectations? Why are they somehow wrong for not doing this?[/QUOTE]

They can choose. Live the horrible unpleasant life of a shut in (assuming they are that type of shut in) or take the risk and try to get a happy life. Any kind of man can find others of same kind and be happy in their group, shut ins included. There is just no possiblity that the person will not fit absolutely anywhere on earth. If that happens I would suggest that person to just suicide because personally I wouldnt be able to bear that load.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704981]And again you twist my words. I never said that you are to be blamed for all bad things happening to you.

Changing society is good, I just find this exact idea to be impossible to achieve and I would oppose it by all means.

Also, it's up to everyone if they want to change society. Historically speaking it's gonna take you your whole life to maybe, just maybe, start a change. The change will most likley not happen, and if it does, it will happen years after you die.
My personal answer in that case: no, I don't want to fight that fight. I have got better things to do with my life, I like the current state of things, I don't think I belong to an oppressed group.

Your answer can be different of course. Go on and try to change society. I sincerely hope you not succeed at that.[/QUOTE]

Okay.

Here you are, admitting that you think trying to change how men are toxic towards all people who fail to fit in to your definition of masculinity is just wrong. Why? Why is that wrong to change? What about your view of masculinity is so great, and so objectively true, that no one can even DARE argue with you about it? You're so steadfast in your belief that this is a positive thing for ALL people to go through based on your anecdote, yet you were so steadfast in your belief that I was wrong for basing ANY of my views on my experiences.

Do you see this as the hypocrisy it is? It's blatant, and obvious hypocrisy.