• Porn and video game addiction are leading to 'masculinity crisis', says Stanford prison experiment p
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[QUOTE=itisjuly;47704992]Name these ridiculous expectations? Most people are doing just fine so they don't seem all that ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Being muscular, aggressive and dominant without exception? Not being open about your emotions? Having to deal with everything yourself without help otherwise you're considered a faggot? Some people just don't enjoy being like that, I mean why do you think Japan has such a big problem with hikkis?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705000]The difference is that you generalize on all society based on your personal experiences. I only generalise saying that most shut ins are not happy. If we assume there are 10 million shut ins in the world, you are still generalising around 7 000 000 0 times more people. I also fail to see how I am a hypocrite.[/QUOTE] Failing to see your own hypocrisy is really all on you. It's obvious for anyone else to see.
[QUOTE=bdd458;47704982]e] and so what if that change takes a long time? Doesn't make that change any less worthwhile.[/QUOTE] It does make your life horrible though. If someone is willing to accept the incredible hardships - good on them. But thats not a cause I would fight for, for sure.
[QUOTE=bdd458;47705003]This is the same logic people used to oppose various women's rights movements. And they have been named, and the biggest culprit is "man up"; suppress your emotions and just suck it up, don't be sensitive and caring, instead focus on being a man.[/QUOTE] worked fine for a few millennia don't you think?
[QUOTE=bdd458;47705003]This is the same logic people used to oppose various women's rights movements. And they have been named, and the biggest culprit is "man up"; suppress your emotions and just suck it up, don't be sensitive and caring, instead focus on being a man.[/QUOTE] This is nothing like womens rights. You can't just grant men the rights to not fit masculinity stereotypes. This is a completely different issue compared to womens rights.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705014]They can choose. Live the horrible unpleasant life of a shut in (assuming they are that type of shut in) or take the risk and try to get a happy life. Any kind of man can find others of same kind and be happy in their group, shut ins included. There is just no possiblity that the person will not fit absolutely anywhere on earth. If that happens I would suggest that person to just suicide because personally I wouldnt be able to bear that load.[/QUOTE] Why should anyone take you seriously if you think people who struggle to fit in should just kill themselves?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705020]Being muscular, aggressive and dominant without exception? Not being open about your emotions? Some people just don't enjoy being like that, I mean why do you think Japan has such a big problem with hikkis?[/QUOTE] Didn't we all mention some people who are not muscular, aggressive or dominant and still doing ok?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705014] If that happens I would suggest that person to just suicide because personally I wouldnt be able to bear that load.[/QUOTE] What a healthy attitude
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47705027]This is nothing like womens rights. You can't just grant men the rights to not fit masculinity stereotypes. This is a completely different issue compared to womens rights.[/QUOTE] In a sense, yes, it is different. But it is also the same in others. It is a fight about how people are to be perceived by other people. You don't need to grant them a right, you just need to have people not be dismissive and cruel about mens issues. That's a smaller change than giving someone a right, and you're pretty much saying it's a worthless fight? Okay. [editline]11th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Melnek;47705024]worked fine for a few millennia don't you think?[/QUOTE] So did people being slaves appeals to tradition are so fucking weak.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705032]Why should anyone take you seriously if you think people who struggle to fit in should just kill themselves?[/QUOTE] Well people who can't get along with ANYONE out of the 7bn population are bound to live an unhappy life. Personally I wouldn't be able to handle that (I think). Because I had depression at some point and it [i]felt[/i] like I can't fit in anywhere and its really a feeling that makes you wanna die. Even the saddest artists like Brodsky (his texts are all about sad sad sad loneliness hate misunderstanding unjustice etc etc) had friends.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705020]Being muscular, aggressive and dominant without exception? Not being open about your emotions? Having to deal with everything yourself without help otherwise you're considered a faggot? Some people just don't enjoy being like that, I mean why do you think Japan has such a big problem with hikkis?[/QUOTE] That's the worst case scenario if we don't address the issues now.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705036]Didn't we all mention some people who are not muscular, aggressive or dominant and still doing ok?[/QUOTE] There's exceptions but in general it's harder to get respect as a man if you aren't. The only people I've seen who managed to get by without where fairly attractive and just sort of got away with it on that basis, a lot of shut in types tend to be fairly ugly looking, thus the difference in experience.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705020]Being muscular, aggressive and dominant without exception? Not being open about your emotions? Having to deal with everything yourself without help otherwise you're considered a faggot?[/QUOTE] Is being muscular expected of men? It is expected of everyone to be fit but the muscular part as an expectation is new to me. I don't understand the help part either, I ask my friends help all the time and so do they and our friendship strengthens even more, nothing faggoty about it. [QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705020] Some people just don't enjoy being like that, I mean why do you think Japan has such a big problem with hikkis?[/QUOTE] It's because japan has fucked up work ethic which leads to depression, their idols look like ladyboys. There's nothing masculine about it according to the west.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705047] So did people being slaves appeals to tradition are so fucking weak.[/QUOTE] you know what's even weaker? disproportionate analogies
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705047]In a sense, yes, it is different. But it is also the same in others. It is a fight about how people are to be perceived by other people. You don't need to grant them a right, you just need to have people not be dismissive and cruel about mens issues. That's a smaller change than giving someone a right, and you're pretty much saying it's a worthless fight? Okay. [/QUOTE] So you admitted that the problem is not with the standard, but with cruelty and ignorance. Also itisjuly is right, you are not fighting for a right. You can't pass a bill "now all men expectations are gone".
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705024]worked fine for a few millennia don't you think?[/QUOTE] Except not really because there hadn't been a single dominant culture over the last few millennia; The Romans, various Greek city states, Holy Roman Empire, Celtic Civilizations, Gaulish Civilizations, Germanic Civilizations, all of them and more had their own view of manhood and male and female gender roles. In the US, what we have now is fairly recently from around the 1950s or so. And even if there had been a single set of male gender roles over a few millennia, so what? Tradition is no reason to keep on doing something. That's one of the first logical fallacies I ever learned about in my English classes. [QUOTE=itisjuly;47705027]This is nothing like womens rights. You can't just grant men the rights to not fit masculinity stereotypes. This is a completely different issue compared to womens rights.[/QUOTE] No I said your logic is the same as those who oppose(d) changing gender roles for women. This might come as a shock, but gender roles don't exist in a vacuum for their respective gender. They have effects on both genders, positive and negative. You can't look at one without looking at the other.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705055]Well people who can't get along with ANYONE out of the 7bn population are bound to live an unhappy life. Personally I wouldn't be able to handle that (I think). Because I had depression at some point and it [i]felt[/i] like I can't fit in anywhere and its really a feeling that makes you wanna die. Even the saddest artists like Brodsky (his texts are all about sad sad sad loneliness hate misunderstanding unjustice etc etc) had friends.[/QUOTE] You're saying no one should fight for those people, no one should help them, and the fight to help them is not only worthless, but wrong to fight for. That to me is so wrong, and so vile. I think earlier I said I don't think anyone here is evil or intentionally hurtful, but you seem to be intentionally hurtful.
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705072]you know what's even weaker? disproportionate analogies[/QUOTE] It's not really, the point is that just because it worked in the past doesn't mean it's a good thing.
[QUOTE]Giving an example of the mindset of a gaming and pornography-addicted young man, he says: "When I'm in class, I'll wish I was playing World of Warcraft. When I'm with a girl, I'll wish I was watching pornography, because I'll never get rejected."[/QUOTE] so the best example for this "crisis" he could find was a kid who would rather being doing something recreational than sitting under some florescent lights and writing notes until his hand is sore, and who get's hurt by rejection? jesus christ, imagine how pretentious this psychologist must be
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705075]So you admitted that the problem is not with the standard, but with cruelty and ignorance. Also itisjuly is right, you are not fighting for a right. You can't pass a bill "now all men expectations are gone".[/QUOTE] So it's an even easier fight to have precisely because of that so what's the issue? Why are you so against anyone even daring fight you on this?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47705068]Is being muscular expected of men? It is expected of everyone to be fit but the muscular part as an expectation is new to me. I don't understand the help part either, I ask my friends help all the time and so do they and our friendship strengthens even more, nothing faggoty about it. It's because japan has fucked up work ethic which leads to depression, their idols look like ladyboys. There's nothing masculine about it according to the west.[/QUOTE] Yes and their work ethic is fucked in regards to men, you don't see much about female hikkis. The thing in this thread is a similar thing, western expectations for men are too much for some and some eventually just opt out.
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705072]you know what's even weaker? disproportionate analogies[/QUOTE] You're appealing to tradition to say that there is no positive change to be made to the current perception of men. Care to explain how that appealing to tradition is a strong argument for that, let alone anything? Because it's not a strong argument and you're not giving a better one here instead you're just quipping.
[QUOTE=Swilly;47703890]Those are symptoms. You don't blame the drug on for addicting the drug addict, you place the blame on the addictive personality syndrome. Trying to fight these addictions won't stop them and might make them more prevalent. And because when you drag in and state a nebulous topic like masculinity, you drag in all this other shit as well.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704022]I think no ones talking about that because it's pretty hard to argue with. Spending 15/24's of your day doing any one thing that isn't a productive task, is probably not good for you on any level.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=bdd458;47704039]You continue to blatantly ignore what's posted. He said that porn and video games are what is causing a crisis of masculinity, which by the way, is, what [I]I countered by saying that's not what is causing it and then talked about what's actually causing a crisis of masculinity.[/I][/QUOTE] I don't know what MuffinZerg is on about so don't take this in the context of anything he's saying. But, when people are saying that this psychologist is wrong because this perceived 'death of masculinity' is really just the damage caused by societal gender roles, they are outright missing the point of the article and arguing against it without supplying any argument. There've been a lot of proclamations in this thread followed by furious circlejerking, not a whole lot of argument or evidence. The thing people seem to keep ignoring is that this study is describing a [I]recent[/I] trend. If you want to say that men being increasingly asocial, asexual, and unmotivated is the product of the pressures of traditional gender roles, you have to explain why this is becoming an increasing problem, because it's not like men not being allowed to cry started in the early 2000s. So some, like Swilly, say that that's because the addictions are the symptom and those societal pressures are the cause. Fair enough. It seems plausible that the easy escape the Internet offers would take the place of more social forms of relieving stress and create a feedback loop where people wall themselves off from others. But with human psychology being what it is, where even ordinary people with satisfying lives can fall prey to addiction, that's not a guarantee. It's a claim that needs support, not 'my assertion is as good as your evidence', because there have been plenty of arguments made that the addictive properties of gaming, the Internet, and porn can contribute to their abuse as a form of recreation and eventually addiction, even without outside pressures. And more than that, even if Internet/gaming/porn addictions and the resulting social damage are the product of social expectations placed on men, that's not an invalidation or refutation of this psychologist's conclusions. He's suggesting that parents watch their children and try to steer them away from addictive behaviors. That's not much different from parents watching their children to keep them away from drugs, which is sound advice even though it is generally recognized that drug addiction is often the product of social pressures and not a cause in of itself. This is not a demonization of the Internet, porn, or video games. It's not telling you you ought to ban them for the sake of the children. It's not a Buzzfeed article lamenting the death of chivalry and manliness in nostalgic terms, nor is it suggesting that electronic entertainment is the sole root cause bar none of these social problems. It's identifying a trend, identifying a probable immediate cause due to addictive behavior, and proscribing a remedy that's a hell of a lot easier to implement than 'overturn gendered social constructs, wait a few decades'. If you are stating that the conclusion of the author is wrong because men aren't allowed to cry or put family above work, you have missed the point of the study entirely.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705086]You're saying no one should fight for those people, no one should help them, and the fight to help them is not only worthless, but wrong to fight for. That to me is so wrong, and so vile. I think earlier I said I don't think anyone here is evil or intentionally hurtful, but you seem to be intentionally hurtful.[/QUOTE] I am saying you shouldnt fight for an abstract idea or try to change human nature. You should fight for support for these people! To create an organisation for that, to write helpful books, to organise meetups. I dunno, something like that. Promote self defense classes for people. Create an organization that allows disadvantaged bullied guys to meet a strong guy thats willing to help. That will do actual good. Arguing that all people on earth think in a wrong way is not going to get any actual good, for anyone. I just got a startup idea actually. A website where bullied people can sign up under anonimity and place a request for help. People willing to help (preferably buff guys) can sign up too without anonimity and browse requests for help in that area. They can chat with people that created requests, find out the problem, meet in real life and help the bullied guys (and beat up the bully if required). I might actually work on it.
[QUOTE=bdd458;47705083]Except not really because there hadn't been a single dominant culture over the last few millennia; The Romans, various Greek city states, Holy Roman Empire, Celtic Civilizations, Gaulish Civilizations, Germanic Civilizations, all of them and more had their own view of manhood and male and female gender roles. In the US, what we have now is fairly recently from around the 1950s or so. And even if there had been a single set of male gender roles over a few millennia, so what? Tradition is no reason to keep on doing something. That's one of the first logical fallacies I ever learned about in my English classes.[/QUOTE] what connection does a dominant civilization have to your point even? how is just manning up, growing thicker skin and not being a push-over in your young adult years have anything to do with the fucking Celtics man seriously tradition isn't a reason to keep on doing something, but it's not a reason to stop doing something either in an of itself. if someone is having a rough time adjusting to society maybe he should cope with it in one way or another instead of asking for society to change FOR him?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705099]Yes and their work ethic is fucked in regards to men, you don't see much about female hikkis. The thing in this thread is a similar thing, western expectations for men are too much for some and some eventually just opt out.[/QUOTE] The reason for a lot less female hikkis because women can a lot easier find a man compared to a man finding a woman. Same reason in the west there's a lot less socially inept women compared to men. Because men want women and women can choose. Chances are, if you're average or better woman you will find a partner easily. That means you won't be a shut in. As long as men are horny, women will not become shut ins.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705093]So it's an even easier fight to have precisely because of that so what's the issue? Why are you so against anyone even daring fight you on this?[/QUOTE] Because I like the way it is. The current standards are shaping a better me, following them (which I do naturally) brings me recogniton and friends. If it all changes I will not be happy because I am at no disadvantage.
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705127]what connection does a dominant civilization have to your point even? how is just manning up, growing thicker skin and not being a push-over in your young adult years have anything to do with the fucking Celtics man seriously tradition isn't a reason to keep on doing something, but it's not a reason to stop doing something either in an of itself. if someone is having a rough time adjusting to society maybe he should cope with it in one way or another instead of asking for society to change FOR him?[/QUOTE] Except it's not being asked to change for one man, it's being asked to change for multiple people.
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705127]what connection does a dominant civilization have to your point even? how is just manning up, growing thicker skin and not being a push-over in your young adult years have anything to do with the fucking Celtics man seriously tradition isn't a reason to keep on doing something, but it's not a reason to stop doing something either in an of itself. if someone is having a rough time adjusting to society maybe he should cope with it in one way or another instead of asking for society to change FOR him?[/QUOTE] More than one person is being effected by this so asking society to change for THEM isn't really that big of a deal when we're not asking for much of anything.
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705127]what connection does a dominant civilization have to your point even? how is just manning up, growing thicker skin and not being a push-over in your young adult years have anything to do with the fucking Celtics man seriously tradition isn't a reason to keep on doing something, but it's not a reason to stop doing something either in an of itself. if someone is having a rough time adjusting to society maybe he should cope with it in one way or another instead of asking for society to change FOR him?[/QUOTE] It's a strange passive paradigm of mind where people feel entitled that the world should change for them, basically earth should rotate around their persona. I never understood it. [editline]12th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705143]More than one person is being effected by this so asking society to change for THEM isn't really that big of a deal when we're not asking for much of anything.[/QUOTE] You are asking to change absolutely everything about male society. By the way, what new expectations you want to replace the old harmful ones with?
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