Porn and video game addiction are leading to 'masculinity crisis', says Stanford prison experiment p

[.𓃉𓁿𓂎𓁿𓃉.]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705127]what connection does a dominant civilization have to your point even? how is just manning up, growing thicker skin and not being a push-over in your young adult years have anything to do with the fucking Celtics man seriously

tradition isn't a reason to keep on doing something, but it's not a reason to stop doing something either in an of itself. if someone is having a rough time adjusting to society maybe he should cope with it in one way or another instead of asking for society to change FOR him?[/QUOTE]

his point was that "manning up" is something that has meant something wildly different to different cultures across the years that saying "it seems to have worked for millennia before this!" is meaningless

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47705132]The reason for a lot less female hikkis because women can a lot easier find a man compared to a man finding a woman. Same reason in the west there's a lot less socially inept women compared to men. Because men want women and women can choose.
Chances are, if you're average or better woman you will find a partner easily. That means you won't be a shut in. As long as men are horny, women will not become shut ins.[/QUOTE]

Right so essentially society is skewed and that's why you have shut in dudes. So maybe people should stop shitting on the men all the time and blaming them for something that isn't even remotely their fault.

[itisjuly]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705156]Right so essentially society is skewed and that's why you have shut in dudes. So maybe people should stop shitting on the men all the time and blaming them for something that isn't even remotely their fault.[/QUOTE] What are we blaming men for now? I thought we were blaming society?

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705144]It's a strange passive paradigm of mind where people feel entitled that the world should change for them, basically earth should rotate around their persona.
I never understood it.

[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]

You are asking to change absolutely everything about male society.

By the way, what new expectations you want to replace the old harmful ones with?[/QUOTE]

No I'm asking for the hostile nature to be changed. THAT IS IT.

You don't need to be hostile to people who don't fit in.

I'm asking you to shift heaven and earth? Is asking you to not be an asshole really asking that fucking much? Is asking that of society?

[IlluminatiRex]

I'm going to break this down for you Melnek.

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705127]what connection does a dominant civilization have to your point even? how is just manning up, growing thicker skin and not being a push-over in your young adult years have anything to do with the fucking Celtics man seriously [/quote]
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705024][B]worked fine for a few millennia don't you think?[/B][/QUOTE]

That's what it has to do with it, you fucking brought up past cultures. Since I'm specifically talking about American culture, and American culture is a derivative of various European cultures, and you asserted that every culture has felt the exact same way about male gender roles, and I was telling you otherwise. Especially since male gender roles in the US as they are, [I]evolved in the period following WWII[/I].

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705127]tradition isn't a reason to keep on doing something, but it's not a reason to stop doing something either in an of itself. if someone is having a rough time adjusting to society maybe he should cope with it in one way or another instead of asking for society to change FOR him?[/QUOTE]
Considering your argument was "well its worked lets just keep it", what I said is far from saying "oh it's a tradition gotta take it down". What I'm saying is that it has documented harmful effects on boys and men, and that its time to actually fucking take a look at that and fix it. This isn't one or two kids in a corner of the country having a problem with this, this is a widespread documented issue plaguing boys that are growing up across the US.

[Melnek]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705140]Except it's not being asked to change for one man, it's being asked to change for multiple people.[/QUOTE]

but there's no reason for the change. it's not a life or death situation. it's not people being told to go to the back of the bus. it's not chains and restraints. i'm not trying to mask smaller issues with bigger ones. this is a non-issue.

literally, all there is to it, are some teenagers who happen to have social anxiety and who don't want to be manly men like society wants them to. so don't be. find a place in society that fits you and go about your thing like the rest of us. this is how it works. this is how it always worked. this is how it will work probably forever.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47705166]What are we blaming men for now? I thought we were blaming society?[/QUOTE]

Well yeah, as we've seen in this very thread, men who don't live up to what society thinks a man should be are trash.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705205]but there's no reason for the change. it's not a life or death situation. it's not people being told to go to the back of the bus. it's not chains and restraints. i'm not trying to mask smaller issues with bigger ones. this is a non-issue.

literally, all there is to it, are some teenagers who happen to have social anxiety and who don't want to be manly men like society wants them to. so don't be. find a place in society that fits you and go about your thing like the rest of us. this is how it works. this is how it always worked. this is how it will work probably forever.[/QUOTE]

okay then, you can just not argue about this because you've made your point pretty clearly that not only are we all wrong, we're all making a non issue out of anything that is a mans issue.

But okay. Okay.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705205]but there's no reason for the change. it's not a life or death situation. it's not people being told to go to the back of the bus. it's not chains and restraints. i'm not trying to mask smaller issues with bigger ones. this is a non-issue.

literally, all there is to it, are some teenagers who happen to have social anxiety and who don't want to be manly men like society wants them to. so don't be. find a place in society that fits you and go about your thing like the rest of us. this is how it works. this is how it always worked. this is how it will work probably forever.[/QUOTE]

So I guess you think that because black people aren't told to go to the back of the bus any more that racism isn't an issue?

[IlluminatiRex]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705205]but there's no reason for the change. it's not a life or death situation. it's not people being told to go to the back of the bus. it's not chains and restraints. i'm not trying to mask smaller issues with bigger ones. this is a non-issue.

literally, all there is to it, are some teenagers who happen to have social anxiety and who don't want to be manly men like society wants them to. so don't be. find a place in society that fits you and go about your thing like the rest of us. this is how it works. this is how it always worked. this is how it will work probably forever.[/QUOTE]
"oh no, it's just some women complaining that they have to be in the kitchen all day, it's a non-issue".

[Melnek]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705170]No I'm asking for the hostile nature to be changed. THAT IS IT.

You don't need to be hostile to people who don't fit in.

I'm asking you to shift heaven and earth? Is asking you to not be an asshole really asking that fucking much? Is asking that of society?[/QUOTE]

to be frank with you, yes it is.

society is a pretty volatile thing mate.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=itisjuly;47705166]What are we blaming men for now? I thought we were blaming society?[/QUOTE]

Everyone but ourselves, as always.

[Melnek]

[QUOTE=bdd458;47705218]"oh no, it's just some women complaining that they have to be in the kitchen all day, it's a non-issue".[/QUOTE]

hey remember those disproportionate analogies?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705217]So I guess you think that because black people aren't told to go to the back of the bus any more that racism isn't an issue?[/QUOTE]

no, why would i think that?

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705236]to be frank with you, yes it is.

society is a pretty volatile thing mate.[/QUOTE]

Okay well I guess no one can stop you from being a vile human being but I'll do my best to not shame those people because oddly enough, it's pretty easy to not shame those people.

Wow. What a difficulty.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705245]

no, why would i think that?[/QUOTE]

Because you seem to be implying it's okay to effectively segregate and mistreat people as long as it's not enshrined in law?

[HumanAbyss]

If you're first thought when you're told you shouldn't be hostile and toxic to people who aren't like you is "No that's an affront to me as a person and to society as a whole" you might have an issue with being toxic and hateful yourself.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705170]No I'm asking for the hostile nature to be changed. THAT IS IT.

You don't need to be hostile to people who don't fit in.

I'm asking you to shift heaven and earth? Is asking you to not be an asshole really asking that fucking much? Is asking that of society?[/QUOTE]

You said the expectations were harmful. Didn't you?
The expectations of what a men should be like are what causes some people to suffer over and over again and never be accepted and be judged all the time. That's your point if I got it right.

People being jerks is a different issue. It's solvable to begin with. But that's not what you initially asked for.

You know, if you really want to change what people expect of a man - show by example. It's the only way. Be a non-dominant, non-aggressive, non-muscular succesful person and make people find out about it. Then it will change.

But then again, you need to change yourself and it's the only way. Maybe not to fit into the current expectations, but to be happy and realistic within your own.

[IlluminatiRex]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705245]hey remember those disproportionate analogies?

no, why would i think that?[/QUOTE]
How exactly is that a disproportionate analogy? Both are gender roles that have existed within American society. Both have caused people to feel left out, bullied, both have caused a lot people to commit suicide.

It's a far cry from disproportionate. In fact, it's one of the few things you can accurately line up with male gender roles, since you can't just look at male or female gender roles on their own, they're interconnected and to fix one you also have to take a look at the other.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705259]You said the expectations were harmful. Didn't you?
The expectations of what a men should be like are what causes some people to suffer over and over again and never be accepted and be judged all the time. That's your point if I got it right.

People being jerks is a different issue. It's solvable to begin with. But that's not what you initially asked for.

You know, if you really want to change what people expect of a man - show by example. It's the only way. Be a non-dominant, non-aggressive, non-muscular succesful person and make people find out about it. Then it will change.

But then again, you need to change yourself and it's the only way. Maybe not to fit into the current expectations, but to be happy and realistic within your own.[/QUOTE]

There's tons of people who fill those roles, they don't change the term masculinity because people like you will cry out about how they're destroying society in deep and troublesome ways by trying to make the term masculine not equate to hostile and aggressive and exclusive.

[editline]11th May 2015[/editline]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705245]hey remember those disproportionate analogies?

no, why would i think that?[/QUOTE]

If only calling it disproportiante was actually doing anything.

Women getting out of the kitchen was PURELY a social issue. So is this. How you can see those as disparate is literally beyond reason.

[Melnek]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705250]Okay well I guess no one can stop you from being a vile human being but I'll do my best to not shame those people because oddly enough, it's pretty easy to not shame those people.

Wow. What a difficulty.[/QUOTE]

i can't speak for the rest of society i haven't been appointed as the official spokesperson yet but you really are asking for a gargantuan task of people not being assholes to those who don't fit in. i mean this is like asking for world peace or something. people will always be wary or outright volatile towards those who seem out of place, out of order or generally weird. dare i say, it might be natural.

and it took us a long fucking time to learn to go against our nature and control it. so yeah, a pretty big task.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705285]i can't speak for the rest of society i haven't been appointed as the official spokesperson yet but you really are asking for a gargantuan task of people not being assholes to those who don't fit in. i mean this is like asking for world peace or something. people will always be wary or outright volatile towards those who seem out of place, out of order or generally weird. dare i say, it might be natural.

and it took us a long fucking time to learn to go against our nature and control it. so yeah, a pretty big task.[/QUOTE]

And it being a big task makes it unworthy of doing? It being something that would help us makes it worthless to you?

You have a weird way of deciding what is and isn't worth anything.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705285]i can't speak for the rest of society i haven't been appointed as the official spokesperson yet but you really are asking for a gargantuan task of people not being assholes to those who don't fit in. i mean this is like asking for world peace or something. people will always be wary or outright volatile towards those who seem out of place, out of order or generally weird. dare i say, it might be natural.

and it took us a long fucking time to learn to go against our nature and control it. so yeah, a pretty big task.[/QUOTE]

You're obviously not going to get rid of it entirely, but much like how it's less socially acceptable to tell women to get back in the kitchen now after much campaigning from feminist movements, the same should really be done with men as well.

[MuffinZerg]

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705276]There's tons of people who fill those roles, they don't change the term masculinity because people like you will cry out about how they're destroying society in deep and troublesome ways by trying to make the term masculine not equate to hostile and aggressive and exclusive.
[/QUOTE]

I feel like it's your own definition of masculinity is wrecked.
Consider a situation:

A guy is walking with his girlfriend in a park, late in the evening. At some point they pass a group of 3 guys drinking beer and acting like jerks. One of the guys yells:
- Eeey, going to fuck your whore mate?
The guy holds his girlfriend close and they proceed to leave the area as fast as possible.

Is the guy not masculine for ignoring the insult?

It was a topic of heated internet debate in a social network. Most people considered the guy to not be any less masculine for ignoring the insult. The justification is that he manned up, didn't let his anger take control, resolved the issue rationally, didn't feel the need to prove anything to anyone, didn't put himself or his girlfriend under unnececary risk, swallowed his pride for a long term goal. On these grounds many people even found this guy more masculine than the ones who insulted him. There were people who disagreed. They were generally stupid though.

Conclusion? Modern society hates aggressive invasive individuals. A man is much more than this, being manly means much more. At least to most people, I believe.

Of course this is not a scientific study. But just go ahead and ask all your friends and people in your circles about that situation. Most will take my side.

[Melnek]

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705254]Because you seem to be implying it's okay to effectively segregate and mistreat people as long as it's not enshrined in law?[/QUOTE]

those are some hard hitting and heavy words you're using there, sure you don't want to rephrase? because you know, there's segregation, and then there's being "that weird kid".

please get some perspective, why is everyone always so fucking dramatic here

[Unreliable]

I love these threads.

Don't you guys think that blaming society is a way to circumvent your own insecurities of being masculine? Why not ignore what you think society tries to push on you and do what you want? When have I ever been concerned about how society portrays me? Never.

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705323]those are some hard hitting and heavy words you're using there, sure you don't want to rephrase? because you know, there's segregation, and then there's being "that weird kid".

please get some perspective, why is everyone always so fucking dramatic here[/QUOTE]

You literally said that if a person can't fit in, which could easily be due to not being physically imposing, ugly whatever, that he should just essentially deal with it and go associate with somewhere he fits in.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705314]I feel like it's your own definition of masculinity is wrecked.
Consider a situation:

A guy is walking with his girlfriend in a park, late in the evening. At some point they pass a group of 3 guys drinking beer and acting like jerks. One of the guys yells:
- Eeey, going to fuck your whore mate?
The guy holds his girlfriend close and they proceed to leave the area as fast as possible.

Is the guy not masculine for ignoring the insult?

It was a topic of heated internet debate in a social network. Most people considered the guy to not be any less masculine for ignoring the insult. The justification is that he manned up, didn't let his anger take control, resolved the issue rationally, didn't feel the need to prove anything to anyone, didn't put himself or his girlfriend under unnececary risk, swallowed his pride for a long term goal. On these grounds many people even found this guy more masculine than the ones who insulted him. There were people who disagreed. They were generally stupid though.

Conclusion? Modern society hates aggressive invasive individuals. A man is much more than this, being manly means much more. At least to most people, I believe.

Of course this is not a scientific study. But just go ahead and ask all your friends and people in your circles about that situation. Most will take my side.[/QUOTE]

So you're conclusion is to ignore the general stupid people you have been going on about this whole thread as being something that is unchangable and not worth changing in the first place as nothing bad comes from them?

How do you ignore your own contradictions?

I don't even disagree that the guy in your hypothetical did the right thing, of course he did. But those stupid people are disagreeing and those stupid people will deride him and attack him just like those thugs would have done. And sure, some people would call his decision the right one, but I don't know that people would define it as "masculine". Just the right thing to do.

[ROFLBURGER]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705314]I feel like it's your own definition of masculinity is wrecked.
Consider a situation:

A guy is walking with his girlfriend in a park, late in the evening. At some point they pass a group of 3 guys drinking beer and acting like jerks. One of the guys yells:
- Eeey, going to fuck your whore mate?
The guy holds his girlfriend close and they proceed to leave the area as fast as possible.

Is the guy not masculine for ignoring the insult?
[/QUOTE]

that has nothing to do with masculinity

[carcarcargo]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705314]I feel like it's your own definition of masculinity is wrecked.
Consider a situation:

A guy is walking with his girlfriend in a park, late in the evening. At some point they pass a group of 3 guys drinking beer and acting like jerks. One of the guys yells:
- Eeey, going to fuck your whore mate?
The guy holds his girlfriend close and they proceed to leave the area as fast as possible.

Is the guy not masculine for ignoring the insult?

It was a topic of heated internet debate in a social network. Most people considered the guy to not be any less masculine for ignoring the insult. The justification is that he manned up, didn't let his anger take control, resolved the issue rationally, didn't feel the need to prove anything to anyone, didn't put himself or his girlfriend under unnececary risk, swallowed his pride for a long term goal. On these grounds many people even found this guy more masculine than the ones who insulted him. There were people who disagreed. They were generally stupid though.

Conclusion? Modern society hates aggressive invasive individuals. A man is much more than this, being manly means much more. At least to most people, I believe.

Of course this is not a scientific study. But just go ahead and ask all your friends and people in your circles about that situation. Most will take my side.[/QUOTE]

That's not really a matter of masculine or not, I mean it was 3 against one it was pretty much the only logical decision to make in that case.

The fact that there are people that will call that guy unmanly should tell you just how ridiculous the expectations on men can actually be.

[.𓃉𓁿𓂎𓁿𓃉.]

[QUOTE=Melnek;47705323]those are some hard hitting and heavy words you're using there, sure you don't want to rephrase? because you know, there's segregation, and then there's being "that weird kid".

please get some perspective, why is everyone always so fucking dramatic here[/QUOTE]

pushing someone out of the social sphere for not fitting in is, indeed, segregation