Porn and video game addiction are leading to 'masculinity crisis', says Stanford prison experiment p
449 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705349]So you're conclusion is to ignore the general stupid people you have been going on about this whole thread as being something that is unchangable and not worth changing in the first place as nothing bad comes from them?
How do you ignore your own contradictions?
I don't even disagree that the guy in your hypothetical did the right thing, of course he did. But those stupid people are disagreeing and those stupid people will deride him and attack him just like those thugs would have done. And sure, some people would call his decision the right one, but I don't know that people would define it as "masculine". Just the right thing to do.[/QUOTE]
The point is - the stupid people are not the majority. You think they are, but they are not.
And the other point - the standard is nothing like you picture it.
[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;47705356]that has nothing to do with masculinity[/QUOTE]
According to humanabyss the guy is not masculine and society expects the guy to attack the insulter immediately (out of fear of appeareing not manly).
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705341]You literally said that if a person can't fit in, which could easily be due to not being physically imposing, ugly whatever, that he should just essentially deal with it and go associate with somewhere he fits in.[/QUOTE]
yes and how is that segregation exactly
being physically unimposing or ugly are things a person can easily change. it's upto him to either change and conform, or remain the same and true to himself, and luckily - there's also a subculture for people like that! there's a place for everybody as already has been said a thousand times. for the socially handicapped, for the quiet kids, the weird kids, the whatever kids. there's a group of people and a sense of belonging to be found everywhere within the western world, especially the goddamned 2015 united states.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705379]The point is - the stupid people are not the majority. You think they are, but they are not.
And the other point - the standard is nothing like you picture it.
[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]
According to humanabyss the guy is not masculine and society expects the guy to attack the insulter immediately (out of fear of appeareing not manly).[/QUOTE]
But what you mentioned was an extreme case, I imagine if it was one guy who called out his girlfriend rather than 3 people would have said the guy should have hit him for insulting his girlfriend.
[editline]11th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705385]yes and how is that segregation exactly
being physically unimposing or ugly are things a person can easily change. [/QUOTE]
You can't change your skeletal structure. There are also guys who suffer from low testosterone who probably couldn't put on much muscle as well.
Most weird shy kids fall into the "weird looking" category where they were just born unfortunate, but apparently according to society they're bad for not being manly and just overcoming it all somehow.
A lot of them do gravitate towards their own subcultures, like the whole anime subculture and shit like that, yet people continue to deride them for doing so.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47705116]I don't know what MuffinZerg is on about so don't take this in the context of anything he's saying.
But, when people are saying that this psychologist is wrong because this perceived 'death of masculinity' is really just the damage caused by societal gender roles, they are outright missing the point of the article and arguing against it without supplying any argument. There've been a lot of proclamations in this thread followed by furious circlejerking, not a whole lot of argument or evidence.
The thing people seem to keep ignoring is that this study is describing a [I]recent[/I] trend. If you want to say that men being increasingly asocial, asexual, and unmotivated is the product of the pressures of traditional gender roles, you have to explain why this is becoming an increasing problem, because it's not like men not being allowed to cry started in the early 2000s.
So some, like Swilly, say that that's because the addictions are the symptom and those societal pressures are the cause. Fair enough. It seems plausible that the easy escape the Internet offers would take the place of more social forms of relieving stress and create a feedback loop where people wall themselves off from others. But with human psychology being what it is, where even ordinary people with satisfying lives can fall prey to addiction, that's not a guarantee. It's a claim that needs support, not 'my assertion is as good as your evidence', because there have been plenty of arguments made that the addictive properties of gaming, the Internet, and porn can contribute to their abuse as a form of recreation and eventually addiction, even without outside pressures.
And more than that, even if Internet/gaming/porn addictions and the resulting social damage are the product of social expectations placed on men, that's not an invalidation or refutation of this psychologist's conclusions. He's suggesting that parents watch their children and try to steer them away from addictive behaviors. That's not much different from parents watching their children to keep them away from drugs, which is sound advice even though it is generally recognized that drug addiction is often the product of social pressures and not a cause in of itself.
This is not a demonization of the Internet, porn, or video games. It's not telling you you ought to ban them for the sake of the children. It's not a Buzzfeed article lamenting the death of chivalry and manliness in nostalgic terms, nor is it suggesting that electronic entertainment is the sole root cause bar none of these social problems. It's identifying a trend, identifying a probable immediate cause due to addictive behavior, and proscribing a remedy that's a hell of a lot easier to implement than 'overturn gendered social constructs, wait a few decades'.
If you are stating that the conclusion of the author is wrong because men aren't allowed to cry or put family above work, you have missed the point of the study entirely.[/QUOTE]
No, he's repeating studies that were done in the 50's and 60's that were used to hide men away from masturbating.
I'm not saying he's wrong, in fact he's probably right and its going to get worse because no one is doing a damn thing about studying virtual reality and its affects on people.
What I am saying is that he's oversimplifying the issue. He's attributing most of the blame on video games, the internet and pornography but he never dug into the physical or mental attitudes of those behind it. Its like the studies that try to link videogames to violence, there's a correlation but its most likely not causation.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705387]But what you mentioned was an extreme case, I imagine if it was one guy who called out his girlfriend rather than 3 people would have said the guy should have hit him for insulting his girlfriend.
[/QUOTE]
My circles wouldn't. You miss the point, the reasoning behind it. 1 guy, 10 guys, million guys. Doesn't matter. Guy is expected to do the same: ignore and walk past.
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705024]worked fine for a few millennia don't you think?[/QUOTE]
So did human sacrifice.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705387]
A lot of them do gravitate towards their own subcultures, like the whole anime subculture and shit like that, yet people continue to deride them for doing so.[/QUOTE]
truly tragic
i get derided about 20 times avg. on my morning commute drive
everyday
[QUOTE=Melnek;47705455]truly tragic
i get derided about 20 times avg. on my morning commute drive
everyday[/QUOTE]
Okay so why exactly are you supporting this again?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47705470]Okay so why exactly are you supporting this again?[/QUOTE]
He says you shouldnt make such a big deal of nonissues.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705379]According to humanabyss the guy is not masculine and society expects the guy to attack the insulter immediately (out of fear of appeareing not manly).[/QUOTE]
well then if that's the case then he's an idiot
i just saw that this thread went from 1 to 10 pages in like an hour should I even read what's going on
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705479]He says you shouldnt make such a big deal of nonissues.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't call being harassed and pushed out of society a none issue
It seems awfully like he is twisting facts to shoot theories.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705379]The point is - the stupid people are not the majority. You think they are, but they are not.
And the other point - the standard is nothing like you picture it.
[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]
According to humanabyss the guy is not masculine and society expects the guy to attack the insulter immediately (out of fear of appeareing not manly).[/QUOTE]
Now who's twisting who's words?
That's the EXACT opposite of what I said.
[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;47705489]well then if that's the case then he's an idiot
i just saw that this thread went from 1 to 10 pages in like an hour should I even read what's going on[/QUOTE]
If I were you I wouldn't bother.
It's one of the best discussions I have had on facepunch though. But it's mostly the same shit all over again.
See you all, I have already spent 2 hours arguing here.
[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47705507]Now who's twisting who's words?
That's the EXACT opposite of what I said.[/QUOTE]
I was talking about the way you were talking earlier. Before you backpedaled and changed your idea completely.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47705523]
I was talking about the way you were talking earlier. Before you backpedaled and changed your idea completely.[/QUOTE]
the only person who backpedaled was you. first your whole point was that everything that ever happens in someone's life is their fault and that society should literally never change to accommodate anyone and then when you got called out on how utterly stupid that idea is you tried to make your argument about what it means to be masculine.
[QUOTE=Dr.C;47703191]Women are already obsolete now that it's possible to enter the 2nd dimension[/QUOTE]
is your FB profile for real or is it a joke?
Honestly the thing I fear is the break up of the family. I believe, the family is the base unit to society and without the family we have nothing.
every guy I know irl aren't pussies and this is the most clickbaity shit ever
porn and video games is weirdly specific, too. I like porn and video games and I'm fine, just like every other normal person in the fucking world.
[QUOTE=fudge blood;47706278]every guy I know irl aren't pussies and this is the most clickbaity shit ever
porn and video games is weirdly specific, too. I like porn and video games and I'm fine, just like every other normal person in the fucking world.[/QUOTE]
I like alcohol too but I don't drink enough to be an alcoholic.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47703358]Sorry to tell you that, but you are playing the radical feminist [b]"society is wrong, not I need to work on my life"[/b] card.
Our view of masculinity is not harmful. It has been proven by history. Society expects you to make decisions, contorl your life and emotions, looking for your place in life and socialising. Society expects you to stand up to difficulties. Society expects you to work hard. Do you see anything wrong with these expectations?
Personally I don't. Feminists have a point because women are not expected to have the same traits, society's expectations of them are actually harmful. But men? Hell, you have nothing to complain about.
Nobody wants you to suppress emotions. Hell, all the male stars are emotional. Society expects you to not act dumb based only on your emotions - yeah. But that's useful for becoming anything worthwhile.
If you don't like what society is telling you - just be yourself. Ironically society respects men that defy laws of society.
I mean read a biography of any succesful male of the past. These "harmful expectations" you listed are exactly what brought these people success, power, happiness.
Take Bengamin Franklin for example. He never was a "super macho" guy that intimidates everyone arround. Instead he promoted humblness, acceptance, give before you take, listen before you speak, being friendly and avoid angering others. And expectations played a much bigger role back then in 1730.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/d32caafee406a6f4ee1cdcdfcb100c43.png[/IMG]
That explains it.
-Edit- Also, society changes, saying "Back in Benjamin Franklins time yadaydayda" means jack shit today, back then was a different time, just because it was socially acceptable then doesn't make it today. That's like saying "Well people in the 18th century dealt with the black plague without seeing doctors so you should too" If anything, saying it was socially acceptable to be friendly and avoid angering others back than, as opposed to today, is even more backwards ass wrong.
[QUOTE=fudge blood;47706278]every guy I know irl aren't pussies and this is the most clickbaity shit ever
porn and video games is weirdly specific, too. I like porn and video games and I'm fine, just like every other normal person in the fucking world.[/QUOTE]
Porn and video games have always been one of those things that are used as a scape goat for societies bullshit.
His whole theory hinges on their being a "masculinity crisis" in the first place, which is conveniently something that is based entirely on subjective opinion.
It's like saying that wifi causes bad chakras. I could make lots of fancy charts that show how chakras decrease in proximity to wifi but the whole thing falls apart when you realize that chakras aren't a real thing
"Masculinity crisis" is a way of whining about society changing in ways that you don't like. And IMO that's not very masculine.
[QUOTE=Impact1986;47703248]Same with femininity[/QUOTE]
I hate masculinity but I personally want to be feminine don't hate please :(
Pretty sure young men isolating themselves to watch porn and play video games is a symptom, rather than a cause of a "masculinity crisis."
Guys aren't choosing to isolate themselves because porn and video games are better than the real world, they do so because of anxiety, agoraphobia, bullying, low self esteem, depression, and underdeveloped social skills (which is a feedback loop of "have trouble making friends, feel anxious/alone/embarrassed, isolate self, grow up without social skills, stay isolated due to lack of social skills"). They're self-medicating. Video games and porn are the escape, and simply having men do less of either is not going to stop the cause of their preference for isolation.
The conversation about masculinity with young boys is pretty much on topic because it describes a cause for young men to isolate themselves and watch porn and play video games. How society claims ideal men or ideal women should be causes some of those who don't fit those standards to have low self-esteem, which leads to isolation. Men are expected to be stoic, emotionless, tough, sex-crazed and buff, while women are expected to be beautiful, thin, sexy and motherly. When some men or women don't fit those ideals they develop low self-esteem, anxiety, depression, all of which cause them to isolate themselves, hurt themselves or worse.
Just limiting porn and video games is not going to help men become masculine. If you look at it from an addiction point-of-view, limiting the "drug" is not going to cause the need to use the "drug" to decline. There are other issues in the lives of these "addicts" that cause them to seek out the "drug." For some people, that "drug" is pot, alcohol, heroin, coke, or some other hard/soft drug, but for some people that drug is a hobby that ends up filling a void to the point where the person's life is negatively affected.
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;47706822]Pretty sure young men isolating themselves to watch porn and play video games is a symptom, rather than a cause of a "masculinity crisis."
Guys aren't choosing to isolate themselves because porn and video games are better than the real world, they do so because of anxiety, agoraphobia, bullying, low self esteem, depression, and underdeveloped social skills (which is a feedback loop of "have trouble making friends, feel anxious/alone/embarrassed, isolate self, grow up without social skills, stay isolated due to lack of social skills"). They're self-medicating. Video games and porn are the escape, and simply having men do less of either is not going to stop the cause of their preference for isolation.
The conversation about masculinity with young boys is pretty much on topic because it describes a cause for young men to isolate themselves and watch porn and play video games. How society claims ideal men or ideal women should be causes some of those who don't fit those standards to have low self-esteem, which leads to isolation. Men are expected to be stoic, emotionless, tough, sex-crazed and buff, while women are expected to be beautiful, thin, sexy and motherly. When some men or women don't fit those ideals they develop low self-esteem, anxiety, depression, all of which cause them to isolate themselves, hurt themselves or worse.
Just limiting porn and video games is not going to help men become masculine. If you look at it from an addiction point-of-view, limiting the "drug" is not going to cause the need to use the "drug" to decline. There are other issues in the lives of these "addicts" that cause them to seek out the "drug." For some people, that "drug" is pot, alcohol, heroin, coke, or some other hard/soft drug, but for some people that drug is a hobby that ends up filling a void to the point where the person's life is negatively affected.[/QUOTE]
(Sorry, it's a bit of a rant)
I can relate to this honestly. In college, I had a crisis because I was nothing even remotely close to what I've been shown and told what a man should be like. It was to the point I thought I was the wrong gender and my entire psyche and life was exploding. I came rather close to offing myself in shame and helplessness, feeling like I was a burden and useless. I stopped caring if I died when I got out of college due to constantly failing to get a job due to being an emotional wreck because I felt I was nothing but a burden to society and my family. I have a job now, but now I just work to live and live to work.
I still spend most of my time in my room, alone, and online. Not necessarily playing games but interacting with people in a 'safe' environment due to how fucking terrified I am of people. I still sometimes doubt if I'm the right gender, and I most certainly can't safely pursue a relationship with a guy where I live. Course I'm in a bind too, I have 4 years left on a car payment (old car died, live too far away from bus routes) and my job doesn't pay enough to move out while paying on it. So I'm stuck in Texas (fucking hate this state) until then.
[QUOTE=bdd458;47703199]Seriously, fuck this guy. That's not why there's a "Crisis of Masculinity".
There's a crisis of masculinity due to our society's flawed view of men and how men are supposed to act; suppressing emotions, 'manning up', that sort of thing. Our view of masculinity is harmful to boys growing up, adult men, and yes even women. A good example of this is the John Oliver bit on Paid Family Leave that was posted in the Videos section. In it, two sports casters berated a Baseball Player for daring to take his [I]measly 3 days [/I]of family leave to be with his new born son instead of playing Baseball, saying that baseball is more important than being a father. Shit like that is the real crisis of masculinity.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to rate this agree so that I don't have to feel bad about my porn and video game addiction
[QUOTE=DChapsfield;47703245]the Stanford prison experiment was some highly wack shit. i don't feel it adds any credibility to his thesis. it was a test that ran completely off-rails and nearly killed a couple people. crazy but informative research[/QUOTE]
there's so much wrong with the prison experiment's methodology that it's not even funny
he was an active participant in his own experiment while simultaneously trying to control and observe it
it'd be like if Brønsted tried to develop his theories about acids and bases by [I]dissolving himself in a vat of corrosive chemicals[i] and writing down the results as he's being slowly turned to mush from the waist down
[QUOTE=Tone Float;47707277]I'm going to rate this agree so that I don't have to feel bad about my porn and video game addiction[/QUOTE]
Some people argued for 10 pages for that reason. Get on their level
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47707575]Some people argued for 10 pages for that reason. Get on their level[/QUOTE]
Wow it's amazing, it's like you read nothing that anyone actually said.
Oh boo hoo video games and porn are better than real life congratulations
you fuckers brought this upon yourselves
[editline]12th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;47706822]
Guys aren't choosing to isolate themselves because porn and video games are better than the real world[/QUOTE]yes they are
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