• Porn and video game addiction are leading to 'masculinity crisis', says Stanford prison experiment p
    449 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;47704083]What I think is that men who reject masculinity simply do so because they THINK they can't fit in it's standards.[/QUOTE] Well to be honest if the bar is set impossibly high you can't blame them for rejecting it. [editline]11th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ragekipz;47704089]It's not like that at all. It's not any emotion, it's just crying.[/QUOTE] Why is crying wrong? Particularly after a relatives fucking death
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704085]So are "brokenback shut ins" people who don't conform to your traditional view of masculinity, or are they just purely people who play videogames on the regular? Again, you make the worst fucking analogies.[/QUOTE] That's not an analogy. It's a fact. Every single person I know has back problems, from smallest to most severe. Because we sit all day, nothing we can change about it. That's not my subjective view of masculinity, it's dangerous for health. Health doesnt give a fuck about you feeling oppressed, you can't persuade your body: "hey just accept my view of masculinity, I am a manly shut in so please deal without exercise".
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;47704083]What I think is that men who reject masculinity simply do so because they THINK they can't fit in it's standards.[/QUOTE] Why should they have to be stoic muscular shells? Because that's what masculinity always was? That's a weak argument. I'm a thoughtful, caring person who is built like a brick shit house through genetic happenstance. Because of this, any emotions I display are considered to be even more "unmanly" because people like you have determined that being a "man" is being stoic and all these other meaningless traits.
If anything, the way this conversation is going in every direction but the one about the article specifically targeting paints volumes toward about just how little we know about fixing the issue of men and boys not having societal directions other than something going as far back as the 50's.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704101]That's not an analogy. It's a fact. Every single person I know has back problems, from smallest to most severe. Because we sit all day, nothing we can change about it. That's not my subjective view of masculinity, it's dangerous for health. Health doesnt give a fuck about you feeling oppressed, you can't persuade your body: "hey just accept my view of masculinity, I am a manly shut in so please deal without exercise".[/QUOTE] How is that a fact? I play video games several hours a day quite regularly. I also run and bike regularly and was engaged in a highly physical job until doing a highly physical job hurt me. Why does a man need to be muscular? Why is that a trait a man needs? Not all men need to be doing physical jobs now. You're conflating "masculine" with "muscular" and saying if you're not one you're not the other. This is the whole issue. You don't have to be muscular to be healthy.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704079]It's this exact mind set which is causing what the OP was talking about. If you're not some muscle bound hench then you're considered not manly enough and get treated like garbage.[/QUOTE] No you dont? I am not a muscle bound hench, I am ok. In my class in uni 10 guys out of 11 are not muscular. 4 are fit, 1 is muscular, others are not fit at all. They get treated ok, I have never seen a problem. I mean one guy who plays video games all day and is fat is ridiculed often. That's because all he talks about is dota, all he does is play games, he has no girlfriend and probably never had one, he is always late, he never lives up to his promises. But the main reason he is ridiculed for is that he doesn't attempt to change anything, he sees no problems with all that. Its not school, no one is bullying him. We still get along and our class does a lot of things together, we invite him to all parties and whatever is happening. If you find this fimilar and think that you are treated badly for being unmanly - you are delusional. You are mistreated for being a bad person.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704130] If you find this fimilar and think that you are treated badly for being unmanly - you are delusional. You are mistreated for being a bad person.[/QUOTE] Actually I was mistreated because I was naturally quite skinny and rather narrow boned (I'm 6' with 6.5" wrists to put it into perspective) so people took this as a greenlight to walk all over me because I wasn't masculine enough.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704113]How is that a fact? I play video games several hours a day quite regularly. I also run and bike regularly and was engaged in a highly physical job until doing a highly physical job hurt me. Why does a man need to be muscular? Why is that a trait a man needs? Not all men need to be doing physical jobs now. You're conflating "masculine" with "muscular" and saying if you're not one you're not the other. This is the whole issue. You don't have to be muscular to be healthy.[/QUOTE] Last time I am replying to you. Every single time you twist my words back and forth, I give up. This time I will just quote myself. [quote] You be not muscular and be manly in the eyes of people. You can be muscular and not manly. I never said being muscular == man and being not muscular == not man. [/quote] A man doesn't need to be muscular. But being muscular will give you a manly appearance. You seem to forget that "manly" is just what people think. This is it, no universal rule of the world. Just how the people view you.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704091]Men that have no manly traits are not manly. Being muscular is one of them.[/QUOTE] But you're basically just picking traditional manly traits and saying "THAT'S HOW IT WAS AND HOW IT SHALL BE DO NOT QUESTION ME" like your opinion on this is any more valid than anyone elses. [QUOTE]You can be not muscular and be manly in the eyes of people. But you should have other manly traits.[/QUOTE] Here you go again insisting that men need to have certain traits that you deem to be the right ones in order to be men. That's a fucking problem. [QUOTE]Also you can be muscular and not manly. Like some muscular gay people. [/QUOTE] Being gay has nothing to do with not being manly. I've met some incredibly manly gay guys who work in construction and who you wouldn't think are gay, but they suck dick all the same, and good on em, they're amazing guys. Gay and manly are not related terms and it's kind of wrong for you to even go there. [QUOTE]This is not bad for society, it's just how it works. There is no good or bad it in, it's the way of things. Society is like evolution, it just is. [/QUOTE] Society is like evolution, it just is? How can you use evolution as your analogy for society NEVER changing as you are asking it to do? You are the WORST at analogies. [QUOTE]And you keep twisting my arguments. I never said being muscular == man and being not muscular == not man. [/QUOTE] But you have said here in this very fucking post that not having traditional manly traits means you're not masculine, and thus not a good man. How the fuck do you not get this? [QUOTE] You can be good at something or can be bad at something. It's not related to masculinity. You just can't be good at certain things without having certain traits.[/QUOTE] So who are you to say who should be good at what and why each gender should have certain traits? Society? Tradition? [QUOTE]So if you want to be good at sports you become muscular and dominating, thus gaining the manly reputation. How is that bad?[/QUOTE] It's bad to say that is purely manly. That makes men have the impression to be a man is to physically dominant other people. Do you want me to just put you in a headlock and MAKE you believe my way? It seems you would prefer that kind of treatment as opposed to having a logical discussion about it. At least it would make me more manly in your eyes, and thus more stoic and in control?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704093]Well to be honest if the bar is set impossibly high you can't blame them for rejecting it.[/QUOTE] It isn't really high, but it's devaluated right now. That's why it looks high. [QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704093]Why is crying wrong? Particularly after a relatives fucking death[/QUOTE] I'm not saying it's wrong. But it's crying in particular, not all emotions. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704105]Why should they have to be stoic muscular shells? Because that's what masculinity always was? That's a weak argument. I'm a thoughtful, caring person who is built like a brick shit house through genetic happenstance. Because of this, any emotions I display are considered to be even more "unmanly" because people like you have determined that being a "man" is being stoic and all these other meaningless traits.[/QUOTE] That's a very unidimensional view of masculinity. You should expand your views about masculinity before declaring that being manly is being a stoic muscular shell.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704155]Last time I am replying to you. Every single time you twist my words back and forth, I give up. This time I will just quote myself. A man doesn't need to be muscular. But being muscular will give you a manly appearance. You seem to forget that "manly" is just what people think. This is it, no universal rule of the world. Just how the people view you.[/QUOTE] Yes, manly is a purely subjective term formed through societies traditions and cultural norms meaning there is a standard by which people are judged, I'm arguing that it should change. You are arguing that it shouldn't.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704140]Actually I was mistreated because I was naturally quite skinny and rather narrow boned (I'm 6' with 6.5" wrists to put it into perspective) so people took this as a greenlight to walk all over me because I wasn't masculine enough.[/QUOTE] That's an example of society treating anyone who is different badly. Sadly nothing can be done about it (at least among kids), part of our nature. My point was that if this guy didnt have the negative traits I listed I would find him ok. I would expect him to be a super muscular macho ( I would in fact hate to be anywhere near such person ) and hate him for not being it. His isolation stems from not following common rules of society, not being not manly.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704165]Yes, manly is a purely subjective term formed through societies traditions and cultural norms meaning there is a standard by which people are judged, I'm arguing that it should change. You are arguing that it shouldn't.[/QUOTE] Nope, it has changed in the past and it changes everyday. The problem is that our societies don't have a healthy attitude towards men and boys. Which is why this guy considers playing a lot of video games bad.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704174]That's an example of society treating anyone who is different badly. Sadly nothing can be done about it (at least among kids), part of our nature. My point was that if this guy didnt have the negative traits I listed I would find him ok. I would expect him to be a super muscular macho ( I would in fact hate to be anywhere near such person ) and hate him for not being it. His isolation stems from not following common rules of society, not being not manly.[/QUOTE] Your entire argument has essentially been its okay to treat people badly if they're different. I don't see how anyone can think this okay.
[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;47703841]What the fuck [I]is[/I] a masculinity crisis?[/QUOTE] It's just a sensationalist headline. I don't see masculinity mentioned anywhere but in the headline and first paragraph of that article. Nothing about masculinity in the video either I think. The video this seems more about guys spending too much time with video games and porn are becoming socially awkward/extremely shy in real life and that we're more or less just allowing it to happen. Personally I see gaming getting more social as its turned more mainstream and even more women have started getting involved. The video the article addresses was uploaded in August 2011 so the research must be older than that (although I'm failing to figure out how old).
I actually thought he made some interesting points, even though it may not be 100% accurate.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704165]Yes, manly is a purely subjective term formed through societies traditions and cultural norms meaning there is a standard by which people are judged, I'm arguing that it should change. You are arguing that it shouldn't.[/QUOTE] I just like it as it is. If anything "manly" standards motivate me to become better, they don't set unrealistic expectations for me. You seem to just hate being judged. You just hate the standard and blame your problems on it, as if it will do anything. I have to go now, but I want to say one last thing: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vujicic[/url] [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Nick_Vujicic_speaking_in_a_church_in_Ehringshausen%2C_Germany_-_20110401-02.jpg/398px-Nick_Vujicic_speaking_in_a_church_in_Ehringshausen%2C_Germany_-_20110401-02.jpg[/img] This guy is not muscular nor rude. But he was selected #1 manly guy in the world by the magazine "Men's health" (which, btw, loves fitness and promotes that men should be muscular). This guy was selected for living his life despite all the problems. This is the only universal masculinity standard, and it's not harmful.
[QUOTE=CapsAdmin;47704214]It's just a sensationalist headline. I don't see masculinity mentioned anywhere but in the headline and first paragraph of that article. Nothing about masculinity in the video either I think. The video this seems more about guys spending too much time with video games and porn are becoming socially awkward/extremely shy in real life and that we're more or less just allowing it to happen. Personally I see gaming getting more social as its turned more mainstream and even more women have started getting involved. The video the article addresses was uploaded in August 2011 so the research must be older than that (although I'm failing to figure out how old).[/QUOTE] I don't think video games make people shy and socially awkward, I think socially awkward people are just more likely to gravitate towards video games. Sort of like how you see a lot of ugly obsessive gamers, ugly people are treated badly by society so they retreat into solitary hobbies.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704203]Your entire argument has essentially been its okay to treat people badly if they're different. I don't see how anyone can think this okay.[/QUOTE] It's not okay, but it happens. It will happen, I can't do anything about it. I doubt anyone can. I know for sure I won't do it, I won't be around people that do it. And I will teach my children and friends and all people to resist and counter that behaviour. That's all that is within my power. I see no use in blaming anyone or asking for the world to change because I don't like it. If I find a way to change it - I might try.
Replace videogame with television or books, it makes no difference. Activities that can be done alone all will have the same effects.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704230]I just like it as it is. If anything "manly" standards motivate me to become better, they don't set unrealistic expectations for me. You seem to just hate being judged. You just hate the standard and blame your problems on it, as if it will do anything. I have to go now, but I want to say one last thing: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Vujicic[/url] [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Nick_Vujicic_speaking_in_a_church_in_Ehringshausen%2C_Germany_-_20110401-02.jpg/398px-Nick_Vujicic_speaking_in_a_church_in_Ehringshausen%2C_Germany_-_20110401-02.jpg[/img] This guy is not muscular nor rude. But he was selected #1 manly guy in the world by the magazine "Men's health" (which, btw, loves fitness and promotes that men should be muscular). This guy was selected for living his life despite all the problems. This is the only universal masculinity standard, and it's not harmful.[/QUOTE] Uh, I've had my life NEGATIVELY impacted by people like you. I'm living my life regardless of the fact people like you keep getting in my way. I will continue to do so. and I will continue to say to people like yourself that your views about masculinity ARE harmful. Yes, that guy is amazing. I have actually met him in person as he did a tour at my school. He's a fantastic guy. But he didn't talk himself into being a stoic man. He talked about his problems and overcoming that shit and how it was hard for him and emotional as well. You would call that kind of thing "Not stoic" and thus "Not manly". No, he talked about his emotions openly and freely. Using him as your tool to insert "this is the optimal form of masculinity" is a bit shallow. I know people have caused me problems because of the way the standard is. Do I blame the standard? No. Does that mean I won't fucking argue about it? Unlike you seem to insist, no, I will argue about it even if I don't blame it for my problems.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;47704240]I don't think video games make people shy and socially awkward, I think socially awkward people are just more likely to gravitate towards video games. Sort of like how you see a lot of ugly obsessive gamers, ugly people are treated badly by society so they retreat into solitary hobbies.[/QUOTE] Sure shy people gravitate to solitude. But being in solitude makes them more shy. Vicious cycle. Also games are an easy substitute for life. Quick rewards, recognition, fun and excitement without any price. They are so addictive because they are like life, except cheaper. So your brain and body take the easy path. Ugly obessive gamers grow more obessive due to sitting all day. And once in awhile the standards for masculinity make one of these guys hit the gym and then we hear about their miraclous transitions. I don't see anything bad with it.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;47704274]Sure shy people gravitate to solitude. But being in solitude makes them more shy. Vicious cycle. Also games are an easy substitute for life. Quick rewards, recognition, fun and excitement without any price. They are so addictive because they are like life, except cheaper. So your brain and body take the easy path. Ugly obessive gamers grow more obessive due to sitting all day. And once in awhile the standards for masculinity make one of these guys hit the gym and then we hear about their miraclous transitions. I don't see anything bad with it.[/QUOTE] So the bullying and vitrol those people go through that DROVE them there is okay and you don't see anything wrong with it? Jesus.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704272]Uh, I've had my life NEGATIVELY impacted by people like you. I'm living my life regardless of the fact people like you keep getting in my way. I will continue to do so. and I will continue to say to people like yourself that your views about masculinity ARE harmful. Yes, that guy is amazing. I have actually met him in person as he did a tour at my school. He's a fantastic guy. But he didn't talk himself into being a stoic man. He talked about his problems and overcoming that shit and how it was hard for him and emotional as well. You would call that kind of thing "Not stoic" and thus "Not manly". No, he talked about his emotions openly and freely. Using him as your tool to insert "this is the optimal form of masculinity" is a bit shallow. I know people have caused me problems because of the way the standard is. Do I blame the standard? No. Does that mean I won't fucking argue about it? Unlike you seem to insist, no, I will argue about it even if I don't blame it for my problems. He talked about his emotions openly and freely. [/QUOTE] And again you completely missed what I think of men and masculinity. I will quote you because quoting myself doesn't help. [quote]He talked about his problems and overcoming that shit and how it was hard for him and emotional as well. He talked about his emotions openly and freely. [/quote] That is manly. That is one of the many things that are manly in the eyes of people. There are a million manly things in the world, this is one of them. I literally said in my post that I consider this guy manly. And you say that I won't call this manly. Do you even read my posts? [editline]11th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704282]So the bullying and vitrol those people go through that DROVE them there is okay and you don't see anything wrong with it? Jesus.[/QUOTE] The standard is punishing obesity with isolation. So it makes people not become obese in fear of getting isolated. The bullying? Bullying != social standard for men. Bullying is a different, even though related and very important, problem. I think it comes from lack of education about how to handle things. Like you find someone ugly, you feel bad emotions, so you act on them, bullying the person. Trying to scare him away from you. Trying to dominate others by attacking the victim. I would really love if when spotting an ugly guy everyone would advice him on how to get in shape. Why this is not reality is beyound me, its disgusting. But you have to accept reality as it is. tl;dr [i]the standard is ok, people are fucked and using it wrong.[/i]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704282]So the bullying and vitrol those people go through that DROVE them there is okay and you don't see anything wrong with it? Jesus.[/QUOTE] Bullying has nothing to do with masculinity. Girls bully each other as well. Besides, you only get bullied if you don't know how to stand for yourself.
It's pointless to argue with Abyss, he seems to suffer from victim mentality and everyone is a bad guy.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;47704350]Bullying has nothing to do with masculinity. Girls bully each other as well. Besides, you only get bullied if you don't know how to stand for yourself.[/QUOTE] Please, don't even pretend to understand how bullying works in american or canadian school systems. You get bullied, if you stand up for yourself, you get punished and the bully goes off free. It teaches you quickly that you are not to fight back(I broke a kids nose for deciding that the day after my dog was killed it would be funny to leave a ripped up stuffed dog in my locker) but I was suspended for two weeks. Standing up to bullies is not an answer for many kids in THIS society. [editline]11th May 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=itisjuly;47704364]It's pointless to argue with Abyss, he seems to suffer from victim mentality and everyone is a bad guy.[/QUOTE] Yes, absolutely, I think you're all villains out to get me, you figured me out, there's no other possible reason a person could disagree with you than this. Absolutely If this is how you argue, then no, you shouldn't argue with me
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;47704370]Please, don't even pretend to understand how bullying works in american or canadian school systems. You get bullied, if you stand up for yourself, you get punished and the bully goes off free. It teaches you quickly that you are not to fight back(I broke a kids nose for deciding that the day after my dog was killed it would be funny to leave a ripped up stuffed dog in my locker) but I was suspended for two weeks. Standing up to bullies is not an answer for many kids in THIS society.[/QUOTE] You broke his nose, yeah you deserve a suspension. No one will go "oh you broke bully's nose, you get off free" Why are you painting yourself as such a victim?
So what? Maybe masculinity is over rated? I play games all the time, watch porn now and then, have a bunch of mates, work out regularly and my girlfriend is better than I deserve. I don't give care how manly I am though. Everyone's got a problem with how everyone else acts at the moment, it's gotten seriously out of hand and I'd like it to stop. Video games make sense and no one is trying to fuck around with what anyone else is doing. With porn you know what is going to happen. There's no one having a go at you for whatever you like or judging you for what you're attracted to. You just go incognito and have a good time.
[QUOTE=The Janitor;47704391]So what? Maybe masculinity is over rated? I play games all the time, watch porn now and then, have a bunch of mates, work out regularly and my girlfriend is better than I deserve. I don't give care how manly I am though. Everyone's got a problem with how everyone else acts at the moment, it's gotten seriously out of hand and I'd like it to stop. Video games make sense and no one is trying to fuck around with what anyone else is doing. With porn you know what is going to happen. There's no one having a go at you for whatever you like or judging you for what you're attracted to. You just go incognito and have a good time.[/QUOTE] The article is not about socially functioning people like you, why are you getting offended?
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