B.C. Human Rights Tribunal to consider striking gender designation from birth certificates
279 replies, posted
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814006]That's very obvious not what I was saying but thanks, usually there are more steps to take when reducing arguments to absurdity.
[B]By not stressing gender on a birth-certificate we normalize alternate gender expression as something healthy and positive in society.[/B] The pressure to be boy or girl will be less if it's not backed by a chief authority.[/QUOTE]
I know that when me and my friends talk about social norms, we do so in the context of what government documents tell us.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814019]In what world is your birth certificate a medical document? I've never taken my birth certificate to the doctor; maybe in the United States it's different to Canada.[/QUOTE]
Quit while you're ahead.
[QUOTE=Nikota;47814022]I know that when me and my friends talk about social norms, we do so in the context of what government documents tell us.[/QUOTE]
Right, because a government doesn't influence social norms at all.
You can sarcasm-post all you want, it won't make your outrage seem any less insipid.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47813931]Why do you care? This won't negatively affect you in the slightest while opening up the possibilities for alternative expressions of gender.[/QUOTE]
it negatively affects LGBT people who have legitimate problems and grievances because it belittles their cause and makes it harder for them to be taken seriously. it also just overly complicates birth certificates for no reason.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47813931]Why do you care? This won't negatively affect you in the slightest while opening up the possibilities for alternative expressions of gender.[/QUOTE]
It's sex designation that's being fought, not gender. On principle, denying facts to appeal to people's sensitivities is stupid and the exact opposite direction we should be going with these issues.
Instead of denying birth genitals, we should be saying "Hey, you were born with these genitals, but don't identify with them/associated norms and that's okay."
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;47813781]I'm really starting to hate this movement because of things like this. people who don't feel that they're the gender they were born as are in an abnormal situation. why isn't it enough for society to accommodate their decisions? why should society completely invert itself just to pre-emptively cater to an unreasonable minority? it seems to me like this attitude has great potential to halt or even reverse some of the progress we've made with gender equality in the last few years.[/QUOTE]
I'm neutral on this but you act like this will bring about the downfall of humanity because they don't list gender on certificates when at most it'll just save some ink on a paper.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814019]In what world is your birth certificate a medical document? I've never taken my birth certificate to the doctor; maybe in the United States it's different to Canada.[/QUOTE]
I don't either, my social security number is used as a foreign key for my birth certificate entry in the database.
[QUOTE=Nikota;47813997]Another thing is that Children's brains literally aren't developed to make that kind of decision. If a kid says they want to only eat sweets, you don't placate it.[/QUOTE]
To the contrary, actual research instead of silly references indicates that children have a strong sense of gender, and that those who have been forcibly gender-swapped in circumstances not pertaining to transgender people at an early age (surgery included) become horribly dysphoric (much the same way that transgender people become by default) leading to suicide. Early action is good.
I'm not saying to give sex reassignment surgery to a ten year old of course, but you shouldn't waive a child's sexual feelings off as petulance either.
jfc you know you have no idea how people work when you honestly and unironically think removing anything related to sex from a birth certificate will change how society thinks
Cannot believe the transphobia going on in this thread. smh
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;47814041]it negatively affects LGBT people who have legitimate problems and grievances because it belittles their cause and makes it harder for them to be taken seriously. it also just overly complicates birth certificates for no reason.[/QUOTE]
People who don't take LGBT people seriously are people with pre-conceived notions about LGBT people. I also don't think you can dismiss this as an illegitimate problem but that's just me.
I also don't see how not listing gender on a birth certificate is a complication; seems to be a very solid simplification to me.
crazy left wing is just as bad as crazy right wing in terms of actually achieving progression in society cause you alienate 99% of the population
[QUOTE=CommunistCookie;47814046]It's sex designation that's being fought, not gender. On principle, denying facts to appeal to people's sensitivities is stupid and the exact opposite direction we should be going with these issues.
Instead of denying birth genitals, we should be saying "Hey, you were born with these genitals, but don't identify with them/associated norms and that's okay."[/QUOTE]
No-one's denying birth genitals, the point is simply removing the association of male and female with genitalia. XY and XX don't have anything to do with our societal identification of male and female; the birth certificate is a social document.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;47814041]it negatively affects LGBT people who have legitimate problems and grievances because it belittles their cause and makes it harder for them to be taken seriously. it also just overly complicates birth certificates for no reason.[/QUOTE]
As a gay man I don't see how this belittles my cause. All I care about is the objective truth without the drama, so I don't care if some idiots throw a tantrum because they don't like a suggestion for transgender people.
Waiving opposing arguments as "for no reason" isn't very smart, even if you're right about their reasons being faulty.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814082]crazy left wing is just as bad as crazy right wing in terms of actually achieving progression in society cause you alienate 99% of the population[/QUOTE]
Not everyone shares your viewpoint of something being crazy so don't speak for the mythic 99%.
And all progress in society started off as "crazy" anyway, that's what makes them progressive.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814001]That's actually a good solution.[/QUOTE]
It's already a [b]birth certificate[/b], so I don't see how there could be any confusion at all what the sex listed on it could be indicating.
Sure, it's a harmless change (sans the additional ink used), but it's also a pointless change to placate people who seemingly search for reasons to be offended.
Also, whatever is or isn't listed on a birth certificate isn't going to make any difference to:
[quote]Getting to the stage of being able to ‘change’ gender is an anguishing process, in which a child often experiences severe pushback from their own families.[/quote]
Because regardless of what is officially printed, anyone with eyes can clearly see what sex the child is at birth.
[QUOTE=Aldawolf;47814049]I'm neutral on this but you act like this will bring about the downfall of humanity because they don't list gender on certificates when at most it'll just save some ink on a paper.[/QUOTE]
it's pretty blatant from the first sentence of my post that what I was addressing was a the state of trans-gender activism in general and not this single event.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47814098]It's already a [b]birth certificate[/b], so I don't see how there could be any confusion at all what the sex listed on it could be indicating.
Sure, it's a harmless change (sans the additional ink used), but it's also a pointless change to placate people who seemingly search for reasons to be offended.
Also, whatever is or isn't listed on a birth certificate isn't going to make any difference to:
Because regardless of what is officially printed, anyone with eyes can clearly see what sex the child is at birth.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, but sometimes you just have to appease people.
birth certificates are not a social document, they are a record and proof of who you actually are. they should be as accurate as possible. Theres no reason why it shouldn't be recorded as birth sex with an option to note you are trans and whether or not you converted your genitals yet if people choose to include that
removing it all together does literally nothing at all to change societies view positively
I just think that gender assignment should first be done when the child itself has developed to a point where it knows whether it's dolls and skirts or army pants and action figures that they like(or if they find both equally awesome, like I did)
We have a biological gender, but gender roles are a thing that were important back when we were at a pre-medieval level of population globally and survival was important. It's a remnant from the times of tribal villages where women were stoned to death.
If you read into how a child develops its identity and how it (for most people) is actually in a quite nebulous condition for most of their growth, it doesn't really make sense(at least not to me) that the system has to force an identity on them.
Sure, we have different genitals and other physiological variations, but in our modern society, why should we force an identity on the children? Today, gender is more a part of our identity than something that decides whether we are going to be nurses or soldiers, its closer to our names than it is to who we are going to be.
I know as many female programmers and police officers as I know male nurses and hairdressers-
I don't say we should go full on Facebook and allow people to write "pangender transnigger helicopterkin" as their sex, but we could at least learn something from the ancient societies that our culture originates from and have a third gender. Furthermore, what prevents us from just putting in "child" as their identity? Children shouldnt be sexualized, they barely know who they are, even after hitting puberty, seuxalization of children is actually a thing I find a serious problem, when my 10 year old sister watches Disney Channel all she watches are poorly written sitcoms that are nothing about students in high school and how they have boyfriends and girlfriends and wear the newest fashion clothes. What about just identifying their genitals going "male" or "female" then letting them decide what their actual identity is later?
Let the children explore their internal and external world, let them think, let them imagine. Nothing is wrong with a boy that likes wearing skirts and playing with dolls with the girls. I did that myself back then, now I produce my own black metal and play Brutal Doom and Cortex command. And my brothers wife sure did enjoy trying to blast my brains last time I brought my joystick to their house.
This is not going to hurt cisgenders(or me, who is a really sexually confused person since I only started exploring myself sexually the recent years), neither traditional family values.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814105]birth certificates are not a social document, they are a record and proof of who you actually are. they should be as accurate as possible. Theres no reason why it shouldn't be recorded as birth sex with an option to note you are trans and whether or not you converted your genitals yet if people choose to include that
removing it all together does literally nothing at all to change societies view positively[/QUOTE]
especially since the document is created at birth, before a child can speak or do anything, so yeah just mark down whatever it's gentials are and deal with any Gender Dysphoria down the line in an appropriate manner by changing that stuff [I]then[/I]. Not when you need to get any and all important medical information about that newborn child down.
[QUOTE]The B.C. Human Rights Tribunal has agreed to review complaints filed by the Trans Alliance Society and a handful of transgender and intersex individuals, who argue that doctors should stop assigning the sex of a baby based on a quick inspection of the baby’s genitals at birth when there’s a possibility they may identify under a different gender, or no gender, years later.[/QUOTE]
So the gender is on the birth certificate instead of the sex (or both?)? Sex is kinda something thats a biological fact but gender really isn't.
For most people their gender [I]matches[/I] their sex so I don't see much of a reason to end the practice. Trans people or their parents can just contact the government to change it. I doubt they would even ask for some kind of proof.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814105]birth certificates are not a social document, they are a record and proof of who you actually are.[/QUOTE]
And there are a lot of people who don't think their sex on their birth-certificate accurately reflects who they are; that's the point.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814105]
removing it all together does literally nothing at all to change societies view positively[/QUOTE]
I disagree, I think it'll normalize the idea that not everyone has the same gender expression. Both of us are making an assumption there.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;47814099]it's pretty blatant from the first sentence of my post that what I was addressing was a the state of trans-gender activism in general and not this single event.[/QUOTE]
I've not seen any transgender activism news that would "cause society to invert itself".
the only people this helps are the special snowflake slacktivists, for literally everyone else, it achieves exactly 0 because just by promoting positive change for trans people you are automatically marred by idiots like you thisispain who put effort into shit like this which doesnt really matter at all and doesnt help your cause at all.
having it not say if you had a willy or a vag at birth isn't going to stop trans people getting beaten and killed
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814118]And there are a lot of people who don't think their sex on their birth-certificate accurately reflects who they are; that's the point.
I disagree, I think it'll normalize the idea that not everyone has the same gender expression. Both of us are making an assumption there.[/QUOTE]
Birth certificates specify sex not gender so I don't even know what you're on about.
[QUOTE=Nikota;47813887]
There must be good plastic surgeons in that society.[/QUOTE]
People would disclose it if they wanted to/it would be obvious most of the time. I just meant that our society would change to the extent that there would be no legal difference or consideration based on sex or gender. Only medical treatments and physical relations would make one's sex relevant.
Plastic surgery would always be an option... but if gender did not exist, then perhaps elective surgeries would be less common, as there would no longer be a sex assigned to thoughts, preferences and roles.
I know this is all extremely unlikely. It's just interesting to see what the end goal of all this is. What I'm describing would represent a total change from how we live today, but would mostly look the same... you'd just see more men in dresses without it being a big deal for example, since the concept of dresses being "feminine" wouldn't exist as femininity itself would be an outdated, rigid, and oppressive construct.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814103]I agree with you, but sometimes you just have to appease people.[/QUOTE]
Appeasement seems to just encourage such behavior though.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47814134]Appeasement seems to just encourage such behavior though.[/QUOTE]
You're probably right.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814086]association of male and female with genitalia. XY and XX don't have anything to do with our societal identification of male and female[/QUOTE]
Uh- this is patently false. Most people DO identify their gender based on their birth sex. There's nothing wrong with doing otherwise, but to say that ISN'T the PRIMARY societal identifier is a bit like saying skin color has nothing to do with social identification of race. Putting one's parent's ethnicities on a birth record doesn't force them to socially identify as ethnicity of their parents, nor would leaving it off do anything otherwise.
You seem to be arguing that a child with confusion about their gender identity would ever read their birth certificate and self-identify based on it, rather than assess it themselves like every other transgender person does.
The piece of paper is a piece of paper, used for government census and registration for services; it's not a literal manifestation of some social contract that seals you into a societal role.
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