B.C. Human Rights Tribunal to consider striking gender designation from birth certificates
279 replies, posted
yo thisispain if you are a chick in a mans body you still get all y linked disease, and a man in a chicks body still gets x linked disease. you think getting rid of a record of the single easiest test for these risk factors will help people?
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814124]the only people this helps are the special snowflake slacktivists, for literally everyone else, it achieves exactly 0 because just by promoting positive change for trans people you are automatically marred by idiots like you thisispain who put effort into shit like this which doesnt really matter at all and doesnt help your cause at all.
having it not say if you have a willy or a vag isn't going to stop trans people getting beaten and killed[/QUOTE]
I treated your points with respect and gave you my time and you respond by calling me an idiot and demeaning people with the words "special snowflake slacktivists."
Maybe if we were supportive of trans-gender people, even the ones who go against our conceptions of what is moral and not, people wouldn't get beat or killed.
[QUOTE=bitches;47814096]As a gay man I don't see how this belittles my cause. All I care about is the objective truth without the drama, so I don't care if some idiots throw a tantrum because they don't like a suggestion for transgender people.
Waiving opposing arguments as "for no reason" isn't very smart, even if you're right about their reasons being faulty.[/QUOTE]
as a gay man your opinion of these people couldn't be less relevant to what I said, because as a gay man you're obviously not going to subscribe to far right gender-discriminatory beliefs nor will you generalize yourself as being part of the same group as people you disagree with. it concerns me that with so many genuine, pressing issues for LGBT communities there are people fighting for things like this. it's always better for a political cause to have a clear focus.
I see it as being for no reason because it doesn't achieve anything. it doesn't make things any easier for anybody, it doesn't solve any injustices, and I find it extremely doubtful that a trans gender person would find solace in the fact that when they were born there was a document created that made an effort to ignore the genitalia on their infant body.
[editline]27th May 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=bitches;47814123]I've not seen any transgender activism news that would "cause society to invert itself".[/QUOTE]
you're misreading most of what I said.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814124]the only people this helps are the special snowflake slacktivists, for literally everyone else, it achieves exactly 0 because just by promoting positive change for trans people you are automatically marred by idiots like you thisispain who put effort into shit like this which doesnt really matter at all and doesnt help your cause at all.
having it not say if you had a willy or a vag at birth isn't going to stop trans people getting beaten and killed[/QUOTE]
"special snowflake slacktivist idiots" isn't an intelligent way to make your point
instead of complaining about the mere notion of change, why don't you instead explain why you believe it is useful in its current form, and why changing it would make it less so?
[QUOTE=DanRatherman;47814143]Uh- this is patently false. Most people DO identify their gender based on their birth sex. There's nothing wrong with doing otherwise, but to say that ISN'T the PRIMARY societal identifier is a bit like saying skin color has nothing to do with social identification of race. Putting one's parent's ethnicities on a birth record doesn't force them to socially identify as ethnicity of their parents, nor would leaving it off do anything otherwise.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what you're disputing. I'm saying someone having XY and XX chromosomes has nothing to do with whether they are seen as male or female by society; proof being the existence of transgender people. I could easily the point that stressing gender on a birth certificate solidifies the notion that there are two genders and that someone who is transgender is somehow "changing," while in fact transgender people feel like they're not changing anything and that the birth certificate was incorrect from the start.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814086]No-one's denying birth genitals, the point is simply removing the association of male and female with genitalia. XY and XX don't have anything to do with our societal identification of male and female; the birth certificate is a social document.[/QUOTE]
For all but a very small portion of the population, having XY vs XX means a lot.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814144]yo thisispain if you are a chick in a mans body you still get all y linked disease, and a man in a chicks body still gets x linked disease. you think getting rid of a record of the single easiest test for these risk factors will help people?[/QUOTE]
I've never taken my birth certificate to the doctor so I don't see how that's relevant to this conversation.
How many children actually look at their birth certificate?
The way people treat children, the toys/clothing they give them, the name they're given, etc... all have an impact, and all of those factors have everything to do with the parents, and other people around the child, and nothing to do with whatever is written on their birth certificate. Even if the child's sex isn't written down, the parents will know regardless.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814178]I've never taken my birth certificate to the doctor so I don't see how that's relevant to this conversation.[/QUOTE]
Your doctor has access to it iirc, since it's a medical document.
[QUOTE=CommunistCookie;47814177]For all but a very small portion of the population, having XY vs XX means a lot.[/QUOTE]
And that's what these trans-gender activists are trying to change.
If you don't agree then that's fine, but they're just peacefully suggesting very innocous changes which positively affect this supposedly "very small portion of the population" while not harming anyone else. I don't see what the big deal is.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47814179]How many children actually look at their birth certificate?
The way people treat children, the toys/clothing they give them, the name they're given, etc... all have an impact, and all of those factors have everything to do with the parents, and other people around the child, and nothing to do with whatever is written on their birth certificate. Even if the child's sex isn't written down, the parents will know regardless.[/QUOTE]
Yes but doctors need to know, and constantly peaking between the child's legs is not a very good method.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814145]I treated your points with respect and gave you my time and you respond by calling me an idiot and demeaning people with the words "special snowflake slacktivists."
Maybe if we were supportive of trans-gender people, even the ones who go against our conceptions of what is moral and not, people wouldn't get beat or killed.[/QUOTE]
this isnt doing anything to support them whatsoever
having an accurate record of birth sex that can be compared to mental gender is also incredibly important for tracking trends and actually identifying secondary characteristics of trans people for targeted help and awareness campaigns. it would also be incredibly easy to look at the statistics and find environmental effects that may be linked to an increased chance of having a trans baby for other targeted campaigns. If we found out X made it much more likely to give you a trans baby, only idiots would still do X because who would want to put their kid through that, even in a society that supported them 100%, it would still be incredibly shit to go through.
the only people who would support something like this have never worked or been educated in health and health records and dont have any understanding at all of why as much accuracy as possible must be included.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814178]I've never taken my birth certificate to the doctor so I don't see how that's relevant to this conversation.[/QUOTE]
you still need to be identified as physically male or female, so essentially this change to the birth certificate is voided by other documents which you [I]would[/I] bring to a doctor. as far as I can see that effectively makes this proposed change neigh on completely pointless.
[QUOTE=bdd458;47814183]Your doctor has access to it iirc, since it's a medical document.[/QUOTE]
Not in my state.
Here in BC where it actually matters, my brother's friend recently came out as a girl.
I already practiced using her new name even though I'll probably not even recognize her as her new self.
I've been thinking about it for the last few minutes and I think that an extra, empty, gender field on the certificate would be good, not necessarily for the child but for the parents.
When the aforementioned friend came out, her parents kicked her out and it took weeks before they came back to each other.
Hopefully knowing your child's gender could change later would put a bit of moderation on the parents' reactions. That or educating parents.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814168] I could easily the point that stressing gender on a birth certificate solidifies the notion that there are two genders and that someone who is transgender is somehow "changing," while in fact transgender people feel like they're not changing anything and that the birth certificate was incorrect from the start.[/QUOTE]
The term [I]transgender[/I] basically implies that though. Gender and Sex are different things so why wouldn't you want to acknowledge the difference on a government document?
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814118]And there are a lot of people who don't think their sex on their birth-certificate accurately reflects who they are; that's the point..[/QUOTE]
Sex: Male
Gender: Female
Not sure on how much a sex-change affects the body but for medical reasons it would probably be best to keep the birth-sex for government records.
Would we all be happy if the birth certificate instead listed chromosomes? I can't see the fault in that.
[QUOTE=duckmaster;47814188]Yes but doctors need to know, and constantly peaking between the child's legs is not a very good method.[/QUOTE]
My point was removing sex from the birth certificate would have no impact on the child's decision as to what gender they identify as.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47814202]My point was removing sex from the birth certificate would have no impact on the child's decision as to what gender they identify as.[/QUOTE]
Oh, well what I said still stands to everyone else posting in the thread.
I'm not sure if this is a good idea.
Just rename it to something like P.G.B. (Physical Gender on Birth) if you really need to
[QUOTE=bitches;47814201]Would we all be happy if the birth certificate instead listed chromosomes? I can't see the fault in that.[/QUOTE]
They'd probably still find that too gender identifying. In their ideal world there would be no gender identification.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814211]They'd probably still find that too gender identifying. In their ideal world there would be no gender identification.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure you'd have some oddballs that complain just to complain, but I'm also sure that a lot of people would recognize it as an objective truth that respectfully clears the sex/gender misconceptions from the birth certificate. Most transgender people are not the ones you hear about tumblr of.
it doesnt matter if you've never told your doctor yourself your birth sex, there are different risk factors for each set of genes (x or y) and it [I]will[/I] lead to worse overall health system. doctors need access to as much information as possible to make educated decisions and diagnoses.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814191]
having an accurate record of birth sex that can be compared to mental gender is also incredibly important for tracking trends and actually identifying secondary characteristics of trans people for targeted help and awareness campaigns. it would also be incredibly easy to look at the statistics and find environmental effects that may be linked to an increased chance of having a trans baby for other targeted campaigns. If we found out X made it much more likely to give you a trans baby, only idiots would still do X because who would want to put their kid through that, even in a society that supported them 100%, it would still be incredibly shit to go through.[/QUOTE]
I can only speak for the United States when I say that none of those who track such statistics have access to the official birth-certificate unless they are volunteered by trans people. If you have proof that we need an "accurate record" on the birth-certificate to do such things then I'd be happy to consider it.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814191]the only people who would support something like this have never worked or been educated in health and health records and dont have any understanding at all of why as much accuracy as possible must be included.[/QUOTE]
If you don't accept my suggestion that there's maybe a point to people who say including sex on a birth-certificate isn't accurate then we don't have anything further to discuss. Feel free insulting me though, or whatever.
[QUOTE=bitches;47814222]I'm sure you'd have some oddballs that complain just to complain, but I'm also sure that a lot of people would recognize it as an objective truth that respectfully clears the sex/gender misconceptions from the birth certificate. Most transgender people are not the ones you hear about tumblr of.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but i'd say you're sexually male or sexually female is also an objective truth. And changing it to XX or XY is literally the same thing, but with different words.
Rather than seeing this change as "People may disagree with what's on their birth certificates later on", it should be seen as "Removing irrelevant information from future public records?" When you think about it, sex is superfluous to everyone but the people you have sex with, have kids with, and your doctor. There ideally shouldn't be a reason for anyone else (I mean your parents and immediate family would know) to demand that information from you.
This ties back into my lofty ideas for a fantastical future society here, but the goal here should be to make things like sex and gender as irrelevant as possible to people's lives and happiness.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814226]it doesnt matter if you've never told your doctor yourself your birth sex, there are different risk factors for each set of genes (x or y) and it [I]will[/I] lead to worse overall health system. doctors need access to as much information as possible to make educated decisions and diagnoses.[/QUOTE]
Like I've said before, we seem to be able to have quite well-functioning doctoral care without the surrendering of birth certificates.
[QUOTE=DaMastez;47814179]How many children actually look at their birth certificate?
The way people treat children, the toys/clothing they give them, the name they're given, etc... all have an impact, and all of those factors have everything to do with the parents, and other people around the child, and nothing to do with whatever is written on their birth certificate. Even if the child's sex isn't written down, the parents will know regardless.[/QUOTE]
This brings back thoughts of something I had to read for one of my Anthropology classes - a slightly outdated Ethnography on the Tohono O'Odham people (formerly known as the Papago) called "Papago Woman". The Papago were among some of the Native American cultures that recognized four Genders - Women, Men, Feminine Men, and Masculine Women.
There was one person mentioned in this book, who was born with a penis. She fit into the "feminine man" category. Wore women's clothes, did women's chores and tasks (they were thankful, since she could reach and lift things that women normally couldn't), that sort of thing. When she was a kid, her parents weren't really sure what category she was in, so they basically threw her into a hut a bunch of times with some things traditionally associated with women in that culture, and generally associated with men in that culture (Bit fuzzy, but they may have lit the hut on fire. been a while since I read that, so not 100% sure). Long story short, this person born with male genitalia kept leaving with the feminine stuff and they respected her choice to do so. idk, just kinda interesting how other cultures viewed this stuff.
[QUOTE=person11;47814229] but the goal here should be to make things like sex and gender as irrelevant as possible to people's lives and happiness.[/QUOTE]
I thought the goal was equality, not eradication of the self-identifying concepts of those who differ?
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814086]No-one's denying birth genitals, the point is simply removing the association of male and female with genitalia. XY and XX don't have anything to do with our societal identification of male and female; the birth certificate is a social document.[/QUOTE]
As someone who works in cytogenetics, I can tell you that this is incorrect.
As much as in your own little world you like to believe this isn't the case, your genetic information literally is the reason why people may identify a certain way.
Or are you assuming gender identity is a choice?
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