B.C. Human Rights Tribunal to consider striking gender designation from birth certificates
279 replies, posted
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814227]I can only speak for the United States when I say that none of those who track such statistics have access to the official birth-certificate unless they are volunteered by trans people. If you have proof that we need an "accurate record" on the birth-certificate to do such things then I'd be happy to consider it.
If you don't accept my suggestion that there's maybe a point to people who say including sex on a birth-certificate isn't accurate then we don't have anything further to discuss. Feel free insulting me though, or whatever.[/QUOTE]
they dont have access to specific people, its anonymous.
theres literally no good reason to not have a record of the number of babies born with male bits and female bits. literally 1 semester of public health at uni will teach you this. you are quite literally suggesting they make the health system less accurate and therefore objectively worse. 1st year 1st semester of any health course teaches you the importance of complete accurate information
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814001]That's actually a good solution.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand the issue though, it's the same thing with a different name. Who cares?
A birth certificate isn't a medical document, it's a document of identity. Putting gender on it is about as useful as putting religion on it (btw - some countries do this), especially how difficult this makes it to change later.
Any form of ID that essentially cannot be changed shouldn't list anything on it that [i]can[/i] change. Even if this idea has you frothing at the mouth and grasping for your bible you can't claim that it won't cut down on some bureaucracy. Even having your name on there can easily lead to having pieces of ID that conflict with each other and cause problems.
[QUOTE=Big Johnson;47814252]As someone who works in cytogenetics, I can tell you that this is incorrect.
As much as in your own little world you like to believe this isn't the case, your genetic information literally is the reason why people may identify a certain way.
Or are you assuming gender identity is a choice?[/QUOTE]
In my own little world I consider male and female to be socially constructed categories. I know of the hypotheses that genetics are influential in how we identify but as far as I'm aware we're still very far away from understanding why and how people identify; I'm open to reading things if you've got something.
And gender identity being a choice or not is mostly irrelevant to what I was saying, lots of things are societal but not choices.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814228]Yeah but i'd say you're sexually male or sexually female is also an objective truth. And changing it to XX or XY is literally the same thing, but with different words.[/QUOTE]
Things like homosexuality and transgenderism come down to gene expression, mutations, hormone levels, and the effectiveness of the Y chromosome's influence on the X (being that in oversimplified terms, Y serves to activate a lot of male code on X).
Changing it to chromosome listing gives the direct literal, but 'male/female' is better off as a gender concept instead of a sexual one, which leads to misconceptions. It's too complicated to be the exact same thing.
noone is bible thumping zeke, its just thisispains emotional reasoning vs how the world and good health systems in western countries actually function.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814267]A birth certificate isn't a medical document, it's a document of identity. Putting gender on it is about as useful as putting religion on it (btw - some countries do this), especially how difficult this makes it to change later.
Any form of ID that essentially cannot be changed shouldn't list anything on it that [i]can[/i] change. Even if this idea has you frothing at the mouth and grasping for your bible you can't claim that it won't cut down on some bureaucracy. Even having your name on there can easily lead to having pieces of ID that conflict with each other and cause problems.[/QUOTE]
holy shit what the fuck you aren't born into a religion dude how is that even remotely comparable
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814265]they dont have access to specific people, its anonymous.
theres literally no good reason to not have a record of the number of babies born with male bits and female bits. literally 1 semester of public health at uni will teach you this. you are quite literally suggesting they make the health system less accurate and therefore objectively worse. 1st year 1st semester of any health course teaches you the importance of complete accurate information[/QUOTE]
Everyone has a medical chart. If it isn't already, those will all soon be stored digitally and instantly available to any doctor treating you.
That has sex on it.
Not having gender on birth certificates will do nothing at all in regards to medical care. That's like saying drivers' licenses that don't list weight are going to lead to inferior medical care because your doctor won't have access to that information.
male and female are not societal. what society associates with them are but trans people arent committing suicide because their mum made them wear pink instead of blue, its because their bodies dont match their brain.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814265]they dont have access to specific people, its anonymous.
theres literally no good reason to not have a record of the number of babies born with male bits and female bits. literally 1 semester of public health at uni will teach you this. you are quite literally suggesting they make the health system less accurate and therefore objectively worse. 1st year 1st semester of any health course teaches you the importance of complete accurate information[/QUOTE]
I'm not suggesting any such thing, that's what you're extrapolating. Who's doing such studies? Is a birth-certificate the only way to receive that information?
Do less accusative "you"'s and write some more informative stuff. I've taken my required health-courses and it's never come up so I'm curious and want to learn.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814267]
Any form of ID that essentially cannot be changed shouldn't list anything on it that [i]can[/i] change.[/QUOTE]
it can't change. it's the sex you were born with, not the sex you're going to have forever.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814272]In my own little world I consider male and female to be socially constructed categories.[/QUOTE]
No. They are biological facts.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814288]Everyone has a medical chart. If it isn't already, those will all soon be stored digitally and instantly available to any doctor treating you.
That has sex on it.
Not having gender on birth certificates will do nothing at all in regards to medical care. That's like saying drivers' licenses that don't list weight are going to lead to inferior medical care because your doctor won't have access to that information.[/QUOTE]
read my other posts. hospital treatment is far from the only consideration
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814292]male and female are not societal. what society associates with them are but trans people arent committing suicide because their mum made them wear pink instead of blue, its because their bodies dont match their brain.[/QUOTE]
That's a presumption. Do all transgender people experience body dysmorphic disorder?
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814307]That's a presumption. Do all transgender people experience body dysmorphic disorder?[/QUOTE]
Uh, yeah? That's why they're transgender.
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;47814299]it can't change. it's the sex you were born with, not the sex you're going to have forever.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you read the article. The issue is that birth certificates are not medical documents - they are personal identification. Transgender people need to have the gender on their birth certificates changed because that document [i]doesn't[/i] list "birth sex", it lists current gender designation for the purposes of identification.
This is unnecessary bureaucracy.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;47814300]No. They are biological facts.[/QUOTE]
No, the biological fact is the phenotype. The socially-constructed part is our association of what is a man with one and woman with the other.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814294]I'm not suggesting any such thing, that's what you're extrapolating. Who's doing such studies? Is a birth-certificate the only way to receive that information?
Do less accusative "you"'s and write some more informative stuff. I've taken my required health-courses and it's never come up so I'm curious and want to learn.[/QUOTE]
im not extrapolating. You want a less accurate record, this is well documented to detrimental.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814310]Uh, yeah? That's why they're transgender.[/QUOTE]
Not all transgender people I've spoken to feel that way though.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814303]read my other posts. hospital treatment is far from the only consideration[/QUOTE]
Literally nobody has their birth certificate stored in a location where it's easily accessible in a situation where determining birth sex is of medical importance. Mine is in a lock box, those things are expensive if you lose them.
[QUOTE=DanRatherman;47814250]I thought the goal was equality, not eradication of the self-identifying concepts of those who differ?[/QUOTE]
Using sex as a means of social differentiation or social identity makes no sense once you realize gender is just a series of arbitrary roles.
There are a million and one other ways to be yourself. Erasing gender as a concept while rendering sex legally and socially meaningless is the most difficult but most effective way of creating a society that treats everyone equally.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814307]That's a presumption. Do all transgender people experience body dysmorphic disorder?[/QUOTE]
by definition.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814307]That's a presumption. Do all transgender people experience body dysmorphic disorder?[/QUOTE]
Male and female are literal biological distinctions between sexes. Someone may identify with a different gender, which I agree is a societal construct and which may "change" as a person matures, but there are biological characteristics that are unique to the sexes and noting that on a birth certificate is a meaningful distinction imo.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814315]im not extrapolating. You want a less accurate record, this is well documented to detrimental.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, if you can't accept the thesis that it's not accurate in the first place then we don't have much to discuss. I'm still curious about what I asked.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814318]Not all transgender people I've spoken to feel that way though.[/QUOTE]
Isn't the point of transitioning to remove your gender dysmorphia.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814314]No, the biological fact is the phenotype. The socially-constructed part is our association of what is a man with one and woman with the other.[/QUOTE]
So then biological sex is a fact that can be recorded on a sheet of facts that doesn't effect the persons social identity as male or female? Alright then we can put it on the birth certificate knowing that it doesn't effect the social side negatively at all, quite neat and tidy then.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814321]Literally nobody has their birth certificate stored in a location where it's easily accessible in a situation where determining birth sex is of medical importance. Mine is in a lock box, those things are expensive if you lose them.[/QUOTE]
including my posts about population research.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814321]Literally nobody has their birth certificate stored in a location where it's easily accessible in a situation where determining birth sex is of medical importance.[/QUOTE]
The information included on the initial "Certificate of Live Birth" which is then handed off to, for simplicities sake, the Father who is with the mother in the room to make any corrections.
That information is then added into the hospital's data base. It's of medical importance. What bits you've got is an important part of that process.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814324]by definition.[/QUOTE]
This is utterly and totally wrong. You can be transgender without body dysmorphic disorder because body dysmorphic disorder ("by definition") requires symptoms similar to both depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Not all trans people experience this.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814326]Like I said, if you can't accept the thesis that it's not accurate in the first place then we don't have much to discuss. I'm still curious about what I asked.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=mokkan;47813990]why not just write birth sex instead of sex if its a problem, like how could you be offended by that, even if you get your bits converted you were still born with them
like your birth certificate is your first and definitely most important bit of identification, it should have everything they can possibly put[/QUOTE]
the only way this could be inaccurate is if the doctor writes it down wrong
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