B.C. Human Rights Tribunal to consider striking gender designation from birth certificates
279 replies, posted
[QUOTE=srobins;47814325]Male and female are literal biological distinctions between sexes. Someone may identify with a different gender, which I agree is a societal construct and which may "change" as a person matures, but there are biological characteristics that are unique to the sexes and noting that on a birth certificate is a meaningful distinction imo.[/QUOTE]
And I'd argue that a medical record making note of those distinctions and of potential complications which can result from treatment towards alleviating body dysmorphic disorder would be more meaningful and useful than a static birth certificate - which as I've said again in my experience is not information a doctor is automatically privy to.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814195]Not in my state.[/QUOTE]
As far as I know doctors don't have access to your birth certificate [i]anywhere[/i], unless you provide it to them. Which you'll never do, because it has no information that they don't already have in your medical chart.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814342]This is utterly and totally wrong. You can be transgender without body dysmorphic disorder because body dysmorphic disorder ("by definition") requires symptoms similar to both depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Not all trans people experience this.[/QUOTE]
If they're comfortable in their body then why are they transitioning?
I literally am not understanding. How can you be trans while simultaneously not suffering from gender dysmorphia.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814342]This is utterly and totally wrong. You can be transgender without body dysmorphic disorder because body dysmorphic disorder ("by definition") requires symptoms similar to both depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Not all trans people experience this.[/QUOTE]
you're going to have to explain a bit further because I'm pretty confused.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;47814300]No. They are biological facts.[/QUOTE]
nah dude genetics is just a hypothesis
Thisispain, sex influences gender identity. I mean this is the case for most people, the crossing over in relation to sex chromosomes usually results in say, someone who is XX identifying as a female or XY identifying as male. It's how reproduction do, it's there for a reason. Sometimes there are anomalies with chromosomes crossing over, which specifically in relation to X and Y chromosomes, can cause deviation to the norm in gender identity, this is not anything to do with external factors.
People are born trans, plain and simple, you can't blame societal factors?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814342]This is utterly and totally wrong. You can be transgender without body dysmorphic disorder because body dysmorphic disorder ("by definition") requires symptoms similar to both depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder. Not all trans people experience this.[/QUOTE]
the medically accepted definition of a trans person is someone whos mental gender and physical sex do not match up. If you do not have this then you are not trans. You literally can not be trans unless you have that.
It doesnt have to make you unable to function, it doesnt have to give you suicidal thoughts. mental disorders are just like physical disorders, they can bhave differing severity
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814348]the only way this could be inaccurate is if the doctor writes it down wrong[/QUOTE]
I see writing birth sex on the certificate is a concession to people who are offended by what these people are suggesting because I'm still not convinced that what you've talked about is information taken from a birth certificate. Show me some stuff and I'll understand - forgive me because my public health class didn't cover it.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814365]If they're comfortable in their body then why are they transitioning?
I literally am not understanding. How can you be trans while simultaneously not suffering from gender dysmorphia.[/QUOTE]
gender dysphoria =/= dysmorphia
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814324]by definition.[/QUOTE]
We have to all agree as an Internet Forum/Community that arguing based on definitions rarely works out well. Definitions for things are determined by people who could be wrong or have outdated modes of thought. Definitions can be outdated at best, socially biased at worst.
The old definition is wrong. As has been pointed out already. Body dysmorphia is no longer require to be considered transgender.
[QUOTE=Laferio;47814366]you're going to have to explain a bit further because I'm pretty confused.[/QUOTE]
Body dysmorphic disorder isn't just the feeling that your gender and sex don't match. A specific set of debilitating symptoms is required to make that diagnosis.
As a comparison, it's like how a person being sad isn't the same as a person being depressed; or how a person concerned about their hands being dirty isn't necessarily someone with OCD.
[QUOTE=Big Johnson;47814367]I mean this is the case for most people, the crossing over in relation to sex chromosomes usually results in say, someone who is XX identifying as a female or XY identifying as male. It's how reproduction do, it's there for a reason. Sometimes there are anomalies with chromosomes crossing over, which specifically in relation to X and Y chromosomes, can cause deviation to the norm in gender identity, this is not anything to do with external factors.[/QUOTE]
I've heard of this hypothesis but it is one among many. Show me some proof that I can read for myself.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814350]And I'd argue that a medical record making note of those distinctions and of potential complications which can result from treatment towards alleviating body dysmorphic disorder would be more meaningful and useful than a static birth certificate - which as I've said again in my experience is not information a doctor is automatically privy to.[/QUOTE]
I suppose, but I feel like there's some kind of ambiguous loss of meaning for what a birth certificate is and for what data should be stored on it. I won't pretend to be an expert in bureaucracy and data handling, but I feel like a birth certificate is a statement of existence and some basic facts: Name, parents, DOB, sex. Should we be removing sex from the certificate because it's available on a medical chart and thus redundant? Should the same be done for the name? Should birth certificates then just be merged into a greater medical chart and done away with as a whole? I feel like this is an extremely unnecessary argument over semantics and a disruption to a massive bureaucratic system all for little to zero actual effect. Changing the wording or removing a field from a birth certificate isn't going to make trans people's lives better, or make them more confident or give them a feeling of acceptance. If anything it will simply obscure an important piece of data and expend effort in revamping a certificate system for a zero sum gain all in an attempt at looking progressive and accepting of the trans community.
[QUOTE=mokkan;47814372]the medically accepted definition of a trans person is someone whos mental gender and physical sex do not match up. If you do not have this then you are not trans. You literally can not be trans unless you have that.
It doesnt have to make you unable to function, it doesnt have to give you suicidal thoughts. mental disorders are just like physical disorders, they can bhave differing severity[/QUOTE]
Definitions change all the time. Especially in this time period and subject. We are at the bleeding edge of human rights politics right now and we are slowly dismantling a social order that has existed with us since before recorded history. Change your definition. Accept the new. Learn a thing.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814373]I see writing birth sex on the certificate is a concession to people who are offended by what these people are suggesting because I'm still not convinced that what you've talked about is information taken from a birth certificate. Show me some stuff and I'll understand - forgive me because my public health class didn't cover it.[/QUOTE]
read my post I said its a concession to those people and is something that gives accurate records. having a blank box for gender that trans people can choose to fill with their mental gender only makes it more accurate
where do you think statistics on birth sex comes from if not birth.
[QUOTE=person11;47814394]Definitions change all the time. Especially in this time period and subject. We are at the bleeding edge of human rights politics right now and we are slowly dismantling a social order that has existed with us since before recorded history. Change your definition. Accept the new. Learn a thing.[/QUOTE]
No offense, but medicine is about science, not people's feelings. The way we express and think about gender in society may change, but a diagnosable medical condition will be entirely unaffected by arbitrary changes in culture.
[QUOTE=person11;47814394]Definitions change all the time. Especially in this time period and subject. We are at the bleeding edge of human rights politics right now and we are slowly dismantling a social order that has existed with us since before recorded history. Change your definition. Accept the new. Learn a thing.[/QUOTE]
If I can't use definitions then entire conversations have no context.
Can someone explain what is the point of transitioning if you're not experiencing any sort of dysmorphia? My understanding was you're experiencing a disconnect between your brain and body and therefore you're correcting the disconnect by matching your body with your brain. If you're not experiencing this disconnect why are you transitioning.
I think you're pulling shit out of your ass.
[QUOTE=srobins;47814389]I suppose, but I feel like there's some kind of ambiguous loss of meaning for what a birth certificate is and for what data should be stored on it. I won't pretend to be an expert in bureaucracy and data handling, but I feel like a birth certificate is a statement of existence and some basic facts: Name, parents, DOB, sex. Should we be removing sex from the certificate because it's available on a medical chart and thus redundant? Should the same be done for the name? Should birth certificates then just be merged into a greater medical chart and done away with as a whole? I feel like this is an extremely unnecessary argument over semantics and a disruption to a massive bureaucratic system all for little to zero actual effect. Changing the wording or removing a field from a birth certificate isn't going to make trans people's lives better, or make them more confident or give them a feeling of acceptance. If anything it will simply obscure an important piece of data and expend effort in revamping a certificate system for a zero sum gain all in an attempt at looking progressive and accepting of the trans community.[/QUOTE]
I understand your overall point, but I'd like to point out that I've been working in a bureaucratic hell of various public databases for years while working for campaigns and the DA's office and I never once needed to rely on sex to narrow down or find a set of records. Name and DOB are almost always enough. Social and birth location are good backups.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814404]If I can't use definitions then entire conversations have no context.
Can someone explain what is the point of transitioning if you're not experiencing any sort of dysmorphia?[/QUOTE]
For the hell of it I guess.
[QUOTE=person11;47814394]Definitions change all the time. Especially in this time period and subject. We are at the bleeding edge of human rights politics right now and we are slowly dismantling a social order that has existed with us since before recorded history. Change your definition. Accept the new. Learn a thing.[/QUOTE]
the definition of transgender is never going to change from that. you might as well argue with people saying heterosexual means to be attracted to attracted to the opposite sex.
[QUOTE=srobins;47814403]No offense, but medicine is about science, not people's feelings. The way we express and think about gender in society may change, but a diagnosable medical condition will be entirely unaffected by arbitrary changes in culture.[/QUOTE]
The way we have thought of sex and gender in medicine has reformed and changed over the years based on social and cultural factors. Remember hysteria?
Also, cultural changes on this scale are rarely arbitrary, even if wrong.
[QUOTE=srobins;47814389]I suppose, but I feel like there's some kind of ambiguous loss of meaning for what a birth certificate is and for what data should be stored on it. I won't pretend to be an expert in bureaucracy and data handling, but I feel like a birth certificate is a statement of existence and some basic facts: Name, parents, DOB, sex. Should we be removing sex from the certificate because it's available on a medical chart and thus redundant? Should the same be done for the name? Should birth certificates then just be merged into a greater medical chart and done away with as a whole? I feel like this is an extremely unnecessary argument over semantics and a disruption to a massive bureaucratic system all for little to zero actual effect. Changing the wording or removing a field from a birth certificate isn't going to make trans people's lives better, or make them more confident or give them a feeling of acceptance. If anything it will simply obscure an important piece of data and expend effort in revamping a certificate system for a zero sum gain all in an attempt at looking progressive and accepting of the trans community.[/QUOTE]
I see what you're saying. To me the sex or gender is different from a name, parents, or DOB because they're relevant in different situations compared to gender. You might have to prove your date of birth or your name less often than you'd have to prove that you're male or female.
If you think that it won't do much to help the trans community then I can see that, and it would be great if we could hear more reasoning from the people who are suggesting this. I however remain sympathetic to it even if I understand the bureaucratic and practical problems as both you and the article have specified.
In any case, I think it raises interesting questions about gender -- perhaps the point of the tribunal is to bring attention to the issue even if it is not practical.
[QUOTE=person11;47814416]The way we have thought of sex and gender in medicine has reformed and changed over the years based on social and cultural factors. Remember hysteria?
Also, cultural changes on this scale are rarely arbitrary, even if wrong.[/QUOTE]
Answer my question now.
the definition of trans is opposite. transgender literally means opposite gender ie mentally you are opposite to your birth gender.
mokkan, why do you think that being transgender requires mental distress (which is what body dysmorphic disorder is)? It's (unfortunately) extremely common, but it isn't a prerequisite for being transgender.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814422]mokkan, why do you think that being transgender requires mental distress (which is what body dysmorphic disorder is)? It's (unfortunately) extremely common, but it isn't a prerequisite for being transgender.[/QUOTE]
then what is?
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814404]If I can't use definitions then entire conversations have no context.
Can someone explain what is the point of transitioning if you're not experiencing any sort of dysmorphia? My understanding was you're experiencing a disconnect between your brain and body and therefore you're correcting the disconnect by matching your body with your brain. If you're not experiencing this disconnect why are you transitioning.
I think you're pulling shit out of your ass.[/QUOTE]
I'm just tired of people relying on definitions that may or may not be up to date anymore. Use real arguments instead of arguing semantics.
I'm not asking you to redefine literally every word that exists. I wanted to point out that the medical diagnosis of gender dysmorphia does not apply to many transgender people. Many transgender people consider the diagnosis and the idea of it being considered a medical condition, gravely offensive.
[QUOTE=person11;47814430]I'm just tired of people relying on definitions that may or may not be up to date anymore. Use real arguments instead of arguing semantics.
I'm not asking you to redefine literally every word that exists. I wanted to point out that the medical diagnosis of gender dysmorphia does not apply to many transgender people. Many transgender people consider the diagnosis and the idea of it being considered a medical condition, gravely offensive.[/QUOTE]
Talking to my friend about this on facebook.
Related:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/j6lD9HA.png[/IMG]
What about name? Should name be listed on a birth certificate if an individual comes to feel that their name is not their true identity?
[QUOTE=Laferio;47814428]then what is?[/QUOTE]
Having gender and sex that don't match. This doesn't always lead to distress, even though it often does.
I support changing it to XX/XY, it gives the relevant information and mitigates possible bad feelings on transgender people by seeing "male" as the sex on their birth certificate when they identify as "female" or vice versa. It's a small thing and means exactly the same but I believe it makes a difference.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.