B.C. Human Rights Tribunal to consider striking gender designation from birth certificates
279 replies, posted
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814517]I'm interested in the answer to the same question as well; the research I've read on it was inconclusive. Of course an explanation about why transgender people "switch" genders should also take into account why some do not. There used to be explanations but they were abandoned by medical experts because they were antiquated.
When I say I think gender is a social construct, it's because I remain critical of the biological explanations of which many have become deprecated in the light of newer science and because I acknowledge that there are places in the world which have completely different systems of gender and lack binaries. If gender is biological and has natural binaries then we need to explain why there are parts of the world which don't have binaries.[/QUOTE]
What parts of the world don't have binary gender?
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814509]Let me ask you what are they inconvenienced by, and uncomfortable with.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously suggesting that people can't experience the desire to change something without it spiralling out of control and becoming depression and OCD?
[QUOTE=srobins;47814487]I want to ask a question for those that think gender is 100% a social construct (as in, baby born in the wild with no human contact will have no inherent concept of gender), and I'm being genuine and not clever or snarky. If gender is entirely a social construct and has zero inborn influence on a human being's psychology, why do babies raised as the gender opposite their sex experience dysphoria? Moreover, how would anyone experience gender dysphoria in the first place if there was no inborn concept of gender for them to feel is in conflict against society? Why would so many transgender people "switch" genders rather than completely abandoning it and behaving entirely androgynously?[/QUOTE]
Physical manifestations of gender dysphoria have been known to involve things like the brain literally producing female hormones (estrogen, progesterone, and a third one whose name I forgot) for people in otherwise male bodies and vice versa as far as I know.
This does not necessarily mean being born with certain chromosomes should influence your social life in literally any way.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814523]Are you seriously suggesting that people can't experience the desire to change something without it spiralling out of control and becoming depression and OCD?[/QUOTE]
Lol did I say that, and you didn't answer my question.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814518]If you're an organ donor, and you need to be cut up right away they should know what they're cutting into.[/QUOTE]
They won't look at your birth certificate for this. It doesn't list things like blood type (stuff relevant to organ transplants)
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47814510]If I can step in, isn't their some statistic out there right now stating that people who have sex re-assignment surgery and hormone therapy are something about forty times more likely to commit suicide or be put into a mental institution for side effects in relation to it? I mean if that's the case, that's one of those things which shouldn't be played lightly with.
As for the question if they are transsexual, I'd prefer to just call them by the gender they assumed or were trying to achieve. As that is what they want. :v:[/QUOTE]
I've heard the exact opposite thing, that people who do it are much happier. But neither of us have sources so it's a moot point.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814528]They won't look at your birth certificate for this. It doesn't list things like blood type (stuff relevant to organ transplants)[/QUOTE]
They probably shouldn't start cutting, then accidentally cut into ovaries they didn't know were there.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814526]Lol did I say that, and you didn't answer my question.[/QUOTE]
I've answered it numerous times and you just find some pointless semantic rebuttal to make
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;47814510]If I can step in, isn't their some statistic out there right now stating that people who have sex re-assignment surgery and hormone therapy are something about forty times more likely to commit suicide or be put into a mental institution for side effects in relation to it? I mean if that's the case, that's one of those things which shouldn't be played lightly with.
As for the question if they are transsexual, I'd prefer to just call them by the gender they assumed or were trying to achieve. As that is what they want. :v:[/QUOTE]
Teenage men are also far more likely to commit suicide than teenage women. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814533]I've answered it numerous times and you just find some pointless semantic rebuttal to make[/QUOTE]
You said they are inconvienced and uncomfortable. Which would imply that yes, something is wrong.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814532]They probably shouldn't start cutting, then accidentally cut into ovaries they didn't know were there.[/QUOTE]
"Quickly, we need to cut up this random man to get a heart out!"
"Fuck, how did these ovaries get up here?"
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814539]"Quickly, we need to cut up this random man to get a heart out!"
"Fuck, how did these ovaries get up here?"[/QUOTE]
Sorry I didn't know the heart was the only useful organ they take. You're right, theres none in the lower half of the body.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814538]You said they are inconvienced and uncomfortable. Which would imply that yes, something is wrong.[/QUOTE]
Something is wrong. Things can be wrong, uncomfortable, and upsetting without being a debilitating mental disorder.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814523]Are you seriously suggesting that people can't experience the desire to change something without it spiralling out of control and becoming depression and OCD?[/QUOTE]
No, but I think there is an inherent medical and psychological distress involved in experiencing gender dysphoria. As happy and calm as many transgender people are or claim to be, there is a clear "issue" internally that they must acknowledge and confront, which is surely a sign of distress. Medical distress isn't the same as distress in common English, which is probably why so many people get up in arms over the definition of gender dysphoria. In any case, gender dysphoria isn't defined the way it is by sadistic, trans-hating doctors as an attempt at offending them and making them look crazy or depressed. It's an attempt at properly labeling a condition and providing proper guidelines for recognizing and diagnosing it. Anyone that is offended by the inclusion of "distress" in the definition of gender dysphoria is remarkably hyper-sensitive imo.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814541]Sorry I didn't know the heart was the only useful organ they take.[/QUOTE]
Good thing this person carried their birth certificate in their pocket, the only document that lists whether or not someone has ovaries.
Look, if someone is being operated on their chart is going to literally be stuck to the end of the bed. That's what doctors need.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814545]Good thing this person carried their birth certificate in their pocket, the only document that lists whether or not someone has ovaries.
Look, if someone is being operated on their chart is going to literally be stuck to the end of the bed. That's what doctors need.[/QUOTE]
I was arguing for having it on their drivers license.
[QUOTE=srobins;47814544]No, but I think there is an inherent medical and psychological distress involved in experiencing gender dysphoria. As happy and calm as many transgender people are or claim to be, there is a clear "issue" internally that they must acknowledge and confront, which is surely a sign of distress. Medical distress isn't the same as distress in common English, which is probably why so many people get up in arms over the definition of gender dysphoria. In any case, gender dysphoria isn't defined the way it is by sadistic, trans-hating doctors as an attempt at offending them and making them look crazy or depressed. It's an attempt at properly labeling a condition and providing proper guidelines for recognizing and diagnosing it. Anyone that is offended by the inclusion of "distress" in the definition of gender dysphoria is remarkably hyper-sensitive imo.[/QUOTE]
But my point is that body dysmorphic disorder is a separate thing from dysphoria. Dysphoria is the mismatch between sex and gender, while BDD is something that often, but does not necessarily, accompany it. Not all transgender people are experiencing serious psychological symptoms, and requiring that is an unfair limitation on who can be considered transgender.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814542]Something is wrong. Things can be wrong, uncomfortable, and upsetting without being a debilitating mental disorder.[/QUOTE]
a mental disorder can have degrees, it doesn't have to be debilitating to be a disorder. that there is a wrongness would show that something isn't all peachy keen and is, well, not all in order.
take something like autism, it can range from incredibly debilitating where the person can't survive on their own to being mostly unnoticable except to those who are looking but that doesn't change that there is still a disorder there
[QUOTE=Bruhmis;47813841]which is just utterly stupid. the concepts of Male and Female are physical things. we are all born as one of these, just like nearly every other living creature in the world. if someone decides that they're unsatisfied with the way they were born, that's their business, but that isn't a good reason to start pretending that humans aren't born either male or female.[/QUOTE]
and you know the tons of diseases like autism and colorblindness that are more prevalent in one gender are important to consider
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47814555]a mental disorder can have degrees, it doesn't have to be debilitating to be a disorder. that there is a wrongness would show that something isn't all peachy keen and is, well, not all in order.
take something like autism, it can range from incredibly debilitating where the person can't survive on their own to being mostly unnoticable except to those who are looking but that doesn't change that there is still a disorder there[/QUOTE]
Thank you thats what I was trying to say.
[QUOTE=srobins;47814521]What parts of the world don't have binary gender?[/QUOTE]
Native-American societies are a famous example:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit[/url]
There are also the Hijra of India:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)[/url]
There's the Fa'afafine:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine[/url]
Indonesia:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Bugis_society[/url]
The point isn't to say that it's common, but we have to be able to explain why these distinctions exist if we are biologically pre-disposed to a binary.
Not to mention, in the Far-East many societies already accept that male and female are social distinctions and not biological. This is why they don't have as large taboo's on transgenderism as the West did.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814551]I was arguing for having it on their drivers license.[/QUOTE]
If you go in for emergency surgery the doctors are just going to use whatever ID you have on you to get your name, and then immediately type that into a computer to get your actual medical information. No doctor is going to start cutting you open based on what a piece of paper in your pocket says unless it's some strange one-in-a-million life or death scenario where actual medical information is unavailable.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814561]If you go in for emergency surgery the doctors are just going to use whatever ID you have on you to get your name, and then immediately type that into a computer to get your actual medical information. No doctor is going to start cutting you open based on what a piece of paper in your pocket says unless it's some strange one-in-a-million life or death scenario where actual medical information is unavailable.[/QUOTE]
It WOULD be unavailable because YOU DIDN'T LET THEM PUT IT ON THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE.
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47814568]It WOULD be unavailable because YOU DIDN'T LET THEM PUT IT ON THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE.[/QUOTE]
Doctors do not have access to your birth certificate
Shouldn't we be past that argument considering we've hopefully already established that a doctor has no access to a birth-certificate unless you volunteer that information?
I'm a very sick kid and I've never shown the doctor my birth-certificate, so for at least the United States I can say that's possibly a moot point.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814552]But my point is that body dysmorphic disorder is a separate thing from dysphoria. Dysphoria is the mismatch between sex and gender, while BDD is something that often, but does not necessarily, accompany it. Not all transgender people are experiencing serious psychological symptoms, and requiring that is an unfair limitation on who can be considered transgender.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone was trying to imply that transgender people must necessarily be depressed to be transgender, just that they must all have some feeling of discomfort with their gender and used what might technically be the incorrect term
like I don't think there's actually an argument here
[QUOTE=Richoxen;47813874][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/GXTDAPJ.png[/IMG]
[b]That's exactly what I'd expect someone pushing this to look like.[/b]
Just let em' change it later if they're so inclined. But at that age it's semi-relevant to have their actual gender on there.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you can correctly visualize what the problem is and project it on to another human being.
Did you really just say that? In what way does that statement move this debate forward? You can't expect anybody to look a certain way based on their ideas.
[QUOTE=person11;47814524]Physical manifestations of gender dysphoria have been known to involve things like the brain literally producing female hormones (estrogen, progesterone, and a third one whose name I forgot) for people in otherwise male bodies and vice versa as far as I know.
This does not necessarily mean being born with certain chromosomes should influence your social life in literally any way.[/QUOTE]
If this is true (I've never heard about it but I'm not necessarily doubting it) it would be even more proof that gender isn't just a social construct, but rather a physiologically-influenced psychological trait. I honestly feel the idea of gender being some totally invalid social construct is completely flawed and a step too far in attempts to be progressive and accepting of the trans community. I fully support trans people and the concepts therein but some of the attempts to change language and medicine in an attempt to hide what I believe to be a genuine biologically-ingrained part of human society is futile and meaningless imo. It's completely missing the point and it's obscuring and confusing things that are the basis of our species and of most life forms on Earth. Changing society to accept trans people is a meaningful and important cause, but it's bleeding into areas like medicine and is apparently even convincing some people of things that simply aren't true (to my knowledge). If medicine is going to change its concepts of sex and gender it should come to those conclusions based on research and evidence, not on the backs of protest from an extremely vocal minority because of their emotions.
[QUOTE=thisispain;47814573]Shouldn't we be passed that argument considering we've hopefully already established that a doctor has no access to a birth-certificate unless you volunteer that information?
I'm a very sick kid and I've never shown the doctor my birth-certificate, so for at least the United States I can say that's possibly a moot point.[/QUOTE]
I would hope that doctors are not using any piece of personal identification to make medical decisions. The amount of information they have on file is going to be more up-to-date and accurate than anything I carry on myself.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;47814584]I would hope that doctors are not using any piece of personal identification to make medical decisions. The amount of information they have on file is going to be more up-to-date and accurate than anything I carry on myself.[/QUOTE]
I don't know, I've heard some good arguments but I've also seen some which seem to overstate the severity of this proposed change.
So far I do know that doctors in the United States do not have access to your birth-certificate nor do statistical researchers use it because they opt for the Certificate of Life Birth which cannot be changed like your birth certificate can.
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