• Soldier's death sparks debate over arming medevacs
    94 replies, posted
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34694793]well if you put better engines in and create more room, you already have a better casevac platform, why reduce it's casevac potential by adding a minigun? if you want attack and cover capability, go for an attack helicopter. if you want better casevac, get a dedicated casevac platform. The Mi-24 Hind, iyo, would be an almost perfect casevac platform, yet it isn't used as such.[/QUOTE] The US did try to make a hind as well, but it just doesn't seem to work. Plus you don't get alot of room in a hind.
[QUOTE=Maximo13;34691876]I'm sure insurgents don't even know what the red cross symbolizes.[/QUOTE] Of course they know. That's why they shoot them.
If they can't use guns maybe they should have a armed escort that is attached to the medical EVAC unit and only goes in to the skies when the medical unit does.
Micheal Yon's arguments for arming the medevacs seem pretty convincing to me. I think you all should read a pair from the MANY dispatches he has written on the subject. Red Air, which details the death of Spc. Clark and Yon's inspiration to start the medevac campaign. [URL="http://www.michaelyon-online.com/red-air-americas-medevac-failure.htm"]http://www.michaelyon-online.com/red-air-americas-medevac-failure.htm[/URL] Golden Seconds is an open letter to the President and the Defense Secretary which covers Micheal Yon's argument for why the helicopters need to be armed [URL="http://www.michaelyon-online.com/golden-seconds.htm"]http://www.michaelyon-online.com/golden-seconds.htm[/URL]
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34693809]however it doesn't explain why the USAF and Brits arm their medevacs, there must be an argument for that.[/QUOTE] Part of the USAF wheelhouse is search and rescue. Finding pilots who are trying to avoid enemy forces. Possibly completely uninjured. The Army doesn't really have much call for that. They have helicopters, but even gunships are rarely put very far at all into enemy lines. They provide direct support to ground forces. So when the army calls for a medevac, they have troops on the ground at that location and known exactly where they are going. USAF calls can include standard medevacs, but also can include scenarios where they need to hunt for missing personnel in potentially dangerous areas. The USAF has an entire special forces team on par with the green berets or Seals that is tasked with SAR ops. [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=trotskygrad;34694793]well if you put better engines in and create more room, you already have a better casevac platform, why reduce it's casevac potential by adding a minigun? if you want attack and cover capability, go for an attack helicopter. if you want better casevac, get a dedicated casevac platform. The Mi-24 Hind, iyo, would be an almost perfect casevac platform, yet it isn't used as such.[/QUOTE] The Hind is MASSIVE. Really hard to fit in all the places you need them to.
They should just shoot excess syringes.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;34697854]They should just shoot excess syringes.[/QUOTE] [img]http://tf2wiki.net/w/images/thumb/4/4a/RED_Syringe_Gun.png/250px-RED_Syringe_Gun.png[/img] [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;34697155]Part of the USAF wheelhouse is search and rescue. Finding pilots who are trying to avoid enemy forces. Possibly completely uninjured. The Army doesn't really have much call for that. They have helicopters, but even gunships are rarely put very far at all into enemy lines. They provide direct support to ground forces. So when the army calls for a medevac, they have troops on the ground at that location and known exactly where they are going. USAF calls can include standard medevacs, but also can include scenarios where they need to hunt for missing personnel in potentially dangerous areas. The USAF has an entire special forces team on par with the green berets or Seals that is tasked with SAR ops. [editline]14th February 2012[/editline] The Hind is MASSIVE. Really hard to fit in all the places you need them to.[/QUOTE] still doesn't explain why the british don't. the hind is massive however it's smaller than the Mi-8, which is the primary casevac for most CIS countries IIRC.
I'm pretty sure the reason British forces have armed medivac choppers is because our budget is tiny in comparison to the US Army budget. Therefore the medivac choppers would be used in multiple roles such as troop transport, and we would not be able to afford escort choppers too.
[QUOTE=VistaPOWA;34691759]Arming them would pretty much annul the Geneva Conventions, medical units need to be impartial, tend to the sick and wounded regardless of the side they're on, not kill the enemy.[/QUOTE] That's well and fine and all, but the enemy shoot medics. I think Germany was usually pretty good in NOT shooting our medics in WW2, but after that, No one we fought gave a flying fuck, and still don't. The least of which is Al-Fucking-Qaeda and any other religious idiots that traverse the globe just to try and kill an "infidel." Arm them.
Our medics are armed but like people have said, putting weapons on a medevac chopper is useless, it weighs down the vehicle too much and is a hassle, who is going to maintain the weapons, the medics? and having to load the weapons and load the extra crew members plus ammo would add more time to the time it takes for a chopper to take off.
[QUOTE=VistaPOWA;34691759]Arming them would pretty much annul the Geneva Conventions, medical units need to be impartial, tend to the sick and wounded regardless of the side they're on, not kill the enemy.[/QUOTE] As if anyone follows the Geneva convention anymore. Alot of countries bend the rules.
The MH-47 is a better platform for CASEVAC anyway. The British MERT systems seems to be much more efficient, and they still have mounted weaponry.
I think we end up using Lynxs for Medivacs, which really are troop transport anyway.
I'll just assume you don't need a M61 Vulcan to clear out a "hot" LZ, I think 2 guys with rifles should go relatively fine.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;34708120]The MH-47 is a better platform for CASEVAC anyway. The British MERT systems seems to be much more efficient, and they still have mounted weaponry.[/QUOTE] Its more vulnerable to heavy weapons fire.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34695426]well the argument is that the casevac can only carry one patient anyways (because the medic can only attend to one patient) and the argument that defensive weapons weight too much does not really apply when the casevac isn't going to be used at maximum capacity anyways[/QUOTE] While it might not matter that it can't carry more patients the added weight can still affect the aircraft's speed and altitude ceiling. The latter being very important for it to operate in the mountainous areas of Afghanistan. It's kind of a tricky situation; adding guns to the helicopters could reduce their operating effectiveness while adding dedicated escort helicopters or even just a couple standard Blackhawks for situations like this might require money and manpower that isn't available.
[QUOTE=Hans-Gunther 3.;34708277]I'll just assume you don't need a M61 Vulcan to clear out a "hot" LZ, I think 2 guys with rifles should go relatively fine.[/QUOTE] [B][I]hahahahaha[/I][/B] no, actually two guys with rifles will probably go pretty badly. At a LZ any threat is multiplied exponentially as you have to bring soldiers into closer proximity while moving into the helicopter and a helicopter is a relatively large target. staying on the ground for any amount of time in a helicopter is a risky proposition when under fire.
[QUOTE=Meller Yeller;34692869]Yeah just like if you paint flames on it, it will go faster.[/QUOTE] Speedholes
[QUOTE=Safer;34709005]Its more vulnerable to heavy weapons fire.[/QUOTE] the H-67 series is more armored in general than the H-60 series, just saying
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;34708120]The MH-47 is a better platform for CASEVAC anyway. The British MERT systems seems to be much more efficient, and they still have mounted weaponry.[/QUOTE] The MH-47 is the special operations variant of the CH-47. Only a few even exist. The Chinook still can't land in all the places a blackhawk can, and it suffers from decreased mobility (though a better top speed than the blackhawk) as well as a distinct lack of armor plating for many of its systems. The Brits misuse the crap out of the Chinook. It isn't a wise choice for a combat transport. [editline]15th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=trotskygrad;34710737]the H-67 series is more armored in general than the H-60 series, just saying[/QUOTE] Nah, it really isn't. The UH-60 was designed from the ground up to be a combat helicopter. Everything that can be armored, is armored. Even if something goes wrong, you'd be hard pressed to find a helicopter that size that can crash better.
[QUOTE=GunFox;34712275] Nah, it really isn't. The UH-60 was designed from the ground up to be a combat helicopter. Everything that can be armored, is armored. Even if something goes wrong, you'd be hard pressed to find a helicopter that size that can crash better.[/QUOTE] actually I remember the H-60 had more problems with bullets going through the floor than the H-47
Do me a favor and remind me why this wasn't done in the first place? Any sensible enemy combatant will target the medical support first so there will be less of a chance of an enemy getting back up and fighting. It seems like simple logic. I mean they have the UH-60s with the Avengers on the side, and they can still use the cargo bay.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;34713874]actually I remember the H-60 had more problems with bullets going through the floor than the H-47[/QUOTE] The UH-60 was designed from the ground up to be a combat transport. The CH-47 was always a cargo helicopter. The available lift to cargo space ratio favors the blackhawk for armor plating against small arms. And again, the CH-47's crash mortality rate is going to be leaps and bounds higher than the UH-60.
[QUOTE=CertainDOOM;34691980]That line really made me sad.[/QUOTE] From that I imagined the scene in my head and almost let loose a tear
[QUOTE=Azgorath;34698704]Our medics are armed but like people have said, putting weapons on a medevac chopper is useless, it weighs down the vehicle too much and is a hassle, who is going to maintain the weapons, the medics? and having to load the weapons and load the extra crew members plus ammo would add more time to the time it takes for a chopper to take off.[/QUOTE] I don't see why this is a problem at all? The UH-60's can carry around 9,000 pounds and fly just fine. They can also carry about 13 guys with full combat loads. So why would arming the couple of crew members be a hassle
give them guns. medics should be able to kill in self defense. 'personal weaponry' is not enough.
[QUOTE=Hans-Gunther 3.;34708277]I'll just assume you don't need a M61 Vulcan to clear out a "hot" LZ, I think 2 guys with rifles should go relatively fine.[/QUOTE]Not when it's moving, relatively high up, or faces flying through a fairly large enemy force to get to friendlies. A SAW or 2 might be enough, though.
Where are all your guys' sources that "Insurgents don't give a shit about red crosses"
[QUOTE=TheTalon;34716068]I don't see why this is a problem at all? The UH-60's can carry around 9,000 pounds and fly just fine. They can also carry about 13 guys with full combat loads. So why would arming the couple of crew members be a hassle[/QUOTE] They are armed. [editline]16th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Kung Fu Jew;34716084]give them guns. medics should be able to kill in self defense. 'personal weaponry' is not enough.[/QUOTE] They do carry weapons.
[QUOTE=Kung Fu Jew;34716084]give them guns. medics should be able to kill in self defense. 'personal weaponry' is not enough.[/QUOTE] The helicopters can't accept weapons. They are blackhawk variants dedicated to medevacs. HH-60M's have no gunports. [img]http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1986/380089972959e5ce89ffo.jpg[/img] Meanwhile UH-60M's (And UH-60L's and A's) DO have gun ports. You can see the extra little window with the M134 hanging out of it. [img]http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3746/1616149.jpg[/img] Adding guns would require a huge overhaul of existing helicopters.
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