• E3 Audience Offended By "Rape Joke" At Microsoft Xbox One Event
    325 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Reimu;41006565]I think the equality in this case, though, is the ability to host a trash talk session without any references that could be perceived as something part of rape culture. Which means the phrase he said has go to go. There's a million other things he could've said which don't sound triggering or aren't stereotypical of rape culture, anyway. "You're getting owned," "You're going down," "Oh geez wow that's some bad third-degree burns," "You know I'm going to record this beatdown right?" etc. I mean, if commentators on Kotaku can respond to Hernandez's new article and say "Yes, that phrase is commonly uttered within rape," certainly it should've dawned on the guy's head that he had to pick choice words to say .[/QUOTE] You didn't read a word I said You really, really, really didn't.
[QUOTE=Diet Kane;41009180]I'm sorry I make fun of Patricia Hernandez for being a poor writer, a sensationalist, and a contributor to a yellow journalism blog website that is detrimental to gaming journalism (yeah yeah gaming journalism is already a joke whatever). Got any more passive aggression in your bag of self-righteousness or can we actually discuss and inform opposing sides instead of belittling each other.[/QUOTE] but you didn't do any of that in the post raidyr linked? you just called her a gorilla and posted a picture of her playing with a red ball
Can you guys please take this classiness of a debate towards the debate subforum where dead seascrolls are accepted? Personally, I think Microsoft should apologize at the very least though. It would probably calm this shitstorm down.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41006565]There's a million other things he could've said which don't sound triggering or aren't stereotypical of rape culture, anyway. [b]"You're getting owned," "You're going down,"[/b] "Oh geez wow that's some bad third-degree burns," [b]"You know I'm going to record this beatdown right?"[/b] etc. I mean, if commentators on Kotaku can respond to Hernandez's new article and say "Yes, that phrase is commonly uttered within rape," certainly it should've dawned on the guy's head that he had to pick choice words to say :v:.[/QUOTE] I don't know, some of those phrases, especially the ones I bolded could also be taken in a bad light. I've certainly heard phrases like "going down on someone" used in sexual contexts, "getting owned" can be construed as sexual domination, and the phrase that this is being recorded is especially creepy, when used with the other phrases I highlighted. There's really no reason to see the examples you posted as any more palatable then the ones uttered in the press conference, unless I'm missing something. [QUOTE=conan96;41014058]Can you guys please take this classiness of a debate towards the debate subforum where dead seascrolls are accepted? I think Microsoft should apologize at the very least though. It would probably calm this shitstorm down.[/QUOTE] They did apologize, nobody really noticed or cared, actually. From the OP's articles... [QUOTE] "Yesterday, during the Xbox E3 briefing, one of our employees made an off the cuff and inappropriate comment while demoing 'Killer Instinct' with another employee. This comment was offensive and we apologize. At Microsoft, being open and respectful with others is central to our code of conduct and our values. Bullying and harassment of any kind is not condoned and is taken very seriously. We remain committed to make gaming fun for everyone, and in that effort, we must lead by example." [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41013843]You didn't read a word I said You really, really, really didn't.[/QUOTE] Yes I did. The inequality here is that one person feels they are in a safe space (the producer) while those perceiving the joke feel unsafe (triggered survivors, upset developers, etc.). In an in-game context, this is essentially inequality - one person feels safe making rape jokes, another person feels triggered. It's unequal because the trash talker has a safe space to relax, whereas the triggered survivor/upset player is automatically placed in a situation where gender-based harassment can trigger their trauma and disrupt their enjoyment. [quote] I don't know, some of those phrases, especially the ones I bolded could also be taken in a bad light. I've certainly heard phrases like "going down on someone" used in sexual contexts, "getting owned" can be construed as sexual domination, and the phrase that this is being recorded is especially creepy, when used with the other phrases I highlighted. There's really no reason to see the examples you posted as any more palatable then the ones uttered in the press conference, unless I'm missing something.[/quote] If you completely substituted those phrases, though, they don't have any sort of stereotypical relation to rape culture. Phrases like "You like this don't you?" and "Don't worry it will be over soon" have a history of being in the same sort of context within rape. "You're going down" is the sort of phrase you hear on a kid's cartoon show. "You got owned" is pretty much synonymous with online competitive gaming before "rape" became a huge trash talk concept, and "beatdown" is considered more synonymous with fighting than rape. Besides, radfem gamers don't get upset about those phrases in trash talk, unless rape is directly found within the context (i.e. "You're getting burned," while teabagging a player). After all, Patricia Hernandez never wrote an article saying "You got owned" is misogynistic. She wrote about how certain phrases within trash talk culture can be gendered; not necessarily that trash talk phrases are inherently triggering. Saying phrases which feel and sound creepy are the problem - not trash talk itself. I understand what you're saying, but it's not like the Microsoft case is just a misunderstanding of context. Again, this is more than just radfems being upset - there's developers actively complaining about Microsoft's choices on twitter. There's a certain imagery to "It will be over soon" that you don't get with "wow this is a beatdown." One sounds creepy, the other sounds over-the-top.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41015463] If you completely substituted those phrases, though, they don't have any sort of stereotypical relation to rape culture. Phrases like "You like this don't you?" and "Don't worry it will be over soon" have a history of being in the same sort of context within rape. "You're going down" is the sort of phrase you hear on a kid's cartoon show. "You got owned" is pretty much synonymous with online competitive gaming before "rape" became a huge trash talk concept, and "beatdown" is considered more synonymous with fighting than rape.[/quote] No pal, you didn't read because you wouldn't repeat the same thing about how language isn't transitory and how it doesn't adopt to the loss of words in that sense and how censoring peoples words is wrong and doesn't really boost your cause. Again, it's really, really, all up to who's hearing it. And you're as guilty of anyone else as interpretting this in your own terms and applying it to your own idea of offensive and it's really strange how you don't notice that while calling us all unempathetic. [QUOTE]It's unequal because the trash talker has a safe space to relax, whereas the triggered survivor/upset player is automatically placed in a situation where gender-based harassment can trigger their trauma and disrupt their enjoyment.[/QUOTE] but what if that person has a chronic fear of the word beatdown? Wrecked? What if society changes what a word means in the contexts you're applying it to? It really, really doesn't matter and every example you write keeps proving to me you don't care to do anything but state your own opinion. Normal people should be upset because microsoft fucked up, it shows a lack of care on Microsofts part, but it doesn't show "hey, that phrase is always a reference to rape, and therefore, those words in that order are wrong" what makes "gender neutral" insults either better, or less offensive? What makes them not interpretable as offensive? What if they are? What do you do? Those words are wrong now, aren't they? that's what you've been saying
[QUOTE=Reimu;41015463]Yes I did. The inequality here is that one person feels they are in a safe space (the producer) while those perceiving the joke feel unsafe (triggered survivors, upset developers, etc.). In an in-game context, this is essentially inequality - one person feels safe making rape jokes, another person feels triggered. It's unequal because the trash talker has a safe space to relax, whereas the triggered survivor/upset player is automatically placed in a situation where gender-based harassment can trigger their trauma and disrupt their enjoyment. If you completely substituted those phrases, though, they don't have any sort of stereotypical relation to rape culture. Phrases like "You like this don't you?" and "Don't worry it will be over soon" have a history of being in the same sort of context within rape. "You're going down" is the sort of phrase you hear on a kid's cartoon show. "You got owned" is pretty much synonymous with online competitive gaming before "rape" became a huge trash talk concept, and "beatdown" is considered more synonymous with fighting than rape. Besides, radfem gamers don't get upset about those phrases in trash talk, unless rape is directly found within the context (i.e. "You're getting burned," while teabagging a player). After all, Patricia Hernandez never wrote an article saying "You got owned" is misogynistic. She wrote about how certain phrases within trash talk culture can be gendered; not necessarily that trash talk phrases are inherently triggering. Saying phrases which feel and sound creepy are the problem - not trash talk itself. I understand what you're saying, but it's not like the Microsoft case is just a misunderstanding of context. Again, this is more than just radfems being upset - there's developers actively complaining about Microsoft's choices on twitter. There's a certain imagery to "It will be over soon" that you don't get with "wow this is a beatdown." One sounds creepy, the other sounds over-the-top.[/QUOTE] You haven't really given me a good explanation of how your proposed trash-talk is any less problematic: it's still going to have a man, in a position of dominance, mocking or berating a woman. That's not really okay now, is it? There are plenty of contexts where "You like this don't you?" and "Don't worry it will be over soon!" are able to be used in an inoffensive context as well! Saying these phrases, from one man to another man, *is* okay because it doesn't have the same connotations. In light of the current situation, yes, the phrases you suggested as alternatives are just as problematic and are no more permissible for being employed.
Given the opportunity, I would get rid of trash talk culture in gaming altogether. The power dynamic found within it makes a lot of gamers extremely uncomfortable; myself included. But the power dynamic doesn't seem to inherently trigger rape survivors, sociologically speaking. From my friends who are rape survivors and trash talk, the real issue is when gender comes into play - gender-neutral terms aren't a problem; it's when they're at fault because they're a "bitch" or "stupid woman." That's an issue that seems to replicate the sociological issue of gender roles and misogyny; whereas non-gendered insults don't carry that "sexist weight." Individually, certain phrases might upset survivors and every traumatic event has its own unique triggers. There's certain contexts which seem to be universally triggering, and in this case, this comment did upset a lot of people. Even if it seems very vague, that means there definitely should be an analysis of [i]why[/i] it was triggering. Of course, the real focus on the self-censorship comes from actively thinking about misogyny and rape culture in daily life. If we create a discourse within society which creates a foundation for people to think about language in the first place, then it's much easier to tackle those personal triggers. Who cares if the language changes? We can tackle that as it comes. But, if we tell people that certain phrases/jokes are triggering, then we're at least introducing the concept that we need to actively think about what we say in front of others. The fetishization of language is just a tool in order to make people think more about the consequences on others around them. Making a huge deal out of the contemporary language allows us to create a discourse which tackles triggering words/contexts that seem to be upsetting people at large. Then we can deal with the personal triggers on a case-by-case basis once people actually respect that rape culture exists. [quote]but what if that person has a chronic fear of the word beatdown? Wrecked? What if society changes what a word means in the contexts you're applying it to?[/quote] If society changes what "beatdown" and "wrecked" means, that's different. But there's no sociological viewpoint which links those words with rape culture. In our society, if "beatdown" triggers someone individually, then that trigger can be dealt with on a personal level in order to create a safe environment for the survivor (i.e. if someone knows a friend who's triggered by certain words, then they can actively take steps to avoid that language). Meanwhile, "it'll be over soon" seems to have this weird connection to rape that's upsetting a lot of people and triggering rape survivors. So it's easier to have that discourse, because it's a concept that seems to represent rape's power dynamics.
discourse? this is people telling everyone that certain words regardless of context mean rape no one has made an argument to say this, they just say it is so because some people feel it is that way i understand it was offensive to some people, and microsoft is at fault for this and what not, but at the same time, what's considered offensive will change. if we start this path where we start making phrases and whole sections of language taboo because hey, at one point, they were related to rape culture then where does it end? do you even really understand what you're saying being against the loss and barring of language in this manner doesn't make me lack empathy or anything else to that extent. It just doesn't add up to me in the end that this is how we make things better.
This is hardly anything bad and I think people are just grinding against Microsoft for being Microsoft. But still a really bad idea especially when this horrible PR flow won't stop.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41015724]Given the opportunity, I would get rid of trash talk culture in gaming altogether. The power dynamic found within it makes a lot of gamers extremely uncomfortable; myself included. But the power dynamic doesn't seem to inherently trigger rape survivors, sociologically speaking. From my friends who are rape survivors and trash talk, the real issue is when gender comes into play - gender-neutral terms aren't a problem; it's when they're at fault because they're a "bitch" or "stupid woman." That's an issue that seems to replicate the sociological issue of gender roles and misogyny; whereas non-gendered insults don't carry that "sexist weight." Individually, certain phrases might upset survivors and every traumatic event has its own unique triggers. There's certain contexts which seem to be universally triggering, and in this case, this comment did upset a lot of people. Even if it seems very vague, that means there definitely should be an analysis of [i]why[/i] it was triggering. Of course, the real focus on the self-censorship comes from actively thinking about misogyny and rape culture in daily life. If we create a discourse within society which creates a foundation for people to think about language in the first place, then it's much easier to tackle those personal triggers. Who cares if the language changes? We can tackle that as it comes. But, if we tell people that certain phrases/jokes are triggering, then we're at least introducing the concept that we need to actively think about what we say in front of others. The fetishization of language is just a tool in order to make people think more about the consequences on others around them. Making a huge deal out of the contemporary language allows us to create a discourse which tackles triggering words/contexts that seem to be upsetting people at large. Then we can deal with the personal triggers on a case-by-case basis once people actually respect that rape culture exists. [/QUOTE] I am not disputing that rape culture exists, but I find the idea that language must be carefully navigated to remove any potential source of offense to be impractical. There's the problem, firstly, that there is no objective standard for what is offensive: even on the level of individual people, a person's idea of whether something is offensive or not depends on the position that they are currently in. If you have some evidence that there are triggers that are objective and totally universal, I would appreciate some evidence of that. But even then, I dispute the fact that worrying about language is necessary or even consequential. At the end of the day, this is an argument over what one person said in relation to the X-Box, and in and of itself looks wonderfully silly to people who aren't immersed in gamer culture. It also bothers me how damnably arbitrary these controversies arise. There are much better examples of sexism and rape culture in gaming i.e. things like Dragon's Crown. Yet we have CBS reporting *this* incident and we are debating over *this* subject.
Look at how many times they have changed the PC way to describe retarded kids. "Retard" is considered offensive to some, so it was changed to Mentally challenged/handicapped/deficient/impaired/etc. But now even that is often considered insulting, so now the correct term for the disability is developmentally disabled/delayed (which is already being phased out for yet another term due to it being "insulting"). How many times are we going to change how to say someone is retarded until people finally understand that it's not the word(s) but the [I]context[/I] that matters?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41015761]discourse? this is people telling everyone that certain words regardless of context mean rape no one has made an argument to say this, they just say it is so because some people feel it is that way[/quote] This discussion itself is part of a much larger discourse about a.) rape culture phrases and words within gaming and b.) the nature of rape culture within society. I mean, in this thread alone we've seen a lot of people lampooning feminists and satirizing things like checking privilege. People who are offended by a rape joke are being "oversensitive," which is a bit of a stretch seeing how so many people across the gaming community think this joke reeks of rape culture. Sure, maybe it's not the best discussion because there seems to be so much resistance as to whether this is actually a rape joke in the first place. That doesn't mean there aren't other gaming communities who virtually agree that this is a rape joke. And that certainly doesn't mean that we can't have a meta discussion about misogyny in the gaming community. On IGN alone, when a feminist entered a forum discussion about this, posters started calling her "a little bitch," posting rape jokes, telling her to support MRA's instead, and sexually harassing her. And, if posters can't take this joke seriously, what will happen when a joke pops up that directly references rape? Are gamers still going to say feminists are taking rape jokes "too seriously?" Probably, knowing gaming culture's relationship with rape jokes. So when do gamers finally respect rape culture, and stop acting so misogynistic against women who raise the issue? Again, when IGN tried to have this kind of discussion on the prominence of rape, they thought their feminist poster was out of her mind and started spamming her. I just don't think the gaming community is even ready to tackle its own problems with gender roles. [quote]i understand it was offensive to some people, and microsoft is at fault for this and what not, but at the same time, what's considered offensive will change. if we start this path where we start making phrases and whole sections of language taboo because hey, at one point, they were related to rape culture then where does it end? do you even really understand what you're saying[/quote] I don't think anyone here is suggesting that language is a static issue. It's fluid, which is one of the reasons why social justice groups constantly watch how language develops in order to target it. But social justice takes a very, very long time in changing language. It took years for "negro" to be considered offensive, and only recently have words like "nigger" been seen as globally offensive due to their historical roots. People still regularly use "cunt" as a derogatory term for women, and it's still a pretty novel idea that feminists are taking back the term "cunt" and using it as a self-identifying adjective. Because of the innroads of this language, and because of how so many people are fiercely defending phrases and words, it takes a very long time to change how people are willing to use words within society. Which is why it makes a perfect opportunity for social justice groups to challenge language. Society is suppose to challenge these words, because the conflict itself is a good example for discussion. In this case, I think a lot of people don't see the joke because it appears very vague. In my opinion, it's still there - the phrase "It'll be over soon" in power dynamics and rape jokes seems to crop up a lot. I don't stand alone either, which I think is incredibly important. [quote]being against the loss and barring of language in this manner doesn't make me lack empathy or anything else to that extent. It just doesn't add up to me in the end that this is how we make things better.[/QUOTE] This keeps coming up and I don't know why. I'm not saying that the language is a telltale sign of empathy. Rape culture and misogyny are very advanced issues. You said yourself that you sympathize with people triggered, so I think we're misunderstanding each other here. The problem is when people think triggered individuals are being "oversensitive," or people are unwilling to check their privilege. There are a lot of posters on here who don't even think rape culture exists, let alone that feminism is a valuable social movement. Or they don't respect trigger traumas, and they think trigger warnings are oversensitive tools. I think this is kind of like Raidyr & TheJoey's issue. Raidyr suggested that TheJoey wasn't empathetic towards rape victims because he didn't see the language the way he did. That's not true, because TheJoey knows rape victims and has supported them in the past. Just because TheJoey feels one way about the joke doesn't necessarily mean that I can tell him he's not empathetic when he clearly is. If TheJoey said "this joke doesn't make sense, and people who are upset have no right to be offended," that's different. That's where the lack of empathy comes in.
last post was going to be my last but I haven't seen this and it's 2 days late and rather relevant [QUOTE]Microsoft has provided the following statement, [B]clarifying that the banter was not scripted[/B]. "Yesterday, during the Xbox E3 briefing, one of our employees made [B]an off the cuff and inappropriate comment[/B] while demoing ‘Killer Instinct’ with another employee. [B]This comment was offensive and we apologize[/B]," Phil Spencer, Corporate Vice President of Microsoft Studios told The Atlantic Wire. [/QUOTE] [URL]http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/06/microsoft-e3-rape-joke/66092/[/URL]
[QUOTE=Paper Monkey;41015919]I am not disputing that rape culture exists, but I find the idea that language must be carefully navigated to remove any potential source of offense to be impractical. There's the problem, firstly, that there is no objective standard for what is offensive: even on the level of individual people, a person's idea of whether something is offensive or not depends on the position that they are currently in. If you have some evidence that there are triggers that are objective and totally universal, I would appreciate some evidence of that.[/quote] Everyone sees tackling triggers as an end-all be-all response to preventing triggers. I don't think that's what this discussion is about at all. I think every social justice blogger knows that language is fluid and changes over time, and that pinning down one phrase can lead to another. Again, the language is a tool to get people to start thinking about rape culture, and why certain phrases and words are so weighty in our society. There's a reason why we think "cunt" and "nigger" and "retard" are inappropriate words; and if we never focused on their impact within society, we would have society using them regularly in a derogatory manner. And even though new words are popping up to insult these marginalized groups, the end result is that people are thinking critically about how they interact with the oppressed. Is it okay to reduce a woman to her genitalia? No. Are black people biologically inferior to white people? No. Are the mentally challenged people the sum of their illness? No. By targeting the language, people began to think differently about women, the mentally challenged, and people of color. It takes time, but in our own society we've seen how it's changed our perception with the oppressed. We're actively moving away from seeing women as sex objects; we see black men and women as human beings; we're starting to think of the mentally ill beyond their illness. And by targeting the language, I think it really allows people to start thinking about the attitudes and context of what they say. Likewise, I think this is where the "objective" and "universal" quality comes from triggers. When I was doing some research on trauma triggers, I came across a list of triggers from University of Alberta. Here's one of them: [quote] Words of abuse (ie. cursing, [b]labels[/b], [b]put-downs[/b], [b]specific words used[/b]). [/quote] This is where the main focus comes from. Certain words, phrases, and put-downs seem to be commonly found within rape culture, and that's where a lot of the targeting begins. Certain social labels and put-downs - like whore, bitch, cunt, slut - are used during rape in order to further dehumanize the victim. It's not that rape creates these triggers; it's the derogatory terms within society that often create triggering words in the first place. Again, I think this is where the language focus comes from. Understanding how these "words + a certain context = a triggering condition." In this case, it's "a humiliating power play + [i]common[/i] phrases used during rape = triggering." But, personally, you can see a universal trigger by the shock of its wake :v:. The more people upset, the more universal it is. [quote]But even then, I dispute the fact that worrying about language is necessary or even consequential. At the end of the day, this is an argument over what one person said in relation to the X-Box, and in and of itself looks wonderfully silly to people who aren't immersed in gamer culture. It also bothers me how damnably arbitrary these controversies arise. There are much better examples of sexism and rape culture in gaming i.e. things like Dragon's Crown. Yet we have CBS reporting *this* incident and we are debating over *this* subject.[/QUOTE] I don't think it looks "wonderfully silly" at all, when you even have non-feminists disputing that what he said was rather inappropriate. I mean, would you honestly make a joke saying "It'll be over soon?" and "You like that, don't you?" to a female acquaintance? Let alone a coworker that you barely even know. Those two lines have some baggage in our culture, and the context seems to naturally upset people - even if it isn't "directly referencing rape." There are much more important and trying issues going on in social justice... which is usually what radfems are focusing on, too :v:. Most feminists are involved on an activist level off the Internet, especially younger feminists in high school or college. And, while there are always more pressing issues than jokes, it's a very good sign that the media felt that this was a serious issue. It meant that the media felt like this was a newsworthy topic as a joke that seemed creepy. Granted, I'd rather have the media report on rape culture itself within gaming by examining the sort of crude language that people use against their opponents. I think stories like this are openings for some journalists to take that second look. Even if, somehow, society agreed there was "no controversy involved," other reporters are going to dig into Microsoft's relationship with harassment. One story begets another; usually most big stories snowball from small beginnings. [editline]13th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Raidyr;41019110]last post was going to be my last but I haven't seen this and it's 2 days late and rather relevant [URL]http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/06/microsoft-e3-rape-joke/66092/[/URL][/QUOTE] Also, it's pretty telling if the corporation feels the need to apologize. Trust me, Microsoft wouldn't apologize for "an off the cuff and inappropriate comment" that was "offensive" if it was just a fringe group upset.
wow Microsoft... just... wow
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