E3 Audience Offended By "Rape Joke" At Microsoft Xbox One Event
325 replies, posted
It appears Microsoft has finished making their tunnel to China.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;40998416]1. I don't particularly remember doing this in recent memory. True I used to be an idiot in regards to feminism and gender politics, and you can probably still find some of those posts, but I would call myself a feminist now; there is nothing wrong with feminism in and of itself. However, all movements should be open to criticism.
2. Of course people do, but a lot of feminist sites and communities seem to overstep this in favor of talking about stuff like the friendzone.[/QUOTE]
wow cool that's very interesting and relevant to this discussion
thanks for the heads up that there are, in fact, stupid people who claim to be feminist out there on the big open internet. much respect for you opening my eyes to this crazy notion. on this topic i'm sick of how white people never seem to talk about quantum mechanics, they talk about video games and shit all the time. i mean i guess some of them talk about quantum mechanics, but the fact remains, look at sites like facepunch.com and everyone is talking about video games when there are much more important things like quantum mechanics to be discussed. why is this??
This doesnt even seem that bad, why is everyone being a huge pussy.
[QUOTE=Kopimi;40998457]wow cool that's very interesting and relevant to this discussion
thanks for the heads up that there are, in fact, stupid people who claim to be feminist out there on the big open internet. much respect for you opening my eyes to this crazy notion. on this topic i'm sick of how white people never seem to talk about quantum mechanics, they talk about video games and shit all the time. i mean i guess some of them talk about quantum mechanics, but the fact remains, look at sites like facepunch.com and everyone is talking about video games when there are much more important things like quantum mechanics to be discussed. why is this??[/QUOTE]
because at least one person in the world actually understands games
[editline].[/editline]
[quote=Feynman?]If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Kopimi;40998457]thanks for the heads up that there are, in fact, stupid people who claim to be feminist out there on the big open internet. much respect for you opening my eyes to this crazy notion. on this topic i'm sick of how white people never seem to talk about quantum mechanics, they talk about video games and shit all the time. i mean i guess some of them talk about quantum mechanics, but the fact remains, look at sites like facepunch.com and everyone is talking about video games when there are much more important things like quantum mechanics to be discussed. why is this??[/QUOTE]
The problem with this argument is that it assumes that facepunch wasn't created to talk about stuff like that; you would be better off using /v/ and videogames.
I'm just saying that a lot of what feminist communities tend to discuss is feminism for privileged white women whose dealings with oppression is getting hit on by a creepy guy at a bar.
:3
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40998207]1. But just because I do not find this phrase offensive and meaning of rape really doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm in support of rape culture at all, it doesn't do anything to detract from any support I give to anti rape causes.
2. But that's so arbitrary it's meaningless. Some phrases can be interpreted by people because language is maleable and meant for that. it doesn't mean a phrase is that way to all people or was even meant that way. To really want to apply such an effect to speech where only phrases devoid of any sort of potential offensiveness is ridiculous. And that is what you're asking for. Potentially distressing even refers to the fact that it is only a potential and not even a sure thing. To bar people from being a specific way due to this seems horribly wrong to me. And surely not a way to stop rape culture. As for holding power over another, in a video game, being a better player is holding power over another. This is what his joke was about. To infer that he is trying to say he wants to rape her, or that his comment is somehow aimed in that direction is just that, it's you inferring.
3. Be upset about it then. But that doesn't make it right or reasonable in all cases. It doesn't mean every thing you think is part of it, is part of it. It's arbitrary. It really is.
4. So people were offended. And not offended. And partially offended. And understanding of the offense. And all different view points. Why does the most offended of the view points become right just for being the most offended?
You're telling me you're right and that you're right because you're right and that these things are wrong because they support rape culture, but you are, to me, entirely ignoring that there is a large chance to misconstrue what people mean easily when you start looking for it everywhere.[/QUOTE]
1. Not finding it offensive means you do not care about how the people who are victims of rape culture feel about something that affects them more than it will ever affect you.
2. The lines can actually be very clear, honestly, don't say things involving rape, either directly or creepy ass phrases like "it'll be over soon" etc. Maybe I am just weird for never wanting to say that to a woman, or to anyone? It seems ridiculously easy to self-censor. I say potentially distressing because only certain people would be distressed by it due to something that happened in their lives. The fact it does not offend or distress everyone does not detract from how that minority feels. Self censoring is actually one of the best ways to resist against rape culture. I know that it is a hard thing to conceptualize, but a lot of small actions can lead to larger change. I've said this a million times. A society without these comments or jokes would probably see less rape. And he does not need to be specifically referring to that meaning, the fact that a large amount of people took it that way was bad enough. He or Microsoft could simply apologize for bad wording, and that would be enough for me. I am more concerned, at this point, about the way people are defending Microsoft, than what Microsoft actually said, which was still seedy.
3. I will be, and it is definitely right or reasonable. Don't get me wrong, I will not sign a petition or boycott anyone for this. Being upset in my case does not mean I am seething with rage. I am merely accepting that what was said was problematic and should be addressed. I saw how problematic it could be when I saw my friends reaction to it. When I remember her, I remember how reasonable it really is.
4. It is not necessarily that the most offended group wins out, that was bad wording on my part (woah I am apologizing for bad wording, jesus christ). What I mean is that a significant amount of people were offended and had something to back it up: the phrase can lead to the interpretation involving rape. There are many cases in which the most offended people are wrong, like when MRA people are offended when women talk about rape as a women's issue because of the way it is normalized in society. Or when guys are offended when women say they cannot be feminists. To summarize the point I am trying to make here: it is not that the most offended group is necessarily the right one, but that it does not matter if the offended group is in the minority. Very little progress would be made if we always ignored the concerns of the minority.
You're right that these things are not set in stone. What I am arguing is that people are finding offense in this phrase by accident. It is not as if people look for offensive things in everything they watch, it is that they immediately felt it was wrong when they heard it. So yeah, most of Facepunch saw nothing wrong with what was said, but a large amount of women heard that and immediately felt it was wrong, and a very small number were even triggered by it. They did not try to find it. When I ask people about that argument, they say that they wish they did not see offensive things everywhere. They wish that they would have to look for offensive things. The truth is that the offensive stuff finds them, and hurts them. And that is worth talking about. The very idea that a seemingly harmless line from one group could hurt another group is a sign that something is amiss. There is a disconnect between all the micro-aggressions experienced by women every day, and the lives that those unaffected lead, never needing to register what is happening under the surface.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;40998504]The problem with this argument is that it assumes that facepunch wasn't created to talk about stuff like that; you would be better off using /v/ and videogames.
I'm just saying that a lot of what feminist communities tend to discuss is feminism for privileged white women whose dealings with oppression is getting hit on by a creepy guy at a bar.
:3[/QUOTE]
cool! that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion currently taking place but i'm glad you're mature enough to absorb political views from george carlin congratulations!!
[QUOTE=Kopimi;40998532]cool! that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion currently taking place but i'm glad you're mature enough to absorb political views from george carlin congratulations!![/QUOTE]
Actually I'm pretty sure this is the discussion taking place?
[QUOTE=Patriarch;40998504]The problem with this argument is that it assumes that facepunch wasn't created to talk about stuff like that; you would be better off using /v/ and videogames.
I'm just saying that a lot of what feminist communities tend to discuss is feminism for privileged white women whose dealings with oppression is getting hit on by a creepy guy at a bar.
:3[/QUOTE]
This is true, even if one completely accepts everything that video game feminist are saying, it mostly applies to women as a whole getting mistreated. One then has to look deeper and see how poor women and WoC are treated and how much worse it is for them.
That does not mean the woman getting hit on by a creepy guy in a bar is not allowed to complain about that kind of abuse, but it does mean that it has to be talked about, along with everything else.
As I discuss one small comment made by a guy on stage, I am still paying attention to all the shit women have to go through besides this one thing. It would be dumb to concentrate on only one issue at a time.
[QUOTE=person11;40998559]That does not mean the woman getting hit on by a creepy guy in a bar is not allowed to complain about that kind of abuse, but it does mean that it has to be talked about, along with everything else.[/QUOTE]
The problem is though that the creepy guy stuff is usually given a lot more space for discussion.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;40998578]The problem is though that the creepy guy stuff is usually given a lot more space for discussion.[/QUOTE]
its almost as if people discuss topics that are relevant to their lives.. this... no.. that can't be it...
[QUOTE=person11;40998505]1. Not finding it offensive means you do not care about how the people who are victims of rape culture feel about something that affects them more than it will ever affect you.
2. The lines can actually be very clear, honestly, don't say things involving rape, either directly or creepy ass phrases like "it'll be over soon" etc. Maybe I am just weird for never wanting to say that to a woman, or to anyone? It seems ridiculously easy to self-censor. I say potentially distressing because only certain people would be distressed by it due to something that happened in their lives. The fact it does not offend or distress everyone does not detract from how that minority feels. Self censoring is actually one of the best ways to resist against rape culture. I know that it is a hard thing to conceptualize, but a lot of small actions can lead to larger change. I've said this a million times. A society without these comments or jokes would probably see less rape. And he does not need to be specifically referring to that meaning, the fact that a large amount of people took it that way was bad enough. He or Microsoft could simply apologize for bad wording, and that would be enough for me. I am more concerned, at this point, about the way people are defending Microsoft, than what Microsoft actually said, which was still seedy.
3. I will be, and it is definitely right or reasonable. Don't get me wrong, I will not sign a petition or boycott anyone for this. Being upset in my case does not mean I am seething with rage. I am merely accepting that what was said was problematic and should be addressed. I saw how problematic it could be when I saw my friends reaction to it. When I remember her, I remember how reasonable it really is.
4. It is not necessarily that the most offended group wins out, that was bad wording on my part (woah I am apologizing for bad wording, jesus christ). What I mean is that a significant amount of people were offended and had something to back it up: the phrase can lead to the interpretation involving rape. There are many cases in which the most offended people are wrong, like when MRA people are offended when women talk about rape as a women's issue because of the way it is normalized in society. Or when guys are offended when women say they cannot be feminists. To summarize the point I am trying to make here: it is not that the most offended group is necessarily the right one, but that it does not matter if the offended group is in the minority. Very little progress would be made if we always ignored the concerns of the minority.
You're right that these things are not set in stone. What I am arguing is that people are finding offense in this phrase by accident. It is not as if people look for offensive things in everything they watch, it is that they immediately felt it was wrong when they heard it. So yeah, most of Facepunch saw nothing wrong with what was said, but a large amount of women heard that and immediately felt it was wrong, and a very small number were even triggered by it. They did not try to find it. When I ask people about that argument, they say that they wish they did not see offensive things everywhere. They wish that they would have to look for offensive things. The truth is that the offensive stuff finds them, and hurts them. And that is worth talking about. The very idea that a seemingly harmless line from one group could hurt another group is a sign that something is amiss. There is a disconnect between all the micro-aggressions experienced by women every day, and the lives that those unaffected lead, never needing to register what is happening under the surface.[/QUOTE]
I'm not suggesting ignoring the minority or acting like they aren't hurt. I'm saying that if we censor, and ask for everyone to self censor, anything that can be construed to be rapey we're going to be censoring a lot of people needlessly for comments that a few people find offensive. I know what you're saying and I understand it. I'm not 'uncaring' because I don't find all the comments offensive.
"it'll be over soon" has more than just rapey meanings and to imply and think it's solely about that is kind of bizarre. Some people see that.
I've said to that to my niece as I held her while she was getting a shot at the doctor. Wow, rapey?
I just think context is more important than what people find offensive. The context is more important than the words being said. Be mad at that, not everyone who ever says anything that you think can construe that.
patriarch why are you crying about feminism when the israeli government is destroying palestinian homes as we speak?
[QUOTE=Kopimi;40998597]its almost as if people discuss topics that are relevant to their lives.. this... no.. that can't be it...[/QUOTE]
It's a good thing I guess that white, privileged women hold a monopoly on gender politics and discussion, so that we can hear was is relevant to [I]them[/I], the real feminist issues!
[QUOTE=Patriarch;40998622]It's a good thing I guess that white, privileged women hold a monopoly on gender politics and discussion, so that we can here was is relevant to [I]them[/I], the real feminist issues![/QUOTE]
just stop talking already
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;40998218]so anyone who says a thing that's potentially offensive is "mentally unstable"?
these conversations always get so ironic[/QUOTE]
It is not a secret that having horrible things done to you can ruin many thing for you. Many rape survivors are triggered by the sight of male genitalia, and many are triggered by things that seem harmless, like comments that allude to rape.
I am not saying that ONLY those people should find it offensive, but that everyone should find it offensive for the sake of people who are unable to not care. I could easily get up and leave this discussion and never think about the harm or rape jokes again, because I am not a victim of them. But I know that people are affected by this shit, so I get offended.
But I would not call it mental instability. It has a negative connotation. Sounds like they are crazy, when they are in fact normal aside from the fact that some things trigger them.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;40998622]It's a good thing I guess that white, privileged women hold a monopoly on gender politics and discussion, [B]so that we can here was is relevant to [I]them[/I][/B], the real feminist issues![/QUOTE]
im not even gonna pretend to understand this random assortment of words you've thrown together but just so you know you sound ridiculous right now
[QUOTE=Kopimi;40998649]im not even gonna pretend to understand this random assortment of words you've thrown together but just so you know you sound ridiculous right now[/QUOTE]
I'm a moron; it was supposed to be "so that we can hear what is relevant to them".
[QUOTE=person11;40998505]1. Not finding it offensive means you do not care about how the people who are victims of rape culture feel about something that affects them more than it will ever affect you. [/QUOTE]
Sorry, I care for rape-victims, but we can't go around bobblewrap words all the time. It doesn't mean we don't care about the victims, and I wouldn't ever say anything that could directly be taken the wrong way, but something like this isn't in that box.
[QUOTE=Patriarch;40998578]The problem is though that the creepy guy stuff is usually given a lot more space for discussion.[/QUOTE]
It is true that everything needs to be discussed and that everything needs to be given time in the spotlight. With your concentrating on WoC issues, I suggest you look at Radical Feminism, since there is more emphasis on race in their theories.
I feel like your talking about this distracts from this specific discussion though. Maybe we can make a Feminism thread in the Debate forum. God knows I can't stop talking about this.
[QUOTE=person11;40998505]1. Not finding it offensive means you do not care about how the people who are victims of rape culture feel about something that affects them more than it will ever affect you. [/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. There's a huge logical leap from "I don't think this is a rape joke" to "I don't care about rape victims at all". If it was actually a rape joke you'd have a point, but it obviously wasn't intended as one (Microsoft may be doing awful at PR, but they're not that stupid).
[QUOTE=person11;40998505]2. The lines can actually be very clear, honestly, don't say things involving rape, either directly or creepy ass phrases like "it'll be over soon" etc. Maybe I am just weird for never wanting to say that to a woman, or to anyone? It seems ridiculously easy to self-censor. I say potentially distressing because only certain people would be distressed by it due to something that happened in their lives. The fact it does not offend or distress everyone does not detract from how that minority feels. Self censoring is actually one of the best ways to resist against rape culture. I know that it is a hard thing to conceptualize, but a lot of small actions can lead to larger change. I've said this a million times. A society without these comments or jokes would probably see less rape. And he does not need to be specifically referring to that meaning, the fact that a large amount of people took it that way was bad enough. He or Microsoft could simply apologize for bad wording, and that would be enough for me. I am more concerned, at this point, about the way people are defending Microsoft, than what Microsoft actually said, which was still seedy.[/QUOTE]
Again, we've been over this. "Just let it happen, it'll be over soon" not only isn't a rape-specific phrase, but it makes perfect sense as being relevant in context without a relation to rape.
[QUOTE=person11;40998679]I feel like your talking about this distracts from this specific discussion though. Maybe we can make a Feminism thread in the Debate forum. God knows I can't stop talking about this.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;40998678]Sorry, I care for rape-victims, but we can't go around bobblewrap words all the time. It doesn't mean we don't care about the victims, and I wouldn't ever say anything that could directly be taken the wrong way, but something like this isn't in that box.[/QUOTE]
We can try our best. I make a mistake once in a while, but I still do my best not to say certain things. It is not hard to do at all. When you try a little bit, most of the potentially offensive stuff you may otherwise say is never said.
The only people who would truly need to bubblewrap their words or change how they talk are the people who constantly make rape jokes or make misogynistic comments, like MRA people or /r/Atheism.
[QUOTE=person11;40998638]It is not a secret that having horrible things done to you can ruin many thing for you. Many rape survivors are triggered by the sight of male genitalia, and many are triggered by things that seem harmless, like comments that allude to rape.
I am not saying that ONLY those people should find it offensive, but that everyone should find it offensive for the sake of people who are unable to not care. I could easily get up and leave this discussion and never think about the harm or rape jokes again, because I am not a victim of them. But I know that people are affected by this shit, so I get offended.
But I would not call it mental instability. It has a negative connotation. Sounds like they are crazy, when they are in fact normal aside from the fact that some things trigger them.[/QUOTE]
you said people who say things that are offensive or can be found offensive are mentally unstable, those are your words
I feel bad for the people who are triggered by things that are offensive. I don't agree the whole world should self censor everything to accommodate those people. Showing compassion to those people is not self censoring everything that we can say that may offend anyone.
if every comment that's made that SOMEONE can find rapey is wrong, then that's a lot of language that is being censored and lost because of someones offense at something that may or may not be there. You claiming their offense alone is enough for everyone to self censor seems ridiculous because of how arbitrary that line is.
I understand exactly what you mean. I just think what you want is wrong. I think there's a lot more than can be done to help move us out of our current rape culture than trying to make everyone who says anything that might be possibly a phrase that someone potentially finds questionably offensive is the way to do it.
[QUOTE=person11;40998717]We can try our best. I make a mistake once in a while, but I still do my best not to say certain things. It is not hard to do at all. When you try a little bit, most of the potentially offensive stuff you may otherwise say is never said.
The only people who would truly need to bubblewrap their words or change how they talk are the people who constantly make rape jokes or make misogynistic comments, like MRA people or /r/Atheism.[/QUOTE]
tbh i think its unnecessary to ask people to be that careful that they can't say something like "itll be over soon" just to prevent people from jumping to conclusions and assuming its an obscure rape joke. when you have a situation like this where the joke makes 100% sense in the context of a fighting game (you suck at this game, i'm about to beat you so don't even bother trying) i think the issue is people who don't stop for a second and think about what he actually meant rather than hopping on twitter and lambasting him for saying something that could be INTERPRETED as a rape joke
[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;40998697]I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. There's a huge logical leap from "I don't think this is a rape joke" to "I don't care about rape victims at all". If it was actually a rape joke you'd have a point, but it obviously wasn't intended as one (Microsoft may be doing awful at PR, but they're not that stupid).
Again, we've been over this. "Just let it happen, it'll be over soon" not only isn't a rape-specific phrase, but it makes perfect sense as being relevant in context without a relation to rape.[/QUOTE]
It is a bit of a leap, yes. I am not saying that not being offended is akin to being a rapist or an MRA guy or anything like that, but that being aware of rape culture, of triggers, and basic sociology should all lend to easily understanding that the phrase uttered was problematic.
It is true that it does not always mean what the people who are complaining says it means, but the fact it can mean that, and does mean that to a good amount of people, is enough to call the use of the phrase into question. When language is so infinite, why do we even need to say that one specific combination of words? There are so many other jokes or things to say when you are kicking someone's ass in a video game.
I suppose you can argue that, for example, the term "kicking someones ass" could be offensive to someone who is traumatized by the use of that phrase, etc, and that we could not possibly police ourselves out of avoiding any potentially offensive term or phrase. I would have to concede, again, that self censorship is impossible, but still something worth trying.
How the fuck was that even close to a rape joke though ?
I've heard dentists say "just relax it'll be over soon", seriously.
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;40996846]I am a Sony fanboy, and even I say that it was not rape joke. I mean, seriously? What's next, I am not allowed to look at women simply because it could be interpreted as making plans about raping her? And unclothing her in my mind?
What about little kids? Am I a pedophile for showing a little smile at little babies?[/QUOTE]
gamers are the most immature manchildren in the world
We all agree on the basics at least. Before, I'd have to fight tooth and nail just to justify saying "rape culture".
[QUOTE=person11;40998775]It is a bit of a leap, yes. I am not saying that not being offended is akin to being a rapist or an MRA guy or anything like that, but that being aware of rape culture, of triggers, and basic sociology should all lend to easily understanding that the phrase uttered was problematic.
It is true that it does not always mean what the people who are complaining says it means, but the fact it can mean that, and does mean that to a good amount of people, is enough to call the use of the phrase into question. When language is so infinite, why do we even need to say that one specific combination of words? There are so many other jokes or things to say when you are kicking someone's ass in a video game.
I suppose you can argue that, for example, the term "kicking someones ass" could be offensive to someone who is traumatized by the use of that phrase, etc, and that we could not possibly police ourselves out of avoiding any potentially offensive term or phrase. I would have to concede, again, that self censorship is impossible, but still something worth trying.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you get it.
you start censoring one set of words to save those people and a new set will pop up, causing you to censor more, and more and more as this goes on infinitely. the idea that certain phrases are wrong is wrong. the context matters so much more.
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