E3 Audience Offended By "Rape Joke" At Microsoft Xbox One Event
325 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Reimu;41002318]
Going beyond the joke, it seems to be bringing out gaming's completely backwards relationship with misogyny.[/QUOTE]
Yeah if I was in the industry I'd be doubly cautions about what I said in public.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41002335]Yeah if I was in the industry I'd be doubly cautions about what I said in public.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. That was the #1 complaint by major developers on twitter, too - Microsoft wasn't thinking critically about what they were doing.
I think Blow even said that humiliating an inexperienced, female community manager was misogynistic in its own right, because it reinforced the stereotype that "women are bad at video games."
[QUOTE=Reimu;41002170]She's a fucking rape victim. She was raped multiple times. Why do you think she cares so much about rape culture? Because rape culture led to her being raped.[/QUOTE]
Being a rape victim doesn't make her immune from criticism.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41002170]
Yeah because we respect murder victims and actively get upset when someone threatens another person with murder.
[/QUOTE]
With threatening murder nobody cares if you say it in jest, but people care if you mean it seriously.
You can't even get away with jokingly threatening rape with a lot of people, let alone seriously meaning it.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41002170]
Likewise, we don't blame the victim when he/she's murdered. "Oh, your brother was shot? Hmm, he shouldn't have been wearing that new suit. Yeah, that's why he got shot. Not because the shooter is a fucking psycho."[/QUOTE]
But people do say things like that. "He shouldn't have gone to that neighbourhood wearing all that expensive jewellery", "He shouldn't have got involved in a gang"
You've got a seriously warped view if you think first world society is in any way okay with rape.
This is a stupid non-issue controversy over nothing. People need to stop being so sensitive and whining about shit at the drop of a hat.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41002317]It's offensiveness isn't debateable.[/QUOTE]
how not
i didn't realize you had an objective line on what was truly offensive and what wasn't
because i really don't think you do.
[editline]11th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Reimu;41002318]I understand what you mean. I just think that the nitty gritty of "defining" the joke is pointless when it seems to be fueling gaming rape culture. We have posters right on here saying "stop being oversensitive about rape jokes," twitter users making misogynistic jokes about the event, developers complaining that it's only solidifying gender stereotypes within gaming, etc.
Going beyond the joke, it seems to be bringing out gaming's completely backwards relationship with misogyny.
Wrecked is extremely abstract and isn't even an indirect reference to rape, though. It's not like "I'm gonna wreck you" is considered an extremely stereotypical phrase within rape. In fact, it's typically used ironically and comically, so it has a light-hearted notion to it. Whereas rape references are often dead serious.
It's still part of a power dynamic, true, but wrecked is abstract enough to be gender-neutral. It's probably not going to trigger a rape victim, whereas something along the lines of "It will be over soon" is much more likely to be triggering.
Granted, inflection and context matters of course, but it just doesn't have the cultural background that the producer's line does.
[editline]12th June 2013[/editline]
Offensiveness is in the eye of the offended, not the observer :v:[/QUOTE]
Wrecked being bad or not is up for interpretation. Like any other phrase or wording or sentences used. It's up for interpretation. Wrecked may be abstract as of now, but that could change when someone gets offended by it.
I just don't see how people are okay with basically requiring people self censor themselves to such a ridiculous degree without even understanding how language grows and changes to accommodate the loss of words like that. I'd much rather we focus on dealing with the context and the intent than worry about individual words. If "it will all be over soon" is triggering for some people, how can't "you're getting wrecked right now" be to someone else? It all depends on who was raped and what they heard or felt or imagine and what triggers them. this is my point. You're just going to start clear cutting language down because, hey, someone heard that while they were raped and therefore those words can never be used again.
[QUOTE=Frozen_Fish;41002363]Being a rape victim doesn't make her immune from criticism.[/quote]
There's a difference between intellectual criticism, and complaining someone is "looking to be offended."
"Looking to be offended" is pretty much a catchphrase for "I think this person is getting upset over something that doesn't really matter/exist," which is bullshit. Plus, there's not much room for criticism about rape culture's existence when it's considered a staple of modern sociology.
[quote]With threatening murder nobody cares if you say it in jest, but people care if you mean it seriously.
You can't even get away with jokingly threatening rape with a lot of people, let alone seriously meaning it.[/quote]
Because as a society we pretty much respect and understand the gravity of murder's consequences on a victim. He/She dies. If someone is killed, or nearly killed, we don't walk up to the victim/family and say, "Oh, it's your fault. If you never did x, you wouldn't have been killed."
No, we place responsibility directly on the killer. We sympathize with the victim and respect that a wrong was done to them. Yes, we might consider that steps could've been taken - but we don't blame the victim for not taking those measures, because murder is so random.
Where as rape is a serious social issue affecting women (and men) that we don't particularly understand. Rape victims don't even know how to explain how traumatic rape is - I remember one male victim called it psychological death. And, likewise, we don't respect rape victims. Rape can happen very easily - rapists purposefully target certain victims, based on extremely mundane shit like hair length and clothing size. Yet, when a victim is raped, they're much more likely to be blamed for their assault than a murder victim. Usually because they "were too slutty," "dressed in a way that was asking for it," "deserved it," etc.
Therefore, it creates a culture where rape survivors are considered responsible for the rapist's actions, and the rapist is absolved from responsibility. Granted, it's not like every rape victim lacks a support network. Certainly, a lot of rape victims are treated with respect. But, many aren't, and it's one of the reasons why rape often leads to self-harm, eating disorders, or even suicides - no one is there for the victim; they're simply held responsible for something they had no control.
[quote]But people do say things like that. "He shouldn't have gone to that neighbourhood wearing all that expensive jewellery", "He shouldn't have got involved in a gang"[/quote]
Yes, but they still sympathize with him/her and respect that they were wronged. They don't see the murder/mugging as their responsibility. Society holds the criminal accountable. They blame the perpetrator, not the victim.
When a gang member dies, for instance, their fellow gangsters don't blame the victim for their death. They mourn him/her, and, in some cases, seek revenge.
[quote]You've got a seriously warped view if you think first world society is in any way okay with rape.[/QUOTE]
[quote]Rape culture is a concept which links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society,[1] and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.[2]
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison systems where prison rape is common and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures[/quote]
It's an academic and sociological perspective. Radical feminist theory seems to suggest that it's prevalent within society, and sociological research seems to support that notion.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41002349]Yeah. That was the #1 complaint by major developers on twitter, too - Microsoft wasn't thinking critically about what they were doing.
I think Blow even said that humiliating an inexperienced, female community manager was misogynistic in its own right, because it reinforced the stereotype that "women are bad at video games."[/QUOTE]
But she really was just bad at videogames compared to the guy she was up against. Would you rather he just let her win? Or not have her on stage entirely? I'm pretty sure you'd call both those alternatives misogynistic as well. I mean you're seriously complaining because REALITY made a woman look worse at something then a man. Denialism at it's finest.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41002389]I just don't see how people are okay with basically requiring people self censor themselves to such a ridiculous degree without even understanding how language grows and changes to accommodate the loss of words like that. I'd much rather we focus on dealing with the context and the intent than worry about individual words. If "it will all be over soon" is triggering for some people, how can't "you're getting wrecked right now" be to someone else? It all depends on who was raped and what they heard or felt or imagine and what triggers them. this is my point. You're just going to start clear cutting language down because, hey, someone heard that while they were raped and therefore those words can never be used again.[/QUOTE]
I disagree to an extent, but trivializing language definitely is not a positive direction.
"Check your privilege" and the linguistic side of social justice is hugely overblown and often avoids the real, activist issues. So I agree that this sort of joke is only part of a much larger struggle for equality.
[editline]12th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Frozen_Fish;41002523]But she really was just bad at videogames compared to the guy she was up against. Would you rather he just let her win? Or not have her on stage entirely? I'm pretty sure you'd call both those alternatives misogynistic as well. I mean you're seriously complaining because REALITY made a woman look worse at something then a man. Denialism at it's finest.[/QUOTE]
Microsoft shouldn't have put her up there to begin with, because she's a community manager who doesn't know Killer Instinct.
Put someone up there who actually knows the game. Male or female. It looks bad when you have one of your employees pummel another, and then have him make "friendly banter" when she's mercilessly losing.
Also she isn't "bad at videogames." She just doesn't know that particular game, where as the producer has spent months developing it.
[img]http://filesmelt.com/dl/lol201.jpg[/img]
"you like it" is a thing ive heard guys say to girls when beating them at video games and things when theyre trying to flirt with them and pick them up. that and "itll be over soon" are also really douchey things to say in general.
it was a forced, awkward act played by two people who dont really seem like they know eachother much on a stage in front of a bunch of people as they pretended to play video games.
i didnt take it as a rape joke when i heard it, just a socially retarded thing to say and a really shitty stage act.
[QUOTE=Reimu;41002542]I disagree to an extent, but trivializing language definitely is not a positive direction.
"Check your privilege" and the linguistic side of social justice is hugely overblown and often avoids the real, activist issues. So I agree that this sort of joke is only part of a much larger struggle for equality.[/QUOTE]
but what a lot of this argument has been about is how people should self censor themselves to not offend people, full well with the knowledge that what offends people is unique to each person. But for some reason no one realizes or seems to care that this hasn't been about context and has really only been about the words which are meaningless.
Equality in this situation is what? He says a gender neutral phrase as trash talk? And someone would still find a fault with it because at some level everything can be called offensive.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41002317]It's offensiveness isn't debateable.[/QUOTE]
welp thats it.
We've been told.
[QUOTE=Carnage2323;41002566][IMG]http://filesmelt.com/dl/lol201.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
The fact that this is only pointed out as a (very poor) attempt to create an equivalent to the initial offensive statement shows how meaningless it actually is. Nobody took her statement seriously as a joke about slavery.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;41002576]"you like it" is a thing ive heard guys say to girls when beating them at video games and things when theyre trying to flirt with them and pick them up. that and "itll be over soon" are also really douchey things to say in general.
it was a forced, awkward act played by two people who dont really seem like they know eachother much on a stage in front of a bunch of people as they pretended to play video games.
i didnt take it as a rape joke when i heard it, just a socially retarded thing to say and a really shitty stage act.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it was a rape joke but other people do and understanding that is called empathy. Not to cause cross-thread drama but considering I see you in every Sarkeesian thread arguing against her Kickstarter and the people who support it, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you maybe don't have the largest capacity for empathy towards people of the female persuasion who sees a certain phrase offensive.
[editline]12th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;41002652]welp thats it.
We've been told.[/QUOTE]
If you want to contend my point then feel free. Rating it dumb and being sarcastic doesn't help the conversation.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41002655]The fact that this is only pointed out as a (very poor) attempt to create an equivalent to the initial offensive statement shows how meaningless it actually is. Nobody took her statement seriously as a joke about slavery.
I don't think it was a rape joke but other people do and understanding that is called empathy. Not to cause cross-thread drama but considering I see you in every Sarkeesian thread arguing against her Kickstarter and the people who support it, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you maybe don't have the largest capacity for empathy towards people of the female persuasion who sees a certain phrase offensive.
[editline]12th June 2013[/editline]
If you want to contend my point then feel free. Rating it dumb and being sarcastic doesn't help the conversation.[/QUOTE]
you said it wasn't debatable. that is "being told".
You don't really care to debate or argue, you made that clear.
it isn't a conversation. it's one sided, you talk, we're supposed to listen.
that's what saying "it isn't debatable" tells me, and most people
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41002655]The fact that this is only pointed out as a (very poor) attempt to create an equivalent to the initial offensive statement shows how meaningless it actually is. Nobody took her statement seriously as a joke about slavery.
[/QUOTE]
It's entirely appropiate when you think about it. Many users found the controversy absurd since people took the phrases out of context. It's understandable to perceive it as rape if you were to get it from a 30 second video or 2 lines of text, but if you were to initially watch it entirely, it would be viewed as cheesy trashtalk.
No doubt that it was definitely written in the script, but it's still unconfirmed whether the script were intended for those specific genders.
That's as much of a reference to rape as "fight stick" is to a penis. I don't know how the fuck people can react so harshly to meaningless nonsense like this.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41002808]you said it wasn't debatable. that is "being told".
You don't really care to debate or argue, you made that clear.
it isn't a conversation. it's one sided, you talk, we're supposed to listen.
that's what saying "it isn't debatable" tells me, and most people[/QUOTE]
It's kind of a fact. You can't debate that water is wet, and because you don't find something offensive doesn't make it not offensive. Only an individual can determine what is and isn't offensive to themselves.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41002870]It's kind of a fact. You can't debate that water is wet, and because you don't find something offensive doesn't make it not offensive. Only an individual can determine what is and isn't offensive to themselves.[/QUOTE]
which is entirely why it's debatable?
it's subjective sure so no one's really going to come to a right or wrong on it, but it's entirely debatable.
christ it seems like some feminists were just looking to find something to pin onto microsoft
its not even a fucking rape joke and anyone who thinks it is is just being plain oversensitive
i do have to admit that the second part of the joke was weird
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;41002878]which is entirely why it's debatable?
it's subjective sure so no one's really going to come to a right or wrong on it, but it's entirely debatable.[/QUOTE]
No, you misunderstand.
"I think x is offensive" is subjective. I don't think said phrase was offensive
"x is offensive" is a statement of fact from personal experiences that something other people take offense to (because of their personal experiences) is not actually offensive.
You can't debate how offensive something is because there is no consensus to be reached. You can't make something that somebody finds offensive unoffensive by telling them that you aren't offended by it. I'm sure there are gay people out there that use the word "faggot" as a catch-all personal insult but that doesn't mean people who are offended by it aren't, and you can't say "it will all be over soon" is not a rape reference (I erring towards no, atleast not an intentional one) to make women (some who may have been victimized themselves) suddenly feel unoffended.
[editline]12th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=dr gero;41002910]christ it seems like some feminists were just looking to find something to pin onto microsoft
its not even a fucking rape joke and anyone who thinks it is is just being plain oversensitive
i do have to admit that the second part of the joke was weird[/QUOTE]
I watch E3 every year, it's like a ritual to me, and I've never seen a company called out for the things they say being misconstrued as offensive references about rape.
This conspiracy that straw feminists are just sitting in front of their television or computer just waiting to jot down out-of-context quotes from video game companies is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41002933]No, you misunderstand.
"I think x is offensive" is subjective. I don't think said phrase was offensive
"x is offensive" is a statement of fact from personal experiences that something other people take offense to (because of their personal experiences) is not actually offensive.
You can't debate how offensive something is because there is no consensus to be reached. You can't make something that somebody finds offensive unoffensive by telling them that you aren't offended by it. I'm sure there are gay people out there that use the word "faggot" as a catch-all personal insult but that doesn't mean people who are offended by it aren't, and you can't say "it will all be over soon" is not a rape reference (I erring towards no, atleast not an intentional one) to make women (some who may have been victimized themselves) suddenly feel unoffended.
[/QUOTE]
yes you fucking can.
"x if offensive to ME" would not be up for debate. "x is offensive" period would be highly debatable. You don't get to blanket label something as offensive to everyone just because you personally have a problem with it.
You continue to misunderstand. If I think something is offensive, me saying that I think it is offensive doesn't make it offensive to everyone else, and the fact that you apparently got that out of my post is more an issue with your lack of reading comprehension than anything I said.
What it means is that I think it's offensive. You can call me thin skinned, that's not going to make it not offensive. What I think is or isn't offensive isn't up for debate, so saying that something is objectively not offensive prescribes a standard that you aren't the arbiter of.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41003177]You continue to misunderstand. If I think something is offensive, me saying that I think it is offensive doesn't make it offensive to everyone else, and the fact that you apparently got that out of my post is more an issue with your lack of reading comprehension than anything I said.
What it means is that I think it's offensive. You can call me thin skinned, that's not going to make it not offensive. What I think is or isn't offensive isn't up for debate, so saying that something is objectively not offensive prescribes a standard that you aren't the arbiter of.[/QUOTE]
If you think it's offensive, I'm sorry. Microsoft does a lot of shit but they are not trying to trigger rape victims. There are seven billion people on this planet and chances are there are some phrases particular to every individual that can be offensive. We can't just censor every single thing that offends someone. Clear, obvious rape jokes are a definite no-no. This instance was anything but that.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41003177]You continue to misunderstand. If I think something is offensive, me saying that I think it is offensive doesn't make it offensive to everyone else, and the fact that you apparently got that out of my post is more an issue with your lack of reading comprehension than anything I said.
What it means is that I think it's offensive. You can call me thin skinned, that's not going to make it not offensive. What I think is or isn't offensive isn't up for debate, so saying that something is objectively not offensive prescribes a standard that you aren't the arbiter of.[/QUOTE]
It's not me with the lack of reading comprehension.
If you made a statement saying "<x> is offensive" and someone called you out on it, you don't then get to retreat behind a poor excuse like "oh i mean its offensive to me and thats not up for debate". If that was what you were intending to say, you should've said "<x> is offensive to [B]me[/B]" and yes, this is semantics, but the pronoun is important if you want to effectively communicate. You can't just fucking expect people to know what you mean if you don't communicate it clearly.
By saying "<x> is offensive" you are trying to state that is objectively offensive and that everyone must be offended by it. And by saying that, it IS up for debate.
[QUOTE=Wizards Court;40996106]you don't think the line "wow, you like those" was pretty inappropriate and awkward?
especially when combined with the previous "it'll be over soon"?[/QUOTE]
The video freezes for me, but I can hear the same word being used over and over again.
I think he was referring to whatever attack she used.
[QUOTE=NoShogun;41003220]If you think it's offensive, I'm sorry. Microsoft does a lot of shit but they are not trying to trigger rape victims. There are seven billion people on this planet and chances are there are some phrases particular to every individual that can be offensive. We can't just censor every single thing that offends someone. Clear, obvious rape jokes are a definite no-no. This instance was anything but that.[/QUOTE]
Right, the balls in Microsofts court now. What society deems as offensive is largely a social construct so companies who rely on customer patronage try to avoid doing or saying things deemed as offensive by a certain percentage of said customer base. If someone said they were offended by the Xbone because the case has too much black on it and felt like this was a racial statement, that person might find that offensive, but then it's up to Microsoft to decide what to do with that information. Do they continue selling a console that one dude finds offensive because of it's case color, or do they ignore it because it doesn't really matter?
I don't think censoring needs to happen, and I think this idea that people are going to go around and stop every single possibly-offensive statement from being read is ridiculous. Hopefully the person who wrote this just figures "oh, some people found this offensive, the next time I write up awkward trashtalk for a press conference exhibition I'll try to pay more attention to these kinds of things, especially since the place of females in video games is under a lot of scrutiny these days".
Personally I don't give a shit. It didn't seem offensive or particularly much of a reference to rape at all for me. But I can see how certain people could see it as that and I probably would have gone in a different direction, thats all.
[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;41003224]It's not me with the lack of reading comprehension.
If you made a statement saying "<x> is offensive" and someone called you out on it, you don't then get to retreat behind a poor excuse like "oh i mean its offensive to me and thats not up for debate".[/QUOTE]
Considering I A) never said anything was offensive and B) Never retreated from this supposed position to say it was offensive to me, I disagree and think this is very much about your lack of reading ability.
[QUOTE]If that was what you were intending to say, you should've said "<x> is offensive to [B]me[/B]" and yes, this is semantics, but the pronoun is important if you want to effectively communicate. You can't just fucking expect people to know what you mean if you don't communicate it clearly.
By saying "<x> is offensive" you are trying to state that is objectively offensive and that everyone must be offended by it. And by saying that, it IS up for debate.[/QUOTE]
But I clearly said in my opening post that whether something is offensive or not isn't objective
[QUOTE=Raidyr;41001739]
It isn't any one person's place to consider something offensive or not.[/QUOTE]
Nobody can say that x is offensive and automatically make it offensive. But this sword cuts both ways and just because you don't find something offensive doesn't mean you can go up to people that do and say "That's not offensive you just have thin skin".
This world is just completely inhabited by overly sensitive, bleeding heart suburban moms.
[QUOTE=Savyetski79;41003348]This world is just completely inhabited by overly sensitive, bleeding heart suburban moms.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for being a perfect example of what I am trying to illustrate. I'm sure the people who found this to be offensive will immediately whitewash their emotional state of being because someone on the internet thinks they are overly sensitive.
[editline]12th June 2013[/editline]
Also nothing says E3 demographic quite like "suburban mom".
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;40995973][IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/wl3vrb.png[/IMG]
good ol' patricia hernandez here to save the day[/QUOTE]
Can someone shoop boobies on her?
[highlight](User was too awesome for this post ("I'M TOO AWESOME" - Benos28))[/highlight]
I gotta say I'm really surprised that all of this didn't really stop the Xbox One preorders from selling out on Amazon, though.
Although honestly I really didn't interpret the trash talk as rape joke, sounded like the standard trash talk you hear in Xbox Live, and the conference WAS about the Xbox experience, right?
At least it seemed fitting despite being completely awkward and forced.
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