• U.S. Military Seeking Deployment in as many as 35 African Countries in 2013
    189 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Earthen;39116200]I'm serving in the military, but whatever. I'm just saying that I don't want them to being firing missiles at the militants. I want them to send soldiers in to minimize the risk of civilian casualties as much as possible.[/QUOTE] All my soldier buddies have told me that it's honestly hell to engage people in combat over there. You have to get two positive ID's minimum to engage. No other military cares, they just shoot anything that looks slightly suspicious. Plus the real problem is the ANA forces. My buddy told me about the time they captured eleven Taliban guys and gave them to the ANA to guard and process. It took them an hour to come back to get the Taliban guys to transport them to somewhere else, only three were still alive because the ANA brutally beat the captured guys to death. The ANA are fucking brutal and terrible anyway though, he also told me about the time they caught a whole group of ANA guys planting IED's along patrol routs and a few main roads that a lot of local civilians used and then lied about doing it like they thought my buddy's platoon was really that stupid or something.
[QUOTE=draugur;39123859]All my soldier buddies have told me that it's honestly hell to engage people in combat over there. You have to get two positive ID's minimum to engage. No other military cares, they just shoot anything that looks slightly suspicious. Plus the real problem is the ANA forces. My buddy told me about the time they captured eleven Taliban guys and gave them to the ANA to guard and process. It took them an hour to come back to get the Taliban guys to transport them to somewhere else, only three were still alive because the ANA brutally beat the captured guys to death. The ANA are fucking brutal and terrible anyway though, he also told me about the time they caught a whole group of ANA guys planting IED's along patrol routs and a few main roads that a lot of local civilians used and then lied about doing it like they thought my buddy's platoon was really that stupid or something.[/QUOTE] I have heard this from several sources. Most of which have had this hell as they are being fired on.
[QUOTE=scout1;39122089]But it's okay if an aircraft bombs it, so long as it's not a drone? So tell us, Earthen. What can be better done to reduce civilian casualties? No drones, specifically, but machine guns only (thus precluding all other listed armaments)? Do we keep armor? Do we keep MLRS and conventional artillery? They cause civilian casualties too.[/QUOTE] I meant media attention. It's a lot harder for the us military to start firing in crowded areas than it is to drop a smart bomb and then go "whoops some kids died, sorry". I don't understand how you can actually be okay with civilian casualties.
Is there actually any one here supporting American soldiers in Africa?
I love how there are certain members on Facepunch that fly the banner of "no civilian casualties", and then turn around when more accurate, military-grade weapons are developed, bleating about how we're "getting better about killing each-other". It's irony at it's finest.
[QUOTE=Black;39127777]Is there actually any one here supporting American soldiers in Africa?[/QUOTE] Honestly, yes. The local militaries benefit from the training and support we give them, and in turn they help us root out pockets of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups that are in their country.
[QUOTE=Earthen;39127668]I meant media attention. It's a lot harder for the us military to start firing in crowded areas than it is to drop a smart bomb and then go "whoops some kids died, sorry". I don't understand how you can actually be okay with civilian casualties.[/QUOTE] So you still don't like civilian casualties. Period. Whatsoever. Well that means that you want us to remove armor, aircraft, artillery, and in fact all weapons from our nation's military. Mistakes happen. Civilians die. Ergo we're evil.
[QUOTE=laserguided;39074395]Key word here is seeking. How many of those unnamed African countries are going to want US troops on their soil? A lot of African countries are corrupt shitholes and giving the US the ability to perform regime change isn't going to sit well in my opinion.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't call African countries corrupt shitholes, that just shows your lack of education on the subject. Lets use Zambia for instance Before a new president could be sworn in who would bring reform, massive increases to health and education spending etc... The empire had to kick Zambia while it was down. Zambia's main sources of income were from massive state owned mines, the former government also has massive debts to the " World Bank(US) " So what does the empire do? The London Metals exchange ( Where the worldwide metals prices are "FIXED" ) dropped the price on a few valuable Zambian resources forcing Zambia to default on its loan, The World Bank in turn says " privatize " your mines and do a few other things we like and we will write off some of your debt ( in other words we will give you another loan ). Don't be so quick to blame Africa for the US and Britain's dirty deeds. The end game of the 35 countries with US troops is to install dictators, who will default on Chinese loans. The Chinese are destroying the credibility of the United States in Africa with GOOD WILL and GOOD ECONOMICS not DEBT TRADE
[QUOTE=scout1;39130251]So you still don't like civilian casualties. Period. Whatsoever. Well that means that you want us to remove armor, aircraft, artillery, and in fact all weapons from our nation's military. Mistakes happen. Civilians die. Ergo we're evil.[/QUOTE] Militaries are focusing more on infantry anyway, however, if removing armour and so on is the only way then so be it. Now since you've read my comment on the US' use of drones so often, do you accept that the US has committed numerous war crimes?
[QUOTE=Earthen;39177725]Militaries are focusing more on infantry anyway, however, if removing armour and so on is the only way then so be it. Now since you've read my comment on the US' use of drones so often, do you accept that the US has committed numerous war crimes?[/QUOTE] No. Because then you'd be able to prove it in the ICC/ICJ. Also that's incredibly stupid. I'm glad you want to fight an unscrupulous enemy without anything (PS civilians are still gonna die). It goes to show how out of touch you are.
[QUOTE=SKEEA;39128394]Honestly, yes. The local militaries benefit from the training and support we give them, and in turn they help us root out pockets of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups that are in their country.[/QUOTE] I don't think you really grasp how much of a fucking disaster it would be for America deploying across Africa. just because you nab a few Al-Qaeda cells and train the local military to better commit atrocities doesn't mean it's good.
woo more oil 4 me
[QUOTE=TheHydra;39074588]Hahaha isnt that just like him. Watch out everbody americas going home. Obamas home.....[/QUOTE] I laughed way harder at this then i should have...
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;39179872]I don't think you really grasp how much of a fucking disaster it would be for America deploying across Africa. just because you nab a few Al-Qaeda cells and train the local military to better commit atrocities doesn't mean it's good.[/QUOTE] I don't know if you know this, but the United States has been deployed in the African continent for a very long time. Hell, I have buddies deploying there soon to replace some units that have been here for a while anyways. We are everywhere in Africa, and we already have an entirely separate command for the continent, AFRICOM. And also, the training we give them is on how to be a more professional fighting force. AKA: not committing atrocities. We also have an officer training program with several governments in Africa, that get trained professionally at Ft. Leavenworth, KS. It is a good program. Regardless of what you may think, the US military is a very professional fighting force with some of the best training programs in the world. Anything to help out Africa is fine by me.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;39179872]I don't think you really grasp how much of a fucking disaster it would be for America deploying across Africa. just because you nab a few Al-Qaeda cells and train the local military to better commit atrocities doesn't mean it's good.[/QUOTE] i don't think you realize how much of a poorly informed disaster your post was
[QUOTE=SKEEA;39185948]I don't know if you know this, but the United States has been deployed in the African continent for a very long time. Hell, I have buddies deploying there soon to replace some units that have been here for a while anyways. We are everywhere in Africa, and we already have an entirely separate command for the continent, AFRICOM. [/quote] Yes, but you're missing one very vital piece of that info, across the continent, the US only has 2,000 people stationed there across a population of 1.3 Billion. The US military is notoriously bad at maths, more specifically ratios, so let me tell you how bad that is if you actually want to be effective. AFRICOM isn't even on a real budget anymore, it's literally a hole the DOD throws loose change into. Is this supposed to prove to me that making a widespread deployment is the same as it is now? Because it's not. [quote]And also, the training we give them is on how to be a more professional fighting force. AKA: not committing atrocities.[/quote] I don't think you understand how conscription and recruitment works in a lot of African countries. Arming and training militaries there is not a good idea until you see a real stabilised government, and even then, when an African country stabilises they develop their own. Even armies that seem organised and well trained, like the Rwandan Defence Forces pre-1994, were basically built and supplied by the French military. The French were so involved in their creation that they may as well have been a branch of their armed forces. Yet a million dead Tutsi's lay at their feet. You look it at it as a simple equation, send poor African general to Kansas and he becomes this warrior of freedom and justice. When in reality, you have A: some sketchy individuals working for some very sketchy governments and B: An uncertainty of how effective that military is or how long it'll last. The route of many of Africa's issues lie in its corrupt governments, giving them guns and well trained armies will solve fuck-all. [quote]We also have an officer training program with several governments in Africa, that get trained professionally at Ft. Leavenworth, KS. It is a good program. Regardless of what you may think, the US military is a very professional fighting force with some of the best training programs in the world. Anything to help out Africa is fine by me.[/QUOTE] There's lots to do to help Africa, teaching the militaries of corrupt governments to kill more efficiently is not one of them. The US military has a million of their own problems, last thing it should be doing is arming other governments. [QUOTE=W0w00t;39185983]i don't think you realize how much of a poorly informed disaster your post was[/QUOTE] Thanks for that brilliant rebuttal. You sure showed me. Tell you what, when you actually have the ability to point out Africa on a map, then come back to me.
[QUOTE=scout1;39179292]No. Because then you'd be able to prove it in the ICC/ICJ. Also that's incredibly stupid. I'm glad you want to fight an unscrupulous enemy without anything (PS civilians are still gonna die). It goes to show how out of touch you are.[/QUOTE] I could prove it in the ICC, but who would listen? It's the same with George Bush and declaring war on Iraq, it was illegal, but nothing would ever happen. I just want civilians to stop dying, and I find it hard to believe that you want that as well.
[QUOTE=Earthen;39195846]I could prove it in the ICC[/QUOTE] Excuse me while I laugh you out of the room [QUOTE=Earthen;39195846]I just want civilians to stop dying, and I find it hard to believe that you want that as well.[/QUOTE] Most of us aren't starry-eyed idealists blind to basic practicaltiy
[QUOTE=scout1;39195952]Excuse me while I laugh you out of the room Most of us aren't starry-eyed idealists blind to basic practicaltiy[/QUOTE] Killing citizens is practicality? Are you fucking serious? [editline]13th January 2013[/editline] Holy shit I knew your posts were bad but this is horrible.
War can never solve the world's problems. You can't feed people with guns, and you can never bring prosperity with arms. Economic cooperation, social castigation of dictators, and genuine, non-politically-motivated aid is the only way for outsiders to satisfactorily help Africa out of the shadow of imperialism and anarchy.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;39200006]Killing citizens is practicality? Are you fucking serious? [/QUOTE] Saying "WE WILL FIGHT A WAR WITHOUT WEAPONS" is ignoring basic practicality, yes.
[QUOTE=scout1;39200162]Saying "WE WILL FIGHT A WAR WITHOUT WEAPONS" is ignoring basic practicality, yes.[/QUOTE] Saying we should ignore all civilian casualties because of "practicality" is beyond stupidity.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;39200500]Saying we should ignore all civilian casualties because of "practicality" is beyond stupidity.[/QUOTE] No. But we're not going to toss away armor and guided missiles because accidents happen.
I hate how when when things like the Rwandan genocide happen, people cry about America/UN not intervening. And then when America/UN does intervene to stop something horrible from happening, everyone cries about it and says that we weren't invited and we're imperialist pigs or something.
[QUOTE=kaine123;39200582]I hate how when when things like the Rwandan genocide happen, people cry about America/UN not intervening. And then when America/UN does intervene to stop something horrible from happening, everyone cries about it and says that we weren't invited and we're imperialist pigs or something.[/QUOTE] Because... You need to have an intelligent involvement? Rwandan Genocide was a GENOCIDE. Deploying troops across Africa would be fucking disastrous and solve NOTHING. [editline]14th January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=scout1;39200510]No. But we're not going to toss away armor and guided missiles because accidents happen.[/QUOTE] Even though guided missiles create a massive amount of civilian casualties? That's perfectly okay with you because it's "Practical"? You are a fucking psychopath.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;39212972] Even though guided missiles create a massive amount of civilian casualties? That's perfectly okay with you because it's "Practical"? You are a fucking psychopath.[/QUOTE] Do you suggest we used unguided bombs instead? Or should we just say "Hey air force dudes yeah sit this one out" Because that would be a FANTASTIC use of our bomber fleet.
[QUOTE=scout1;39213374]Do you suggest we used unguided bombs instead? Or should we just say "Hey air force dudes yeah sit this one out" Because that would be a FANTASTIC use of our bomber fleet.[/QUOTE] How about we don't use tactics that cause massive amounts of civilian casualties. Ever think of that one, genius?
goodbye money
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;39222202]How about we don't use tactics that cause massive amounts of civilian casualties. Ever think of that one, genius?[/QUOTE] Yet [B]neither you nor Earthen can mention any[/B] that supposedly cause this. Instead you want to [url=http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1236909&p=39212972&viewfull=1#post39212972]throw away precision munitions[/url], which mind you the US now uses almost exclusively, solely BECAUSE they want to reduce civilian casualties! If the US military listened to you, they'd be dumb bombing your house right now.
[QUOTE=scout1;39223390]Yet [B]neither you nor Earthen can mention any[/B] that supposedly cause this. Instead you want to [url=http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1236909&p=39212972&viewfull=1#post39212972]throw away precision munitions[/url], which mind you the US now uses almost exclusively, solely BECAUSE they want to reduce civilian casualties! If the US military listened to you, they'd be dumb bombing your house right now.[/QUOTE] Are you... seriously denying the civilian casulty issues of drone strikes? Uhhh Drones do not reduce civilian casualties. They never have, they never will. Just saying their purpose with zero facts behind it does not support your blatant disregard for human life. Okay, scout1's arguments against using drone strikes which cause high civilian casualties 1) Practicality 2) Munitions going to waste At what age did you start torturing small animals?
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