"Make drugs legally available", says Ex-Minister Bob Ainsworth
225 replies, posted
Because deaths due to illegal drugs totally eclipse deaths due to Tobacco and Alcohol.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26797100]You're telling me the majority of ice addicts live normal, successful, happy lives?[/QUOTE]
They live more succesful lives than you think they do. You think they wallow around and do shit all every day. You don't know how many addicts there are in the countries we live in, getting by and doing their thing without anyone knowing their an addict.
Seriously, you have such a boner for hating on addicts and drugs, it's hilarious.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;26799106]I don't believe that all addicts are thieves, liars and killers. But a good share of them are, you can't deny that! And with legalisation, there would probably be more addicts, as well as more people who does these drugs with more.. ease? You know
I'm not prejudiced, but with legalisation of all drugs, I just won't trust all people to use them with care, no fucking way, and if you think everyone would treat harder drugs with precise care when they are legalised, then let me laugh at you.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for proving you're an idiot to me.
A good share of them? No. Not really. There are too many, but the amount of addicts FAR exceeds your estimations of it, not only that, the type of people that are addicts is wildly different than what you think as well. Legislation won't create more addicts. Portugual had the worst drug problem in the EU, and what did they do to fix it? They legalized all drugs, even the addictive scary ones you're ignorant about. Guess what happened? Drug use went down on all fronts. Almost overnight drug abuse fell down and the only people still doing it are people who WANT to be doing it, not people who are addicts.
God fucking damn it you people are so ignorant of precedents, of reality, of anything important to this situation, yet you still insist on the fact you're right, ignoring ALL fucking evidence.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Legitimate education about drug use, drug abuse, drug effects, and all sorts of things in that area would be 10000x more effective than banning them. Does prohibition work? No. Will it ever? NO IT FUCKING WON'T. You only harm yourself by forcing it upon people, it's a proven historical fucking FACT that prohibition is a total fucking failure. Right now we're in a prohibition. how well is it working? Not working at all.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
For fucks sakes, drug use has gone UP dramatically since the "war on Drugs" started. Why do you ignore these facts and insist your emotional response to a substance you actually know nothing about is right?
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=kurry;26797464]Heroin is well known to be MUCH stronger (up to 3x intravenously) and more addictive than morphine.I still agree with you, but fail to see what made you think that.[/QUOTE]
I've heard from the majority of people that morphines more addictive(Also heard this from a doctor or two) but I think you're probably right on the power of it now that I think about it.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=zydos;26800908]ITT: Everyone raging at me over playing devil's advocate[/QUOTE]
HAHAHA You think what you said caused anything in this thread? Get the fuck over yourself. What you said was almost worthless, especially as devils advocate.
When you say drug abuse went down on all fronts, do you mean arrests/charges of drug possession/use, or drug use in general.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;26806299]When you say drug abuse went down on all fronts, do you mean arrests/charges of drug possession/use, or drug use in general.[/QUOTE]
Drug use in general. Drug use fell down huge amounts compared to when it was legal. They set up programs to help addicts get out of it if they wanted to. Etc.
It's literally the first post of this thread, and I know I personally have posted this precedent at least once in every drug thread that comes up here, and it's ignored by most posters who just want to bullshit these threads.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26797100]You're telling me the majority of ice addicts live normal, successful, happy lives?[/QUOTE]
You really would be surprised.
Chemically morphine is more powerful and addictive, if I remember correctly morphine carries two of the responsible analgesic functional groups.
Not sure about the actual desired effects of the drugs but I'm pretty sure it's about twice as powerful as heroin in a painkilling capacity.
Legalise, regulate and monitor all drugs, offer help to anyone who gets addicted, if anyone gets addicted then put them on a programme that helps reduce the addiction.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26805506]HAHAHA You think what you said caused anything in this thread? Get the fuck over yourself. What you said was almost worthless, especially as devils advocate.[/QUOTE]
Woah calm down sparky
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Also, I made you mad. Get the fuck over myself.
[QUOTE=bravehat;26807331]Chemically morphine is more powerful and addictive, if I remember correctly morphine carries two of the responsible analgesic functional groups.
Not sure about the actual desired effects of the drugs but I'm pretty sure it's about twice as powerful as heroin in a painkilling capacity..[/QUOTE]
Heroin is the diacetyl ester of morphine. When ingested it's a prodrug for morphine (simple deacetylation), and then when injected intravenously it directly crosses the blood brain barrier as it is more fat soluble than morphine; when in the brain it is also diacetylated into a few minor metabolites and then into morphine.
So it's overall about the same as morphine, maybe a bit stronger because it crosses the BBB quicker, but not very much so.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26805506]They live more succesful lives than you think they do. You think they wallow around and do shit all every day. You don't know how many addicts there are in the countries we live in, getting by and doing their thing without anyone knowing their an addict.
Seriously, you have such a boner for hating on addicts and drugs, it's hilarious.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if I believe that. From where I'm at, I only hear horror stories of ice, its ravaging effects, and the poor bastards who get sucked into it for whatever reason. Now you're telling me that no, it's actually mostly fine and the silent majority live normal lives - with ice. How can you expect me to believe that?
Evidently I can't ask you questions any more without it being an example of my flaws, somehow. You think there's no reason I should be skeptical?
Doesn't morphine possess two of the active functional groups though?
I thought it had difficulty passing through the blood brain barrier but when it did it was more potent, or am I thinking about localised injections to an area?
Fuck knows, been a while since I actually done drug studies in forensics, all this fucking year has been is fucking statistics.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26808522]I'm not sure if I believe that. From where I'm at, I only hear horror stories of ice, its ravaging effects, and the poor bastards who get sucked into it for whatever reason. Now you're telling me that no, it's actually mostly fine and the silent majority live normal lives - with ice. How can you expect me to believe that?
Evidently I can't ask you questions any more without it being an example of my flaws, somehow. You think there's no reason I should be skeptical?[/QUOTE]
Yeah but people have agendas, why would most main stream media want to publish stories of people who are doing hard drugs but can get along quite fine?
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26808522]I'm not sure if I believe that. From where I'm at, I only hear horror stories of ice, its ravaging effects, and the poor bastards who get sucked into it for whatever reason. Now you're telling me that no, it's actually mostly fine and the silent majority live normal lives - with ice. How can you expect me to believe that?
Evidently I can't ask you questions any more without it being an example of my flaws, somehow. You think there's no reason I should be skeptical?[/QUOTE]
So you think you hearing about ONLY those stories means only those stories happen? Let me throw some Bill Hicks at you, They never publish stories with any good side to drugs, so of course you don't hear anything but horror stories. And no, it's fine that you're skeptical, but it's hilarious that you take the typical Fox News style opinion to it and just ignore the fact that not all addicts ARE the horror stories. It's the simple fact we've had this argument 10 times before and despite precedents, facts, history, etc, you still think drugs are better illegal, that the only drug users are addicts and horror stories, and etc, why would I respect your knowledge? You don't know anything.
God, you're naive.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=zydos;26808218]Woah calm down sparky
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Also, I made you mad. Get the fuck over myself.[/QUOTE]
Not mad, you made me frustrated if anything.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26808705]Not mad, you made me frustrated if anything.[/QUOTE]
Then uh. I made you frustrated. Get the fuck over myself.
[QUOTE=bravehat;26808529]Doesn't morphine possess two of the active functional groups though?
I thought it had difficulty passing through the blood brain barrier but when it did it was more potent, or am I thinking about localised injections to an area?
Fuck knows, been a while since I actually done drug studies in forensics, all this fucking year has been is fucking statistics.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, heroin is the same as morphine, but with a diacetyl group on it, as well. Heroin passes the blood-brain barrier quicker than morhpine as a result of its structure, and then deacetylates into morphine and a couple other minor metabolites in the brain.
Morphine is an agonist (strong) of the μ-opioid, κ-opioid and δ-opioid receptors.
While i agree this is a better idea than the current solution it must also come with education, to kids in school and the general population, on the FACTS of what these drugs do to you as well as more education on the effects of legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco.
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;26809036]Like I said, heroin is the same as morphine, but with a diacetyl group on it, as well. Heroin passes the blood-brain barrier quicker than morhpine as a result of its structure, and then deacetylates into morphine and a couple other minor metabolites in the brain.
Morphine is an agonist (strong) of the μ-opioid, κ-opioid and δ-opioid receptors.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough, my drug chemistry is a bit rusty to say the least.
if it will help the country then i dont see what the big deal is
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26808705]So you think you hearing about ONLY those stories means only those stories happen? Let me throw some Bill Hicks at you, They never publish stories with any good side to drugs, so of course you don't hear anything but horror stories. And no, it's fine that you're skeptical, but it's hilarious that you take the typical Fox News style opinion to it and just ignore the fact that not all addicts ARE the horror stories. It's the simple fact we've had this argument 10 times before and despite precedents, facts, history, etc, you still think drugs are better illegal, that the only drug users are addicts and horror stories, and etc, why would I respect your knowledge? You don't know anything.
God, you're naive.[/QUOTE]
Well, prove it, then. Don't speak to me of Fox News, or Republicans, or any other American conservative stereotype; I'm not American. Rather, I get my information from my school education and other government material, as well as the fact that most of the people I know who use drugs are somewhat dodgy. And of all this, I'm pretty sure there isn't some Australian joint Labor/Liberal conspiracy to lie to Australians about the positive use of drugs. So, if it's so easy to prove and been done so many times... do it.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26810425]Well, prove it, then. Don't speak to me of Fox News, or Republicans, or any other American conservative stereotype; I'm not American. Rather, I get my information from my school education and other government material, as well as the fact that most of the people I know who use drugs are somewhat dodgy. And of all this, I'm pretty sure there isn't some Australian joint Labor/Liberal conspiracy to lie to Australians about the positive use of drugs. So, if it's so easy to prove and been done so many times... do it.[/QUOTE]
Right, because the stories where some guy does Acid, and has a good time to himself can EVER get fucking published. The point is, you're asking for me to give you published info of stories that simply don't get reported because there is nothing to report. The media only reports stories they can get attention off of, you know that, or you should know that. So why would there ever be a story of "Man takes acid, has good time, doesn't kill anyone" ever make the news? This is the issue, there are more times that someone has done a drug and simply had a good time to themselves and never hurt or harmed anyone else than there are horror stories of drug use and abuse. Can I give you a thousand articles of anything but drug abuse horror stories? No, so if you want to believe that almost all addicts do drugs, rip their own faces off, and etc, then go ahead, be a naive fucking ass, that's your business, you clearly don't want to realize that more "normal" people are drug users than you think.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Oh, and not being a republican doesn't change the fact you're far right wing by all that you've said and shown me on this site.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=zydos;26808892]Then uh. I made you frustrated. Get the fuck over myself.[/QUOTE]
Ok, how about you make a contribution to the topic rather than stroking your own ego?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26810788]Right, because the stories where some guy does Acid, and has a good time to himself can EVER get fucking published. The point is, you're asking for me to give you published info of stories that simply don't get reported because there is nothing to report. The media only reports stories they can get attention off of, you know that, or you should know that. So why would there ever be a story of "Man takes acid, has good time, doesn't kill anyone" ever make the news? This is the issue, there are more times that someone has done a drug and simply had a good time to themselves and never hurt or harmed anyone else than there are horror stories of drug use and abuse. Can I give you a thousand articles of anything but drug abuse horror stories? No, so if you want to believe that almost all addicts do drugs, rip their own faces off, and etc, then go ahead, be a naive fucking ass, that's your business, you clearly don't want to realize that more "normal" people are drug users than you think.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Oh, and not being a republican doesn't change the fact you're far right wing by all that you've said and shown me on this site.[/QUOTE]
There is a science called epidemiology, along with one sociology. News articles aren't the only source of info in this world. (thankfully)
[url]http://scholar.google.com/[/url]
(I do agree with him that you need to cite your sources. But I agree with you about the issue at hand.)
[QUOTE=Kagrenak;26810907]There is a science called epidemiology, along with one sociology. News articles aren't the only source of info in this world. (thankfully)
[url]http://scholar.google.com/[/url]
(I do agree with him that you need to cite your sources. But I agree with you about the issue at hand.)[/QUOTE]
I wish I knew how to is my problem though. How can you cite that more people simply sit at home and don't tell anyone that they're doing drugs and having a dandy time? You can't cite that or anything, it's not going to be reported, it's not going to be a big deal, but that's the majority of drug use, horror stories are few and far between, but are blown up by the media to be the majority, it's really hard to deal with.
Any advice?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26810788]Right, because the stories where some guy does Acid, and has a good time to himself can EVER get fucking published. The point is, you're asking for me to give you published info of stories that simply don't get reported because there is nothing to report. The media only reports stories they can get attention off of, you know that, or you should know that. So why would there ever be a story of "Man takes acid, has good time, doesn't kill anyone" ever make the news? This is the issue, there are more times that someone has done a drug and simply had a good time to themselves and never hurt or harmed anyone else than there are horror stories of drug use and abuse. Can I give you a thousand articles of anything but drug abuse horror stories? No, so if you want to believe that almost all addicts do drugs, rip their own faces off, and etc, then go ahead, be a naive fucking ass, that's your business, you clearly don't want to realize that more "normal" people are drug users than you think.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Oh, and not being a republican doesn't change the fact you're far right wing by all that you've said and shown me on this site.
[/QUOTE]
OK, but forgive me if I won't just take your word for it. And I'm not far right.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26811804]OK, but forgive me if I won't just take your word for it. And I'm not far right.[/QUOTE]
No? You've presented that as your point of view in almost every argument we've had dating back quite a while now.
And sorry if I don't take the news outlets word as 100% of addicts and drug users are the horror stories because in my personal experience of being an addict, and in my life of knowing people addicted to all sorts of shit, I've never seen one horror story even a tenth as bad as what ends up on the news, and I've had a fucked up life in that department. I can understand why you think that, and my attitude before was fairly unwarranted. However, it just really comes down to do you think the news is going to report a story that isn't a horror story? No, of course not, they'll only report the most fucked up things they can get away with.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1CvW38cHA&feature=related[/media]
I'm addicted to a stimulant. If I don't have it, I get bad withdrawals so I have to do it everyday. I become unmotivated and get irritated easily and my cravings get so bad. I can't function without it and I can't go on throughout the day without it. If I'm on the streets and I have a chance to get it, I'll pay some hard cash to get some, and then ingest it right on the streets. It's no big deal where I live. The rush is fantastic and it just makes me feel so good. Sometimes I do too much and my hands get shaky, but that's ok. With the stuff on the streets it is hard to know how much you'll be getting, but many brands now tell you, especially with energy drinks. I'm very glad it is legal.
[QUOTE=Pepin;26813225]I'm addicted to a stimulant. If I don't have it, I get bad withdrawals so I have to do it everyday. I become unmotivated and get irritated easily and my cravings get so bad. I can't function without it and I can't go on throughout the day without it. If I'm on the streets and I have a chance to get it, I'll pay some hard cash to get some, and then ingest it right on the streets. It's no big deal where I live. The rush is fantastic and it just makes me feel so good. Sometimes I do too much and my hands get shaky, but that's ok. With the stuff on the streets it is hard to know how much you'll be getting, but many brands now tell you, especially with energy drinks. I'm very glad it is legal.[/QUOTE]
Caffeine, and tylenol or any equivalent kill more people per year than heroin does. Yet heroin is so bad for you, huh?
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
shitty source, but I have seen these same numbers else where.
[url]http://www.electricemperor.com/enter/how.html[/url]
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Actually, source is fine if you read where they source that from.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26812974]No? You've presented that as your point of view in almost every argument we've had dating back quite a while now.
And sorry if I don't take the news outlets word as 100% of addicts and drug users are the horror stories because in my personal experience of being an addict, and in my life of knowing people addicted to all sorts of shit, I've never seen one horror story even a tenth as bad as what ends up on the news, and I've had a fucked up life in that department. I can understand why you think that, and my attitude before was fairly unwarranted. However, it just really comes down to do you think the news is going to report a story that isn't a horror story? No, of course not, they'll only report the most fucked up things they can get away with.
[/QUOTE]
Because nearly all your views are left wing, and thus the only way we can be arguing is if my views aren't that - thus, more right-oriented. That doesn't mean anything, though - do we argue on every single issue in the world? No. Are all my views "conservative"? No.
I understand your point about the media. Of course they only report horror stories about a lot of things, because humans have this bizarre attraction to the violent, obscene and downright horrible. However, I gain my views from more than just the local rag, but a whole variety of things. I see interviews with hospital staff who deal with screaming, violent addicts being pulled in every night, I see government education, etc. I don't ever see anything good about these sorts of drugs - not just in the news, but anywhere (save here, I suppose).
You tell me you had a relatively fine experience with drugs. I believe you, and I would not presume that every single person who uses hard drugs will become the living dead. However, I can't believe that everything I hear is really just an insignificant minority.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26813394]Because nearly all your views are left wing, and thus the only way we can be arguing is if my views aren't that - thus, more right-oriented. That doesn't mean anything, though - do we argue on every single issue in the world? No. Are all my views "conservative"? No.
I understand your point about the media. Of course they only report horror stories about a lot of things, because humans have this bizarre attraction to the violent, obscene and downright horrible. However, I gain my views from more than just the local rag, but a whole variety of things. I see interviews with hospital staff who deal with screaming, violent addicts being pulled in every night, I see government education, etc. I don't ever see anything good about these sorts of drugs - not just in the news, but anywhere (save here, I suppose).
You tell me you had a relatively fine experience with drugs. I believe you, and I would not presume that every single person who uses hard drugs will become the living dead. However, I can't believe that everything I hear is really just an insignificant minority.[/QUOTE]
It's a more significant amount of people because it's illegal... It WOULD, and WILL go down if it's legalized, there's so many precedents for that...
And depends what drugs we're talking about, and more importantly, the people we're talking about, some people are simply not meant to do drugs, for whatever reasons, whether they be latent genetic conditions, or simply no willpower, there is a reason they should be legal, and that's to keep you safe from them and help people who do do them. Imagining that we're safer with them illegal and criminal cartels making billions of dollars selling them to you is ridiculous, at least the government would sell them, regulate them, and make it require something more than just money to get it.
Legalize, and that problem goes away.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
And I've talked with many police officers, and a good deal of them say they just wish the shit was legal so they didn't have to deal with a lot of the crap that comes with it. Making it illegal may give some of them jobs, but none of it's worth it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;26813281]Caffeine, and tylenol or any equivalent kill more people per year than heroin does. Yet heroin is so bad for you, huh?[/QUOTE]
Most caffeine related deaths are due to pills, typically weight loss pills. Caffeine is a very safe drug except when it comes to pills and people with really really weak hearts or odd medical conditions. Most of the over the counter stuff is OTC because to OD you have to try to OD. Even with OTC sleeping pills, when you OD on them you just start tripping. With Tylenol and stuff like that, it isn't so much the case and death is a lot easier to come by. But none of what I said is very related to the point.
I think that in our society there are acceptable addictions, like to caffeine. Most adults can get through the day without it. There are other activities that people like to dramatize, such as video game addiction. There are so many examples of addictions that people make seem so dramatic, even addictions to work. There is a very common theme where if someone is against smoking pot and their friends start smoking pot, their friends are always said to be addicted.
You guys are correct when you say that say cigarettes and alcohol kill more people yearly than heroine, coke, etc. However, FAR more people are using cigarettes and alcohol than heroine and coke.
Yet, from this you are trying to imply that cigarettes and alcohol are more dangerous, which is an invalid argument because of the population size that is being examined.
Do you mean to say that if heroine and coke were legalized (along with the already legalized cigarettes and alcohol), there would be less deaths and/or lives ruined? That logic is absurd!
All drugs should be completely legal, and unregulated. Whoever dies from ODing are too stupid to live anyway.
One fatal flaw I can see is that they'll also be stupid enough to get in a car and drive, endangering other people, but I'm sure there's a workaround for that.
[QUOTE=brerben;26814556]You guys are correct when you say that say cigarettes and alcohol kill more people yearly than heroine, coke, etc. However, FAR more people are using cigarettes and alcohol than heroine and coke.
Yet, from this you are trying to imply that cigarettes and alcohol are more dangerous, which is an invalid argument because of the population size that is being examined.
Do you mean to say that if heroine and coke were legalized (along with the already legalized cigarettes and alcohol), there would be less deaths and/or lives ruined? That logic is absurd![/QUOTE]
Dear. Fucking. God.
No, it's per capita, please for you're own sake learn what the fuck a percentage is.
Also, look at precedents. Any country which has legalized and regulated drugs have seen incredible drop offs of drug use.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Big Ben;26814771]All drugs should be completely legal, and unregulated. Whoever dies from ODing are too stupid to live anyway.
One fatal flaw I can see is that they'll also be stupid enough to get in a car and drive, endangering other people, but I'm sure there's a workaround for that.[/QUOTE]
It's illegal for people to drink and drive, yet they still do. There are some margins that can never be closed.
[editline]19th December 2010[/editline]
Go ahead and dumb me breben, I know you're argument must be brilliant if you can argue this shit like a child.
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