[QUOTE=Tudd;51637173]The best part is I did, and I still haven't seen why my points are at all wrong.[/QUOTE]
Well, in the general population people get approval from therapists before getting SRS IIRC. I don't imagine it's different at all in prison (article lady went through it for one.) If it isn't then of course that's wrong, and there should be both.
"suffice" is the key word. I could apply that to antidepressents, chemo, etc.. Those things don't happen on their own as treatments and are coupled with other things, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be done.
[quote]Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.[/quote]
let's not do hormonal therapy either since it has the same problems. That money should go to therapy. :v:
So is California going to pay for every gender swap in the state, or is it just people who have killed other people?
[QUOTE=BANNED USER;51637280]So is California going to pay for every gender swap in the state, or is it just people who have killed other people?[/QUOTE]
Just should be the people who care other people.
So fucking metal.
/s
[QUOTE=BANNED USER;51637280]So is California going to pay for every gender swap in the state, or is it just people who have killed other people?[/QUOTE]
This reflects more on the utterly abysmal state of American healthcare, rather than its treatment of prisoners.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51636356]Post-chemotherapy deaths are also widespread, should we stop treating cancer patients then?[/QUOTE]
You wont die if you dont get gender surgery, with chemo your survival is none to slim.
An analogy is meant to draw attention to [i]certain[/i] shared characteristics. Picking it apart as if it's meant to be a one-to-one correspondence means that you've obviously missed the key points. Stop doing that.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;51637062]
That sort of attitude keeps the prison population high. If you want less people, you have to give them skills and a place to be outside of jail.[/QUOTE]
No outdated drug laws and other silly laws combined with private prison and lobbying keeps our prisons high.
Not wanting a person who slaughtered a family to stay in prison for life. Jesus, how out of touch with reality are you.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51637293]This reflects more on the utterly abysmal state of American healthcare, rather than the state of its prisons.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty obvious as to why prisons take care of your medical needs.
I mean technically prisoners can get """"jobs"""" that pay less than a dollar an hour. But I'd probably just laugh if someone suggested that they can pay for their own health care.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51637312]No outdated drug laws and other silly laws combined with private prison and lobbying keeps our prisons high.
Not wanting a person who slaughtered a family to stay in prison for life. Jesus, how out of touch with reality are you.[/QUOTE]That's your personal conviction. It should be an OPTION that can occur if therapists deem the person able to return to the general population.
I'm not even saying it should be an expedient process for killers. Make it take several evaluations, keep them monitored for awhile after letting them out, and so-on.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51637173]The best part is I did, and I still haven't seen why my points are at all wrong or go against what the study concluded.[/QUOTE]
When treating a transperson, the general pathway is
therapy to determine you're trans -> HRT -> more therapy to make sure you still want this ->SRS(eventually) -> aftercare therapy to make sure your life is alright.
this is the generally accepted medical pathway that would take once determining you're trans from start to "finish". it changes slightly from region to region(Some places require an RLE or real life experience)
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51637305]An analogy is meant to draw attention to [i]certain[/i] shared characteristics. Picking it apart as if it's meant to be a one-to-one correspondence means that you've obviously missed the key points. Stop doing that.[/QUOTE]
Guys stop dissecting my flawed statement.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51637312]No outdated drug laws and other silly laws combined with private prison and lobbying keeps our prisons high.
Not wanting a person who slaughtered a family to stay in prison for life. Jesus, how out of touch with reality are you.[/QUOTE]
if this person that murdered an entire family was eligible for rehabilitation, why shouldn't they be rehabilitated?
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51637323]Guys stop dissecting my flawed statement.[/QUOTE]
It's not a flawed analogy when you take into account what it was responding to.
The original post was saying that people still kill themselves after getting "gender surgery."
People still die with chemo. It's a non-sequitur to then say that SRS shouldn't be done, that's what it's illustrating.
[QUOTE=Blazedol;51637327]if this person that murdered an entire family was eligible for rehabilitation, why shouldn't they be rehabilitated?[/QUOTE]
Rehabilitate them. I'm all for trying, but there is no way to know someone won't murder a family except for that person graciously not murdering an entire family. I mean I know that's a lot to ask for.
Meanwhile homeless veterans are walking around the streets deaf/blind/disabled, but if you murder somebody you can get reassignment surgery and fancy new jewelry? Okay.
[QUOTE=thejjokerr;51637337]So we can use what you call an analogy as arguments in a discussion and just have people not object to it?
You're like Hitler man.
(you have shared characteristics. Both human, both have hair, eyes, nose and mouth, probably some other body parts and both went to school.
You also both make remarks that make me go: wtf dude)[/QUOTE]
When you miss the basic points (both are diseases/disorders, and both have widely accepted courses of treatments, so if you are okay with one you should be okay with the other) and instead nitpick on the differences, then yes, you should probably stop.
[editline]7th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=srobins;51637355]Meanwhile homeless veterans are walking around the streets deaf/blind/disabled, but if you murder somebody you can get reassignment surgery and fancy new jewelry? Okay.[/QUOTE]
This just means that America's treatment of veterans is fucking garbage, not that its treatment of prisoners is too good. Maybe it should start treating its veterans better.
[QUOTE=thejjokerr;51637337]So we can use what you call an analogy as arguments in a discussion and just have people not object to it?
You're like Hitler man.
(you have shared characteristics. Both human, both have hair, eyes, nose and mouth, probably some other body parts and both went to school.
You also both make remarks that make me go: wtf dude)[/QUOTE]
And now we got Hitler in this thread too. Sigh, really? The point was against the retarded idea that "we shouldn't help these people because they might kill themselves anyway" but still we are helping cancer patients who might not survive even if we do help them.
[QUOTE=thejjokerr;51637392]I really thought the sarcasm exploded of my post when I re-read it. Am I alone in this?[/QUOTE]
Sarcasm or not it was an awful post.
[QUOTE=srobins;51637355]Meanwhile homeless veterans are walking around the streets deaf/blind/disabled, but if you murder somebody you can get reassignment surgery and fancy new jewelry? Okay.[/QUOTE]
Eh, Statements like have always made me roll my eyes.
It's like when people try to justify axing welfare by arguing that people with jobs make less than people on the dole- Perhaps they should blame their shitty employer for paying them below welfare levels?.
I feel like we should put more effort into improving the lives of the disabled, the homeless, the veterans etc rather than attempt to bring "less deserving" people down to the same level of suffering to make it "fair".
[QUOTE=srobins;51637355]Meanwhile homeless veterans are walking around the streets deaf/blind/disabled, but if you murder somebody you can get reassignment surgery and fancy new jewelry? Okay.[/QUOTE]
What about the starving children in africa man huh? What about them?
Do veterans deserved to be treated better? Yes! Do prisoners deserve healthcare? I personally think yes! These two ideas are not mutually exclusive!
I guess I should be happy for this person? If they end up killing themselves in a few months like some ~40%(?) of people who receive this procedure, would it have really been worth it? Fuck, if even a single penny of federal tax funds went to this, I'm gonna be real fucking angry.
[editline]7th January 2017[/editline]
I've got nothing against the trans but iirc the science is still out on this, let's give it a little more time and study before we start taking state-sponsored scalpels to people's nether regions.
[QUOTE=Headhumpy;51636345]She has a medical disorder that required treatment so that she would stop trying to kill herself. The prison provided her with this treatment. There's nothing more to it.[/QUOTE]
It's a bit different when it's life saving vs elective
Funded by Tax Payer Money is a terrible idea, because at some stage, a Victim's Family will be paying for the Guilty's Healthcare.
Really messed up.
I am not saying they shouldn't get Healthcare, just not by Tax Payers.
[QUOTE=Xonax;51638263]Funded by Tax Payer Money is a terrible idea, because at some stage, a Victim's Family will be paying for the Guilty's Healthcare.
Really messed up.
I am not saying they shouldn't get Healthcare, just not by Tax Payers.[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about healthcare generally or this procedure?
[QUOTE=Xonax;51638263]Funded by Tax Payer Money is a terrible idea, because at some stage, a Victim's Family will be paying for the Guilty's Healthcare.
Really messed up.
I am not saying they shouldn't get Healthcare, just not by Tax Payers.[/QUOTE] They should pay for it themselves with the 0.38 cents per hour they get paid for work in prison.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51637173]The best part is I did, and I still haven't seen why my points are at all wrong or go against what the study concluded.[/QUOTE]
[url=https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/3rws5s/comprehensive_defense_against_antitrans_talking/]Points number 3 and especially 6, please.[/url]
Moreover, there's no way that healthcare providers will provide access to surgery without documented medical need. That need is established through therapy, which was clearly provided to the prisoner described in the OP.
[QUOTE=The golden;51638497]Why is this suddenly an issue in the US? Most other countries state-fund their SR surgeries via their medical systems and have for some time.[/QUOTE]
It's an issue because there is an ongoing debate over here regarding the necessity of socialized medicine at all, let alone this kind of procedure which may have a host of side effects we haven't been able to study yet. I'm not taking a hard stance on that, but suffice it to say the issue is more regarding the use of taxpayer funds than whether SRS actually works. A skeptical doctor or lawyer might give a better response.
That said, "most other countries do it" is not a compelling reason to adopt this policy.
[QUOTE=The golden;51638594]Able-bodied and working people pay taxes and some of those taxes are used to provide healthcare service to all people - including inmates. I don't see the issue here or what makes it so complicated.[/QUOTE]
Because being trans is icky and gross to a lot of ignorant people, and those people like to pretend that they have everyone's best interest in mind when trying to deny equal treatment and healthcare to certain groups.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51638478]They should pay for it themselves with the 0.38 cents per hour they get paid for work in prison.[/QUOTE]
I never said they should pay for it themselves.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51638468]Are you talking about healthcare generally or this procedure?[/QUOTE]
Well I am not entirely sure what the Healthcare situation is like in Prisons in America, but it sounds way better than the general population's healthcare.
Or is this just a one off thing and not healthcare related?
But either way, it is still a terrible idea cause the family of the Victim is now paying for the Prisoner's SRS.
If I was them I wouldn't want a cent of money going towards someone who hurt the family.
[QUOTE=Xonax;51638704]I never said they should pay for it themselves.
Well I am not entirely sure what the Healthcare situation is like in Prisons in America, but it sounds way better than the general population's healthcare.
Or is this just a one off thing and not healthcare related?
But either way, it is still a terrible idea cause the family of the Victim is now paying for the Prisoner's SRS.
If I was them I wouldn't want a cent of money going towards someone who hurt the family.[/QUOTE]
Their money has already been going to feeding, housing, clothing, etc. that person. And along with that, their money has been going to therapy for this person, and other medical stuff.
This is how taxes work.
What's the alternative to the state and thus tax dollars paying for this person's health care?
[QUOTE=Xonax;51638704]I never said they should pay for it themselves.
Well I am not entirely sure what the Healthcare situation is like in Prisons in America, but it sounds way better than the general population's healthcare.
Or is this just a one off thing and not healthcare related?
But either way, it is still a terrible idea cause the family of the Victim is now paying for the Prisoner's SRS.
If I was them I wouldn't want a cent of money going towards someone who hurt the family.[/QUOTE]
The courts sentence prisoners to jail. Not to humiliation, not to torture, not to starvation, and not to anything resembling hostile, negligent health care. Say a prisoner develops an infection in the root of one of his teeth. Does a slow, painful death to an easily-treated infection factor into his "punishment?" Should a prisoner with a history of psychotic behavior be left untreated because they no longer deserve sanity? The answer to these questions is obviously [B]no[/B]. So what makes it okay to deny trans people access to health care? Is it because their condition is somehow less valid than others'?
SRS isn't a goody or a handout. It's the medically-recommended response to a mental condition that eats away at a person's self worth and robs them of a sense of self-identity. To refuse treatment is to inflict cruelty, full-stop.
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