• California funds 1st US inmate sex reassignment
    125 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Chonch;51638169]I guess I should be happy for this person? If they end up killing themselves in a few months like some ~40%(?) of people who receive this procedure, would it have really been worth it? Fuck, if even a single penny of federal tax funds went to this, I'm gonna be real fucking angry.[/QUOTE] Care to find a single source to back up this 40% postop suicide rate? Furthermore can you find out if this is due to the surgery or societal issues? [quote] I've got nothing against the trans but iirc the science is still out on this, let's give it a little more time and study before we start taking state-sponsored scalpels to people's nether regions.[/quote] the science is already there. Or else we wouldnt do it.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;51638838]Care to find a single source to back up this 40% postop suicide rate? Furthermore can you find out if this is due to the surgery or societal issues?[/QUOTE] I'll admit when I made the post on mobile, I pulled that number out of my ass based off a study I think I had heard before. I'm on PC now so I'll find it for you. [editline]oh wow boy gee do i hate trans i just hate the trans so much guys you have no idea[/editline] Okay, I misinterpreted. The 41% figure came out of [URL="http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/resources_and_tools/ntds_report_on_health.pdf"]this study[/URL] which mixes up post-ops with pre-ops, but with a majority of them having obtained some form of transitional care. [URL="http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885"]This oft-cited Swedish study[/URL] reports a rate on post-ops as high as 20%, but it's a little sketchy. Numbers on this are difficult to find, but there are some personal accounts and articles that cite a generally high suicide rate among post-ops. [URL="http://lvtgw.jadephoenix.org/Info_htm/Herbal_G/ginko_b2.htm"]Here's an interesting one.[/URL] Long-term studies on trans is probably pretty difficult since they make up such a microscopic fraction of the population--not something I'm very keen to spend tax dollars on in any regard. The way I see it, this whole situation is just too murky and unsubstantiated to be making any serious policy decisions just yet. The doctor I just linked made a really intriguing statement that brings the situation into a different light: [QUOTE]The transsexual candidate, he added, has been described as "the only patient who diagnoses himself and prescribes his own treatment."[/QUOTE] Rather than write up another paragraph or two on the subject I'll link some maybe-unrelated other articles and studies that I found interesting. As for the original statement, I guess you can disregard the specific number. [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth"][1][/URL][URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18981931"][2][/URL][URL="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/#pone.0016885-Hepp1"][3][/URL][URL="https://sexnotgender.com/2013/10/16/long-term-studies-on-the-efficacy-of-sex-reassignment-procedures-objective-versus-subjective-measurements/"][4][/URL][URL="http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html"][5][/URL] I will say though that if you're going to be doing experimental treatments for a not-too-well understood disease that may just kill your patient down the line, you might as well be doing it on a life-serving convicted killer--probably the least worthy-of-concern demographic in the country if something goes horribly wrong. Props for that, I suppose. [editline]7th January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=The golden;51638594]Able-bodied and working people pay taxes and some of those taxes are used to provide healthcare service to all people - including inmates. I don't see the issue here or what makes it so complicated. As for the procedure itself that is for the patients doctors and health professionals to help them decide. SRS is in many cases a life saver and helps some people not live a life of eternal torture.[/QUOTE] The issue I take is whether this really classifies as "healthcare." HRT and cutting up your genitals is bound to fuck with your hormones--is that really promoting your health? I know a few trans, they're really alright people--but the ones that didn't do op have just wound up being gay and renouncing the whole thing as a phase. Look, ultimately I want people to be able to do what they want with their bodies, but let's not normalize this sort of stuff by getting the government involved--you're gonna end up with some really impressionable, confused people who get pressured into doing this and ruining their lives when they realize they've fucked up. It's the same argument as for staying the legalization of drugs, except in this case the trans doesn't offer millions of dollars of tax revenue in return for the policy.
[QUOTE=Chonch;51639132]The transsexual candidate, he added, has been described as "the only patient who diagnoses himself and prescribes his own treatment."[/QUOTE] Damn that's a really good point. I have always found it odd that its considered irrational for someone to want to cut off a limb because they don't feel like its apart of their body, but then accept the same mentality for someone who wants to change their sex because they 'feel' as being a 100% rational decision. But then there are further people on that spectrum who think that decision can be made by a child so I don't know if they care about rationality. *and yes I believe I'm using feel as lack of a better term*
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51638643]Because being trans is icky and gross to a lot of ignorant people, and those people like to pretend that they have everyone's best interest in mind when trying to deny equal treatment and healthcare to certain groups.[/QUOTE] I think this more has to do with the guying being in prison and it being paid for by tax payers. If it were cancer treatment or life-saving medication, I think it would be far more acceptable. Everyone always cries "Transphobia!" any time someone isn't OK with a gender reassignment surgery. A surgery like that is an extremely drastic and costly thing, and there are alternatives that aren't usually probed before people diagnose themselves with such an issue. [editline]8th January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Xonax;51638704]I never said they should pay for it themselves.[/QUOTE] Lol if the taxpayers don't pay for it, and the prisoner doesn't, then who's gonna pay for it? Start a gofundme page?
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51639207]I think this more has to do with the guying being in prison and it being paid for by tax payers. If it were cancer treatment or life-saving medication, I think it would be far more acceptable. Everyone always cries "Transphobia!" any time someone isn't OK with a gender reassignment surgery. A surgery like that is an extremely drastic and costly thing, and there are alternatives that aren't usually probed before people diagnose themselves with such an issue.[/QUOTE] You don't know what you're talking about. I started questioning in March of last year after years of unexplained dissatisfaction with my appearance, major insecurities which kept me from dating, a massive sense of inadequacy, and so on. I began seeing a gender therapist that month because one happened to be available easily through my university, and continued to do so, regularly, for 6 months, all the while continuously asking myself whether I really knew what I wanted. In November of last year, I started HRT and question myself on a daily basis so that I always know that I want to take the next dose. My point is that I never "diagnosed myself." I spent 6 months following my therapist's advice, discussing with other trans people through a group therapy program, and challenging my own comfort zones. But in the end, it was my therapist which diagnosed me as gender dysphoric under the DSM and wrote a letter recommending me for treatment. While it was technically possible for me to bypass this therapy and get hormones through informed consent, that's definitely not how the prison system would handle gender therapy. Surgeries are no different; no prison is going to consent to a drastic medical procedure of this type if the patient isn't properly diagnosed by professionals. But what I especially have a problem with is your attitude that you can pick and choose what health care to provide to whom, regardless of medical opinions. Just like in my previous post, I ask, is it unethical to deny psychological health care to suicidal prisoners? If so, then why does it suddenly become okay if the prisoner happens to be trans?
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51639294]You don't know what you're talking about. I started questioning in March of last year after years of unexplained dissatisfaction with my appearance, major insecurities which kept me from dating, a massive sense of inadequacy, and so on. [b]I began seeing a gender therapist[/b] that month because one happened to be available easily through my university, and continued to do so, regularly, for 6 months, all the while continuously asking myself whether I really knew what I wanted. In November of last year, I started HRT and question myself on a daily basis so that I always know that I want to take the next dose.[/quote] The line I bolded is the step a some people tend to skip, which is where the line in my prior post "...before people diagnose themselves with such an issue" comes from. I feel I should state this for the sake of the discussion; I don't know a lot of gender dysphoria and similar disorders, outside of what I have read, because I myself have never experienced them nor know anyone personally who has. I have nothing against people who are homosexual or people who wish to transition or have transitioned. So you're right, I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to personal experiences, but that doesn't discredit me at all. [QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51639294] My point is that I never "diagnosed myself." I spent 6 months following my therapist's advice, discussing with other trans people through a group therapy program, and challenging my own comfort zones. But in the end, it was my therapist which diagnosed me as gender dysphoric under the DSM and wrote a letter recommending me for treatment. While it was technically possible for me to bypass this therapy and get hormones through informed consent, that's definitely not how the prison system would handle gender therapy. Surgeries are no different; no prison is going to consent to a drastic medical procedure of this type if the patient isn't properly diagnosed by professionals.[/quote] Heres the thing; US healthcare sucks and prison healthcare is even worse. Furthermore, the article I read about the inmate in question doesn't explain what sort of medical attention the inmate received or didn't receive, or what sort of therapy or psychological help the inmate received or didn't receive. From the way it's worded, it sounds like they're jumping straight to reassignment surgery, so thats what I assumed. Correct me if I'm wrong. [QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51639294] But what I especially have a problem with is your attitude that you can pick and choose what health care to provide to whom, regardless of medical opinions. Just like in my previous post, I ask, is it unethical to deny psychological health care to suicidal prisoners? If so, then why does it suddenly become okay if the prisoner happens to be trans?[/QUOTE] I never implied that prisoners or people in general should be denied healthcare. Going straight to reassignment surgery is like amputating a pinky because its sore. Explore other options first, like you did, with therapy and psychologists to see if theres a deeper rooted problem causing these suicidal tendencies. I think it is unethical to deny a prisoner psychological healthcare, but thats just it. I think this prisoner should be seeing a psychologist and trying other options before jumping straight to gender reassignment. This surgery may not even solve their issues.
I don't know about you, but if this person killed my whole family, and now gets his sex reassignment paid by tax payers, which includes myself, I find it kinda fucked up.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51636369][url]http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120[/url] Suicide mortality rate almost 20 fold that of the comparable non transgender population. [editline]7th January 2017[/editline] False equivalency. [editline]7th January 2017[/editline] She will now be relocated to a female prison as well.[/QUOTE] Ah yes, the infamously anti-LGBT psychiatrist Paul R. McHugh [quote]He has said that medical treatment for transgender youth is “like performing liposuction on an anorexic child”,[18] described post-operative transgender women as “caricatures of women” because the surgery failed to change many of their male traits,[17] and stated that “The transgendered suffer a disorder of 'assumption.'”[16] McHugh considers homosexuality to be an “erroneous desire”[19] and supported California Proposition 8.[20] He co-authored a criticism of medical treatment for transgender youth[21] published by the American College of Pediatricians.[/quote] He's a quack [url]http://transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51639361]:words:[/QUOTE] You originally said there are other avenues which "aren't usually" explored. Your words make it sound like the [I]majority[/I] of trans people skip out on professional help, skip out on hormone therapy, ignore other possibilities, and go straight for SRS. That's wrong, and you're backpedaling by now saying "some people," which of course are weasel words. How many people? Is it enough to be significant to this case? The discussion at large? There's no way of knowing, but you're just going to take it for granted anyway that there's enough people out there who want to recklessly have their junk operated on without going through proper treatment first so that it sounds like the objections you're supporting carry weight. As I said before, I went through a standardized process which involved professional and community help, which is the route that the majority of trans people take. Further, those who self-medicate often do so because they can't afford professional treatment, not because they had the opportunity to get professional help and declined it. By insisting that the majority "diagnose themselves," you're undermining the credibility of trans people's need for treatment. Your second point, "US Healthcare sucks," makes no sense. Doctors, especially those working for the state prison system, aren't going to operate on a person's genitals unless that person has a damned good reason to make it happen. There are standards for these things, just like the DSM standards I had to meet to qualify for insurance-assisted hormone treatment. Let me repeat that for you. [B]Doctors aren't going to operate on a person's genitals unless that person has legitimate medical need.[/B] The article explains that this inmate was suicidal, had been trying to transition since age 19, had been in contact with psychological councilors in the prison system, and that just about everyone is on the same page that SRS was the correct thing to do. So when you say: [quote]I think it is unethical to deny a prisoner psychological healthcare, but thats just it. I think this prisoner should be seeing a psychologist and trying other options before jumping straight to gender reassignment. This surgery may not even solve their issues[/quote] We know that: 1. She has already explored said options and has the express recommendation of the prison system's psychologists 2. While the surgery isn't guaranteed to solve every problem, the consensus is that it will be helpful, and far better than doing nothing 3. Given the above, if you really believe it's unethical to deny a prisoner psychological health care, then it follows that you must support this procedure. Continuing to try to find reasons to delay or withhold treatment ("maybe there's a ~deeper reason~ she's suicidal, guys! The fact that she tried to amputate her own genitals as a teenager might just be a red herring!" :eng101s:) just makes you look like a gatekeeper, and it's even sillier when you admit yourself that you don't know all that much about the disorder and you don't personally know anyone who has it. So who are you to judge whether the inmate [I]really[/I] needs this treatment? You didn't say they should be denied, per say, you just said that people are justifiably upset about having to pay for treatments, which you did your best to paint as unnecessary, when you were clearly talking out of your ass. This sort of thing leads to general public misconceptions and actually hurts people. I am asking you, for the sake of doing the right thing, to defer to the judgement of medical professionals and the trans people in this thread who recognize that this was an appropriate allocation of health resources in the prison system.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;51639447]I don't know about you, but if this person killed my whole family, and now gets his sex reassignment paid by tax payers, which includes myself, I find it kinda fucked up.[/QUOTE] CarnolfMeatla observed here being stunned at the fact that prisoners are given healthcare, and that it comes from taxes. and interesting casual inclusion of transphobia.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51639823]CarnolfMeatla observed here being stunned at the fact that prisoners are given healthcare, and that it comes from taxes. and interesting casual inclusion of transphobia.[/QUOTE] I think it is fair to show the ridiculous situation of priority/welfare here that a life sentenced murderer can get a extremely expensive surgery for free while people in the same country in public life have no such amenity and actually have to congregate taxes to pay for that surgery. It's not about being transphobic, the situation would be still pointed out if the person was to get a surgery of comparable worth, but not immediately life threatening, like a modern prosthetic limb for example. Now people will argue the person's life is tied to the surgery and to deny it would be forcing cruel suffering, but all I have to say to that is the guy is locked up for life. There is no rehabilitation argument here. His life is objectively a cruel suffering already, but one that he deserved for perishing another's forever.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51639912]I think it is fair to show the ridiculous situation of priority/welfare here that a life sentenced murderer can get a extremely expensive surgery for free while people in the same country in public life have no such amenity and actually have to congregate taxes to pay for that surgery.[/QUOTE] You've identified the problem, you now have three options: 1. Strip healthcare from prisoners (severe human rights and ethics violation). 2. National healthcare for citizens (your party of choice is firmly against this). 3. Do nothing and complain (a favorite of both democrats and republicans).
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51639823]CarnolfMeatla observed here being stunned at the fact that prisoners are given healthcare, and that it comes from taxes. and interesting casual inclusion of transphobia.[/QUOTE] How is what he said transphobic?
[QUOTE=Tudd;51639912]I think it is fair to show the ridiculous situation of priority/welfare here that a life sentenced murderer can get a extremely expensive surgery for free while people in the same country in public life have no such amenity and actually have to congregate taxes to pay for that surgery.[/QUOTE] I support universal healthcare but I can't quite entirely agree with that. When you're in prison your autonomy and freedom have been taken away (usually rightfully so,) and because of that you are completely their responsibility. I have to again ask, what alternative for prisoners? Paying for it themselves? The general population isn't some institution like a prison's responsibility because they're free, so ideologically Republicans & some Dems can say "get a job, and pay for it yourself." Again I still support universal healthcare but they aren't the same situations. [QUOTE=Hobo4President;51639926]How is what he said transphobic?[/QUOTE] Referring to the prisoner as a he.
When society decides to institute imprisonment as part of its justice system, it implicitly agrees to feed, clothe, and provide medical treatment for said prisoners, regardless of what they are in for. This includes treatment for gender dysphoria, which sex reassignment surgery is a component of. If you disagree with this decision, you are either against providing medical treatment for all prisoners, or just plain transphobic. I'm not sure which is worse.
[img]http://www.pressdemocrat.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=vvktMrh3KfKzw2u207t21c$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYsoTAfkU_qd7kDmFp5lF_7sWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg[/img] [sp]Moist[/sp] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting" - Bradyns))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Tudd;51639912]I think it is fair to show the ridiculous situation of priority/welfare here that a life sentenced murderer can get a extremely expensive surgery for free while people in the same country in public life have no such amenity and actually have to congregate taxes to pay for that surgery. It's not about being transphobic, the situation would be still pointed out if the person was to get a surgery of comparable worth, but not immediately life threatening, like a modern prosthetic limb for example. Now people will argue the person's life is tied to the surgery and to deny it would be forcing cruel suffering, but all I have to say to that is the guy is locked up for life. There is no rehabilitation argument here. His life is objectively a cruel suffering already, but one that he deserved for perishing another's forever.[/QUOTE] I'd imagine that most of the people who support this procedure in prisons would support a healthcare system that uses taxes to subsidize it in the "real world".
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51636918]But here's the deal: When treating a Transgender person, I doubt you could ever truly make them comfortable with who they are as long as their brain and their body are in fundamental disagreement. That leaves you with four options: 1. Do nothing. Extremely unethical and will result in a higher suicide rate. 2. You can try to convert them to "normal". Extremely unethical and will result in a higher suicide rate. 3. Brain surgery rewire the brain to fit their body. Not only is the technology not quite here yet, but it raises ethical concerns about where the usage limits should be for that sort of tech. If it's okay to 'treat' someone who is trans, is it okay to try the same for someone who doesn't like themselves? What about corrective surgery for other mentally ill, or as forced reformation of convicts? 4. HRT and SRS to change their bodies to match the brain. Possible with current technology and new technology can only make the transition smoother. While there are changes to the brain, they come naturally instead of at the end of a scalpel, and are much less drastic than the above. So 1 and 2 are not even considerable, it's basically conversion of gays all over again, we know how well that works. 3 is not quite possible yet and raises a lot of concerns, rightfully so. So in my opinion, 4 is the best solution and the one we should continue to expand upon.[/QUOTE] Please explain how 3 is not the best possible solution? Someone feeling comfortable with what they HAVE should, in my opinion, be the goal we strive for. SRS and HRT don't really play out as well as many people would hope for, and they can both go horribly wrong. In both cases, sex organs stop functioning properly as well. People commit suicide for going sterile alone, and what if someone's not happy with the outcome of an irreversible surgery?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51641205]I'd imagine that most of the people who support this procedure in prisons would support a healthcare system that uses taxes to subsidize it in the "real world".[/QUOTE] That has nothing to with this situation in it's current circumstance being right or wrong.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51641515]That has nothing to with this situation in it's current circumstance being right or wrong.[/QUOTE] Sure but your argument is that prisoners should suffer like the rest of it while their argument is that healthcare should be a right for everyone, not just an obligation by the state to prisoners serving their sentences.
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51639510]You originally said there are other avenues which "aren't usually" explored. Your words make it sound like the [I]majority[/I] of trans people skip out on professional help, skip out on hormone therapy, ignore other possibilities, and go straight for SRS. That's wrong, and you're backpedaling by now saying "some people," which of course are weasel words. How many people? Is it enough to be significant to this case? The discussion at large? There's no way of knowing, but you're just going to take it for granted anyway that there's enough people out there who want to recklessly have their junk operated on without going through proper treatment first so that it sounds like the objections you're supporting carry weight. As I said before, I went through a standardized process which involved professional and community help, which is the route that the majority of trans people take. Further, those who self-medicate often do so because they can't afford professional treatment, not because they had the opportunity to get professional help and declined it. By insisting that the majority "diagnose themselves," you're undermining the credibility of trans people's need for treatment. Your second point, "US Healthcare sucks," makes no sense. Doctors, especially those working for the state prison system, aren't going to operate on a person's genitals unless that person has a damned good reason to make it happen. There are standards for these things, just like the DSM standards I had to meet to qualify for insurance-assisted hormone treatment. Let me repeat that for you. [B]Doctors aren't going to operate on a person's genitals unless that person has legitimate medical need.[/B] The article explains that this inmate was suicidal, had been trying to transition since age 19, had been in contact with psychological councilors in the prison system, and that just about everyone is on the same page that SRS was the correct thing to do. So when you say: We know that: 1. She has already explored said options and has the express recommendation of the prison system's psychologists 2. While the surgery isn't guaranteed to solve every problem, the consensus is that it will be helpful, and far better than doing nothing 3. Given the above, if you really believe it's unethical to deny a prisoner psychological health care, then it follows that you must support this procedure. Continuing to try to find reasons to delay or withhold treatment ("maybe there's a ~deeper reason~ she's suicidal, guys! The fact that she tried to amputate her own genitals as a teenager might just be a red herring!" :eng101s:) just makes you look like a gatekeeper, and it's even sillier when you admit yourself that you don't know all that much about the disorder and you don't personally know anyone who has it. So who are you to judge whether the inmate [I]really[/I] needs this treatment? You didn't say they should be denied, per say, you just said that people are justifiably upset about having to pay for treatments, which you did your best to paint as unnecessary, when you were clearly talking out of your ass. This sort of thing leads to general public misconceptions and actually hurts people. I am asking you, for the sake of doing the right thing, to defer to the judgement of medical professionals and the trans people in this thread who recognize that this was an appropriate allocation of health resources in the prison system.[/QUOTE] Like I said in my prior post, the article I read said nothing of any past medical attention said inmate had received in regards to their psychological issues. I'm basing my entire posts off that [b]ASSUMPTION[/B] that they hadn't received any past help up until this point. Like I said in my prior post, [b]correct me if I'm wrong[/b]. Can you please link me the article where it describes the past medical help this inmate has received?
[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51638569][url=https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/3rws5s/comprehensive_defense_against_antitrans_talking/]Points number 3 and especially 6, please.[/url] Moreover, there's no way that healthcare providers will provide access to surgery without documented medical need. That need is established through therapy, which was clearly provided to the prisoner described in the OP.[/QUOTE] I will post point 3 specifically; [quote]3.) "The statistics on transgender suicide rates prove they're mentally unstable." It is accepted within the medical, mental health, and sociological communities that these adverse suicide statistics reflect a combination of minority stress and lack of access to affirming health care. When given access to supportive environments and medical care, quality of life for transgender people (including mental health) is not significantly different from the general population. This minority stress is compounded when you consider that transgender people are experiencing it in relation to a gigantic part of the human experience that has never really been questioned before, at least not in mainstream media like it has in the last few years. Sprinkle on the fact that we still don't fully understand gender in the brain, and you have a recipe for extreme minority stress, self-doubt, self-loathing, and a sense of total hopelessness/loss of identity. The perfect recipe for an emotionally suffering human being.[/quote] The first paragraph links to this study; [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468[/url] Whose conclusion is, [quote]Transwomen have diminished mental health-related quality of life compared with the general female population. However, surgical treatments (e.g. FFS, GRS, or both) are associated with improved mental health-related quality of life.[/quote] This does not line up accurately with the reddit post suggesting, "When given access to supportive environments and medical care, quality of life for transgender people (including mental health) is not significantly different from the general population." I would like to go deeper into it, but the study has a hefty paywall and I can't find a free copy to keep looking. Basically I would like to see the actual stats now that I can see the reddit post took some liberty on this study for interpreting. Also the Minority stress point is so debatable and doesn't really pertain what I am arguing with the surgeries and studies. Now the reason I am not specifically point 6 is that it has to do with therapy that converts people's identities. This conversion therapy is not what I am advocating for so I don't need to address it.
[QUOTE=Radical_ed;51641500]Please explain how 3 is not the best possible solution? Someone feeling comfortable with what they HAVE should, in my opinion, be the goal we strive for. SRS and HRT don't really play out as well as many people would hope for, and they can both go horribly wrong. In both cases, sex organs stop functioning properly as well. People commit suicide for going sterile alone, and what if someone's not happy with the outcome of an irreversible surgery?[/QUOTE] First off, we don't have the technology to meddle with people's brains in such a way that would change their personality to fit a specific plan. Sure we can change personalities, but that's a side-effect of other (possibly botched) surgery, and the changes are effectively randomized. There's no telling when we'll even have the technology and know-how to alter someone's personality by rearranging parts of brain. For all I know, that technology could be 100 years away from now. Second off there are severe ethical questions about doing something like this. The brain is the person themself, the rest of the body is just a high-tech vessel for it. When a person goes brain-dead, we consider them not even worth keeping alive unless they're an organ doner, which we will keep alive until the body can be harvested to save others. It raises serious ethical concerns when you want to go change a person's brain like that. If you need to change a female brain into a male brain, that's a lot of rearranging and 'reprogramming' for lack of a better term. If you change a person too much, that begs the question: are they still the same person, or did you just "kill" the old person and replace them with a new one?.
[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51641572]Can you please link me the article where it describes the past medical help this inmate has received?[/QUOTE] The article first establishes that the basis of the California law is in the 8th Amendment, which guarantees access to all medically-necessary procedures. The decision to grant Quine an SRS procedure had to be deemed necessary by a doctor. "Quine told a prison psychologist who recommended her for the operation that it would bring a 'drastic, internal completeness.'" -Also from the article. Quine had been in contact with a psychologist, who, as I explained earlier, would not have provided the above recommendation without following established medical standards and procedures. [I]Assuming[/I] that this law got passed to allow any prisoner to just say "hey, I'm trans, pay for this surgery," and that the prison system just said, "sure, here you go," is [I]completely ridiculous.[/I] You're standing here saying "I don't trust the doctors to follow their standards, I don't trust the psychologists to follow the law, and I don't trust the government to pass common-sense limitations on expensive procedures, prove it to me that this isn't all a giant scam." No, I'm done with you. Healthcare doesn't work like that, in prisons or out. [QUOTE=Tudd;51641584]I will post point 3 specifically; The first paragraph links to this study; [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468[/url] Whose conclusion is, (quote) This does not line up accurately with the reddit post suggesting, "When given access to supportive environments and medical care, quality of life for transgender people (including mental health) is not significantly different from the general population."[/quote] The results section of the study breaks down like this- 1. By default, trans women suffer from lower mental health QOL. 2. Those who have had surgery report higher QOL. 3. No single type of surgery, whether SRS/GRS (gender reassignment surgery) or FFS (facial feminization surgery), stood out as more effective than others. The question is, how improved is the QOL compared to the default. According to the Reddit community which actually has access to the text of the article, the post-surgery QOL experienced by trans women in the study is roughly equivalent to the general female population. Point #3 is meant to show that this study covers a range of treatment options and not just SRS. [I]The important takeaway is that when trans people are given treatment which lines up with their needs, they experience significantly better QOL.[/I] [quote]Also the Minority stress point is so debatable and doesn't really pertain what I am arguing with the surgeries and studies.[/QUOTE] It's an intervening variable and so I feel that it's important to note for policy reasons. Thelurker1234 also addressed this on page 2. [QUOTE=thelurker1234;51637184]I could apply that to antidepressents, chemo, etc.. Those things don't happen on their own as treatments and are coupled with other things, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be done.[/QUOTE] I trust the Reddit post's integrity here, but let's take a hypothetical and say that they're spinning the study results. What if there's still a QOL gap between post-operation trans women and the general population? Does that mean treatment has failed? I would argue that it's unfair to expect any treatment to solve the QOL question 100%, because trans people by default experience significant discrimination. Trans people are frequently ostracized by family and friends, lose access to their places of worship, and are often fired unjustly. Saying "I don't care about their minority status, show me the stats" sets you up for an entirely unfair conclusion, which is that gender affirmative therapy isn't effective enough to justify its use. In other words, you're trying to support a defeatist viewpoint by selectively ignoring important pieces of the puzzle. [quote]Now the reason I am not specifically point 6 is that it has to do with therapy that converts people's identities. This conversion therapy is not what I am advocating for so I don't need to address it.[/QUOTE] Usually when people oppose some forms of gender therapy (like SRS or FFS for prisoners), they also oppose gender affirmation therapy in general. That's clearly not what you're doing, so we can chalk that up to a misunderstanding on my part. One last thing: [QUOTE=Tudd;51639912]Now people will argue the person's life is tied to the surgery and to deny it would be forcing cruel suffering, but all I have to say to that is the guy is locked up for life. There is no rehabilitation argument here. His life is objectively a cruel suffering already, but one that he deserved for perishing another's forever.[/QUOTE] I addressed that here: [QUOTE=Sega Saturn;51638726]The courts sentence prisoners to jail. Not to humiliation, not to torture, not to starvation, and not to anything resembling hostile, negligent health care... ...Should a prisoner with a history of psychotic behavior be left untreated because they no longer deserve sanity?[/quote] The same can be said here- the court sentenced Quine to life in prison, nothing more. Watching a prisoner continually attempt suicide due to a documented mental illness and failing to provide treatment which doctors and psychologists have recommended as a twisted form of additional punishment is a violation of the 8th Amendment.
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