UN official voices deep concern as Hamas raids offices of aid groups - Polidicks

it's also VERY efficient in oppressing the gazans also, source [editline]07:59PM[/editline] and Hamas has a ton of tunnels you tool [editline]08:00PM[/editline] if you're a military orgnisation, it's not very hard to dig a tunnel under a wall

[QUOTE=Warhol;22491440]it's also VERY efficient in oppressing the gazans also, source [editline]07:59PM[/editline] and Hamas has a ton of tunnels you tool [editline]08:00PM[/editline] if you're a military orgnisation, it's not very hard to dig a tunnel under a wall[/QUOTE] I think you just proved that the wall is there for a reason.

[QUOTE=Thom12255;22491679]I think you just proved that the wall is there for a reason.[/QUOTE] To oppress gazans?

[QUOTE=Warhol;22491957]To oppress gazans?[/QUOTE] So, the wall "oppresses" them by not letting them smuggle weapons in and get suicide bombers out? Before the wall was built, you could hear about a suicide bombing in the news every other Tuesday (not kidding, you really could). Since the wall was built, they have stopped. It doesn't stop weapon smuggling completely, but it does make it a lot harder. Israel wants to protect it's citizens, boo fucking hoo.

[QUOTE=Glorbo;22492645]So, the wall "oppresses" them by not letting them smuggle weapons in and get suicide bombers out? Before the wall was built, you could hear about a suicide bombing in the news every other Tuesday (not kidding, you really could). Since the wall was built, they have stopped. It doesn't stop weapon smuggling completely, but it does make it a lot harder. Israel wants to protect it's citizens, boo fucking hoo.[/QUOTE] So cutting gas, water, food and medical supplies is protecting Israel? You people have not provided any source. and hamas can fucking dig tunnels to bring weapons in.

[QUOTE=Warhol;22492898]So cutting gas, water, food and medical supplies is protecting Israel? [/QUOTE] Were talking about the wall, not the blockade. [QUOTE=Warhol;22492898] You people have not provided any source.[/QUOTE] Well take a fucking guess why. Even when we give it to international organizations Hamas raids them. Food is limited not by quantity, but by the items allowed to be brought in. Medical supplies are unlimited and people from gaza can come (and they do come) to receive medical treatment in Israel. [QUOTE=Warhol;22492898]and hamas can fucking dig tunnels to bring weapons in.[/QUOTE] Yeah, because you know, digging a 200 meter tunnel is exactly the same as just crossing the boarder. Again, it makes things a lot harder for Hamas and gives Israel something to do in order to stop them (like finding and collapsing the tunnels).

[QUOTE=Warhol;22492898] You people have not provided any source. [/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_conflict#Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier[/url] "The Gaza Strip has been separated from Israel by the Israeli Gaza Strip barrier since 1996, which has helped reduce infiltration into Israel." [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier[/url] "From the Israeli perspective, the Israel–Gaza Strip barrier is a security barrier intended by Israel to control the movement of people between the Gaza Strip and Israel, and to attempt to improve security in Israel."

[QUOTE=Glorbo;22493517]Were talking about the wall, not the blockade.[/quote] The wall does that you lunatic [quote]Well take a fucking guess why. Even when we give it to international organizations Hamas raids them.[/quote] Hamas is not the issue here. [quote]Food is limited not by quantity, but by the items allowed to be brought in. Medical supplies are unlimited and people from gaza can come (and they do come) to receive medical treatment in Israel.[/quote] lol, you think it's that fucking simple. [quote]Yeah, because you know, digging a 200 meter tunnel is exactly the same as just crossing the boarder. Again, it makes things a lot harder for Hamas and gives Israel something to do in order to stop them (like finding and collapsing the tunnels).[/QUOTE] Making things superficial doesn't mean you've made an argument. you're defending an apartheid wall ffs [editline]10:15PM[/editline] [QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22494231][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_conflict#Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier[/url] "The Gaza Strip has been separated from Israel by the Israeli Gaza Strip barrier since 1996, which has helped reduce infiltration into Israel." [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Gaza_Strip_barrier[/url] "From the Israeli perspective, the Israel–Gaza Strip barrier is a security barrier intended by Israel to control the movement of people between the Gaza Strip and Israel, and to attempt to improve security in Israel."[/QUOTE] Are you fucking kidding me, burnemdown? That was the most fucking shoddy source I've seen in a long time. [editline]10:16PM[/editline] stop only quoting wikifuckingpedia, jesus everyone asks you to have reasonable fucking sources, not ONE fucking shoddy source for the whole thing.

I don't see what's the problem with my source. Perhaps you can point that out?

First one just makes a claim, nothing surround it whatsoever. second is a claim on the Israeli's part, which is pretty null [editline]10:28PM[/editline] stop using wikipedia so fucking much. you have the whole fucking world at your hands, stop using some shitty website. [editline]10:30PM[/editline] Daniel Schueftan lol

If you think what's written is wrong, delete it. If it is indeed wrong it won't be reverted.

what?

[QUOTE=Thom12255;22411298][QUOTE=starpluck;22411184]Free Gaza from Hamas? The only reason why Hamas was voted was to free Palestine from Israel.[/QUOTE] Starpluck, are you sure you're not from Nazi Germany?[/QUOTE] :godwin: [editline]09:21PM[/editline] The idea that Palestinians represent any real threat to Israel's future existence is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=toxicpiano;22412240]What the fuck is wrong with you, innocent people still died. Why do you feel you can justify civilian deaths on one side and not the other? All civilian deaths are unacceptable. If you look at The Troubles in Northern Ireland, you will realise that peace only came about after the terrorist and paramilitary groups stopped killing civilians and engaged in a full (secret at first) diplomatic process. On the subject of rockets, wikipedia says that 2378 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel in just 2008. If Mexico was firing large numbers of rockets and mortars over the US border you can guarantee that the US government would respond with crush about it, when they would support exactly the same actions if it were happening to there country. I'm not suggesting that the blockade on Gaza is right, but suggesting that one side is completely whiter than white and saintly and the other is some kind of devil worshipping murder machine is ridiculous. In fact I would say people who take sides in this conflict, particularly those who don't live anywhere near the two countries are ignorant at best. It's an intensely complicated conflict that isn't black and white by any means. It's not a second world war where there is one obvious good side and one obvious bad side. Also your points about Hamas not being a religious organisation are completely wrong. As previous posters have said, they are most definitely an Islamic organisation and set some of their goals around that.[/QUOTE] way to ignore the best post yet in this thread everybody

The issue of the Gazan wall and larger blockade is complex. Foremostly, you can't argue that the wall was built specifically for the purpose of lowering Gazan standards of living. That's just implausible. The wall was put up for the purpose of aiding Israeli security and halting Hamas attacks - in which it has undoubtedly aided. It also has an negative impact upon most average Gazan people. This is bad, of course, and shouldn't happen - however, there is simply no other viable option at present. Should the Israelis suddenly throw up their arms in defeat, tear down the wall and lift their blockade, a number of things will happen. Hamas attacks will increase, and more Israeli citizens will die - something the state will never tolerate. Secondly, Hamas will be able to truck in far larger and more advanced amounts of weaponry, greater than the limited amount they could smuggle in through tunnels. Given the hatred Hamas possesses for Israel and their tendency to use violence against combatants and non-combatants alike as a tool to achieve their goals, Israel will never allow this to happen. Given that a sudden influx of weaponry may serve to give Hamas confidence, it may be hypothesised that this could lead to a(nother) future war between Israel and Hamas - which will kill far more people. Thus, while the current blockade/wall is a poor long-term solution, there is nothing else more viable - at present. I daresay it will take a radical restructuring of Hamas' leadership and ideals, with following like-minded actions by the Israelis, for there to be any [I]good[/I] long-term future in this region of the Middle East. My two cents.

[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;22506666]The issue of the Gazan wall and larger blockade is complex. Foremostly, you can't argue that the wall was built specifically for the purpose of lowering Gazan standards of living. That's just implausible. The wall was put up for the purpose of aiding Israeli security and halting Hamas attacks - in which it has undoubtedly aided. It also has an negative impact upon most average Gazan people. This is bad, of course, and shouldn't happen - however, there is simply no other viable option at present. Should the Israelis suddenly throw up their arms in defeat, tear down the wall and lift their blockade, a number of things will happen. Hamas attacks will increase, and more Israeli citizens will die - something the state will never tolerate. Secondly, Hamas will be able to truck in far larger and more advanced amounts of weaponry, greater than the limited amount they could smuggle in through tunnels. Given the hatred Hamas possesses for Israel and their tendency to use violence against combatants and non-combatants alike as a tool to achieve their goals, Israel will never allow this to happen. Given that a sudden influx of weaponry may serve to give Hamas confidence, it may be hypothesised that this could lead to a(nother) future war between Israel and Hamas - which will kill far more people. Thus, while the current blockade/wall is a poor long-term solution, there is nothing else more viable - at present. I daresay it will take a radical restructuring of Hamas' leadership and ideals, with following like-minded actions by the Israelis, for there to be any [I]good[/I] long-term future in this region of the Middle East. My two cents.[/QUOTE] You honestly think that the Hamas have enough money to buy weapons capable of defeating the IDF? Why do you think they are shooting bottle rockets at them right now? Besides, if Hamas were to step it up, Israels big brother ( :fsmug: ) would step in right away and liberate the shit out of the Palestines.

They have shitloads of money that they receive from Iran and Syria and Saudi Arabia, and if the blockade is lifted they'll receive even more, and loads of weapons much stronger than the shit they build without outside support.

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22506967]They have shitloads of money that they receive from Iran and Syria and Saudi Arabia, and if the blockade is lifted they'll receive even more, and loads of weapons much stronger than the shit they build without outside support.[/QUOTE] Then Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia would be funding a war they can't win.

Well Israel isn't willing to risk that.

[QUOTE=Idi Amin;22503076]way to ignore the best post yet in this thread everybody[/QUOTE] thanks I see starpluck hasn't bothered to reply

[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;22507056]Well Israel isn't willing to risk that.[/QUOTE] The spokesman of Israel ladies and gentleman. Yeah, there's an easy end to this, Israel dissolves it state.

Yeah, like that's a viable solution. -snip-

it is, since Israel seems to fucking refuse to stop fucking with the Palestinians. [editline]11:52PM[/editline] so it's either go away, or stay and fight.

Hey, if everyone in Israel would want to return to Europe or get our own state in America or something I'd be the first on the plane, but it's kind of a longshot, so I guess we'll just stick around, you know.

yeah israel ain't going anywhere [editline]04:07PM[/editline] they should try to get along though

We'll give them '49 borders, but no Palestinian "right to return" thing to Israel proper. Deal or no deal????

Palestinian state first.

[QUOTE=toxicpiano;22507288]thanks I see starpluck hasn't bothered to reply[/QUOTE] You should know I'm not going waste my time if you state a baseless claim which I just refuted in this thread, with evidence to prove so. ("Hamas being a religious organization") I also don't argue with strawmans or people who can't read by thinking I justified civilans death.

If Hamas had more effective rockets they'd use them. Haven't the number of rockets fired at Israel declined since the blockade was put in place?

[QUOTE=Neolk;22549536]If Hamas had more effective rockets they'd use them. Haven't the number of rockets fired at Israel declined since the blockade was put in place?[/QUOTE] Yes. IF there was no blockade Iran would be able to give them very powerful rockets that could reach Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem, would be more precise, and would be a lot more deadly. [QUOTE=Warhol;22543030]Palestinian state first.[/QUOTE] What I meant was that A Palestinian state would be declared in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.